The difference between Purdy and Pickett

[feltdizz]

Okay the whole Shanahan thing is getting crazy. They idea that you just scheme guys open in the nfl is ridiculous. If this was the case then Shanahan should be the highest paid guy in the NFL. No need to draft a top QB or Wr's no need to pay anybody, you just need to scheme them open. Shanahan is a good coach but people are getting ridiculous with this scheme talk. The reason the Niners are effecient on offense is because they are a matchup nightmare, CMC, Deebo, Aiyuk, Kittle, a good Oline, Elite defense. Where was the "scheme" when he went 4-12, 6-10, 6-10?

the scheme was drafting in the top 10 for 4 years.

This is what I posted earlier about these guys swinging on the flavor of the month but not being able to stomach the down years to get there. These dudes can’t even appreciate non-losing seasons while rebuilding so you know a 4 win season would send them over the edge. Look how they were acting at 2-6?

[feltdizz]

Of course you need talent, but the Steelers had that kind of talent in the mid 2010's and never saw guys running 5 yards wide open all game. AB was unnecessarily brilliant at contested catches, people remarked at Le'Veon's style as he stopped, started, juked, and danced around OL. One can also grow as a playcaller and schemer, and right now Shanny is the best, although there's probably less of a distance between him and #2 than there is between Mike Tomlin's Latest Friend and #31.

Maybe Mike Wallace was too long ago but that dude was always running wide open.. same was Sweed, he just couldn’t catch, lol.

Personally I think its mostly talent since it wasn’t working early on when they team was winning 4 games.

[feltdizz]

Building a team that can be very competitive no matter who's a QB means that you have a good scheme IMO.

true.. but that “scheme” wasn’t built in 2 years. That scheme takes time AND talent.

I watched a pregame before a 49ers game and they talked about how the 49ers had more 1st and 2nd round picks on OL and DL than any other NFL team the last 5 or 6 years.

What folks are forgetting is this wasn’t a 2 year project. Not saying Canada deserves 6 years but at least give Canada and Kenny an offseason? Give Khan and Weidl his first draft?

[feltdizz]

No if the scheme is whats causing guys to get open then it shouldnt matter who you plug in. They weren't successful with anybody at QB, that is why i posted his losing seasons.

correct, and I think once the OL is solidified and the DL adds some youth we will see a better “scheme” because what you are really seeing is players maturing and getting comfortable in their assignments.

we already started seeing the blocking on the running game start to gel.

[papillon]

Of course you need talent, but the Steelers had that kind of talent in the mid 2010's and never saw guys running 5 yards wide open all game. AB was unnecessarily brilliant at contested catches, people remarked at Le'Veon's style as he stopped, started, juked, and danced around OL. One can also grow as a playcaller and schemer, and right now Shanny is the best, although there's probably less of a distance between him and #2 than there is between Mike Tomlin's Latest Friend and #31.

The highlighted text is simply conjecture on your part to fit the narrative that the Steelers have always had poor OCs. I certainly don't recall Ben having a hard time finding open receivers in general, of course, there were games that happened but overall I think Ben was throwing to WRs that were "NFL open"

Pappy

[Steel Maniac]

One can only deal with what they have in front of them. We know SF has the better coach who knows how to use his better weapons, but at the end of the day, each QB can only be judged within their own environment. This "if B was in A's position he would produce like A does" has been played for decades, and it's just an escape from reality. Pickett can only be judged in his environment, and there's hope for improvement.

Definitely there's hope; Some are saying that Tomlin had the training wheels on the offense. I get that. And I would suspect there's a lot of truth in that being we had a rookie QB. But they can't deny that the offense looked just as bad with Ben running it until he went no huddle. THAT'S the part that has everybody hammering Canada because no one sees any difference between when Ben ran it and when KP ran it.

Canada/Tomlin (whoever is running the offense) needs to take this offense to an NFL level season. It's high school passing concepts needs to be reimagined into today's NFL passing game. They need to do whatever they need to get it done. Yes KP should be better because of maturation but still, they need to help him by doing the things mentioned.

[hawaiiansteel]

Okay the whole Shanahan thing is getting crazy. They idea that you just scheme guys open in the nfl is ridiculous. If this was the case then Shanahan should be the highest paid guy in the NFL. No need to draft a top QB or Wr's no need to pay anybody, you just need to scheme them open. Shanahan is a good coach but people are getting ridiculous with this scheme talk. The reason the Niners are effecient on offense is because they are a matchup nightmare, CMC, Deebo, Aiyuk, Kittle, a good Oline, Elite defense. Where was the "scheme" when he went 4-12, 6-10, 6-10?

yup, exactly!

[Steel Maniac]

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2022/6/15/23165138/sean-mcvay-kyle-shanahan-scheme-wars-offense-evolution

[Northern_Blitz]

No if the scheme is whats causing guys to get open then it shouldnt matter who you plug in. They weren't successful with anybody at QB, that is why i posted his losing seasons.

Sure, he did have losing seasons. I don't follow them enough to know why.

But what they are doing now is pretty remarkable. And while I guess Philly did something similar with Foles, it doesn't happen very often IMO.

[Northern_Blitz]

true.. but that “scheme” wasn’t built in 2 years. That scheme takes time AND talent.

I watched a pregame before a 49ers game and they talked about how the 49ers had more 1st and 2nd round picks on OL and DL than any other NFL team the last 5 or 6 years.

What folks are forgetting is this wasn’t a 2 year project. Not saying Canada deserves 6 years but at least give Canada and Kenny an offseason? Give Khan and Weidl his first draft?

I don't disagree with any of this.

Kenny and Canada will get an offseason here.

I just would have preferred that we looked for an OC that better fit KP's strengths instead of just going with the guy who happened to be on staff. Especially since that guy has shown little in the way of being a good OC in 2 seasons.

Maybe it works and Canada turns the corner. Not sure there's a ton of evidence for it happening, but it could.

[feltdizz]

Definitely there's hope; What all the some are saying is that Tomlin had the training wheels on the offense. I get that. And I would suspect there's a lot of truth in that being we had a rookie QB. But they can't deny that the offense looked just as bad with Ben running it until he went no huddle. THAT'S the part that has everybody hammering Canada because no one sees any difference between when Ben ran it and when KP ran it.

Canada/Tomlin (whoever is running the offense) needs to take this offense to an NFL level season. It's high school passing concepts needs to be reimagined into today's NFL passing game. They need to do whatever they need to get it done. Yes KP should be better because of maturation but still, they need to help him by doing the things mentioned.

this is false. The offense looked better with Kenny after the bye once the run blocking improved.

Again, Ben only had 3 first downs with his legs. Kenny had 25 I believe. We sustained more drives, had better TOP and probably had more RZ opportunities.

What Kenny and company need to improve on is RZ efficiency. But the offense was better.

How many times did we scream at the TV watching Ben throw short of the sticks on 3rd and 8? I think Kenny did a much better job throwing past the sticks even if we didn’t see the success we wanted.

[feltdizz]

I don't disagree with any of this.

Kenny and Canada will get an offseason here.

I just would have preferred that we looked for an OC that better fit KP's strengths instead of just going with the guy who happened to be on staff. Especially since that guy has shown little in the way of being a good OC in 2 seasons.

Maybe it works and Canada turns the corner. Not sure there's a ton of evidence for it happening, but it could.

I think we have to throw out Ben’s last year. Did Ben buy in? Was it even possible given his age and having Green at Center?

I think its like Leftwich in Tampa or the OC in Green Bay. Can you really get Brady and Rodgers to run your offense as designed given Brady’s limitations and Aaron Rodgers offseason mushroom tea retreats?

I mean, think back to Ben and that offense? 4th and goal from the 20 and we throw a 3 yard swing pass to Najee. That philosophy was dreadful but given Ben’s age and the OL’s struggles he had no choice on some plays and on others he may have been seeing ghost.

We should judge Canada on his first year with Pickett and this upcoming year. 2021 is not part of our offensive philosophy moving forward IMO.

[Northern_Blitz]

I think we have to throw out Ben’s last year. Did Ben buy in? Was it even possible given his age and having Green at Center?

I think its like Leftwich in Tampa or the OC in Green Bay. Can you really get Brady and Rodgers to run your offense as designed given Brady’s limitations and Aaron Rodgers offseason mushroom tea retreats?

I mean, think back to Ben and that offense? 4th and goal from the 20 and we throw a 3 yard swing pass to Najee. That philosophy was dreadful but given Ben’s age and the OL’s struggles he had no choice on some plays and on others he may have been seeing ghost.

We should judge Canada on his first year with Pickett and this upcoming year. 2021 is not part of our offensive philosophy moving forward IMO.

I hope you're right.

But throwing out Ben's last year arguably makes Canada's OC performance worse. At least by PPG.

But without looking at stats, my fear (and what I think we've seen) is that Canada doesn't try to change what he wants to do based on the strengths and weaknesses of the team. Or to try to exploit the weaknesses of the other team. And while I tend not to believe things said in press conferences, the "we don't think that's illegal man downfield, so we're just going to keep doing it that way" comment seems to support this idea. When the refs are consistently saying what you are doing is against the rules, eventually you need to adjust.

Maybe you're right that it's hard to develop an offense that fit old-Ben. And that we didn't want to make it too complicated for Mitch and rookie-Kenny.

But I guess even within those constraints, it feels like we could have been scoring more points. Particularly this season.

Hopefully we get a very leveled up KP (and the rest of the young offense). Because it looks to me like we're really banking on out-executing teams rather than out-scheming them. That can work. And I hope it does. But it seems to me like it would be better to try a little of both.

Edited to add: I agree that the bulk of the improvement in the O seemed to come from better run blocking (and I'd say a healthier Harris too). It sound like the running game is the half of the offense that Canada has less control over, with our OL coaches serving as "run game coordinators".

[blacknblue80s]

This article by Matt Steel at SCI explains it way better than I could. Hopefully it's readable.

I hoped my SteelCityInsider family was watching the San Francisco 49ers carve up the Seattle Seahawks to start the Wildcard round on Saturday.
If so, I have simple questions for you: Can you see it? Isn't it easy to see how Kenny Pickett (https://247sports.com/Player/Kenny-Pickett-81700) and the rest of the Steelers offense can use a similar system to Kyle Shanahan (https://247sports.com/coach/Kyle-Shanahan-3264)'s 49ers?
The 6-1, 220-pound Brock Purdy (https://247sports.com/Player/Brock-Purdy-46039503) shares similarities to the 6-3, 217-pound Pickett. Both can buy time and create plays off script. Both have the athletic foot quickness to get out of the pocket and escape pressure rolling to either side. Pickett has the better arm. While neither Pickett nor Purdy will be able to sling the way Josh Allen (https://247sports.com/Player/Josh-Allen-78109) did to Stefon Diggs (https://247sports.com/Player/Stefon-Diggs-81 on Sunday to set up the Bills' first touchdown, they won't ever have to in an optimal system.
Purdy is already in the optimal system. He threw for 330 yards on 30 attempts Saturday. Eleven yards per attempt will win any game against anybody at any time. The deep over/in-breaking routes were on full display once again for wide-open chunk plays. I couldn't help but become energized just thinking about how Pickett and his skillset would thrive in that system. In fact, the similarities in route-running and shiftiness between Diontae Johnson (https://247sports.com/Player/Diontae-Johnson-77270) and Brandon Aiyuk (https://247sports.com/Player/Brandon-Aiyuk-46048629) were matched, in Johnson-like form, by Aiyuk dropping a touchdown pass.
I'll never for the life of me figure out why the Steelers don't take advantage of Johnson's speed, change-of-direction, and ability to get off the line of scrimmage and run-after-the-catch ability with over routes off play-action.

Pat Freiermuth (https://247sports.com/Player/Pat-Freiermuth-9082 may not have George Kittle (https://247sports.com/Player/George-Kittle-1332's speed, but he has the wiggle and double-move ability to work the seam. The system helped Kittle get wide open again on Saturday. Freiermuth could sure benefit from similar throwing windows.
Jaylen Warren (https://247sports.com/Player/Jaylen-Warren-46045047) isn't Christian McCaffrey (https://247sports.com/Player/Christian-McCaffrey-20462), but Warren has shown the burst necessary to be used on first and second downs from the pistol and shotgun in ways that set up play-action from those formations.
The Steelers have something the 49ers could use in Najee Harris (https://247sports.com/Player/Najee-Harris-62925). Harris is an under-center formation back, unless he's in on third down or end-of-half scenarios. The play-action plays the Detroit Lions run from under center suit a Steelers team in an outdoor, cold-weather stadium in a blue-collar city.
I understand the 49ers have Trent Williams (https://247sports.com/Player/Trent-Williams-3982 and Mike McGlinchey (https://247sports.com/Player/Mike-McGlinchey-14780) at the tackle spots. But if anyone can name their starting center and right guard from Saturday, you're a bigger football junkie than I. For all of their success, the 49ers struggled running inside, with Jake Brendel (https://247sports.com/Player/Jake-Brendel-219) and Daniel Brunskill (https://247sports.com/Player/Daniel-Brunskill-46039155) listed at those respective positions.
That offense churns out points, no matter who's in the lineup. The offense didn't miss a beat when Jauan Jennings (https://247sports.com/Player/Jauan-Jennings-31595) entered for an injured Deebo Samuel (https://247sports.com/Player/Deebo-Samuel-30287) in the last quarter of the regular season.
As for the Lions, they used play-action on a league-high 54% of their passes going into the last game of the regular season. Jared Goff (https://247sports.com/Player/Jared-Goff-18091)'s passer rating for the season of play-action was 125.9. The Lions connected on numerous lay-up chunk plays off play-action, often by rolling right and leaking a tight end left, or vice versa. The Steelers appeared to have two play-action plays. The roll to the right with receivers on all three levels usually ended in a checkdown for little yardage, or a throwaway more often the choice.
On the other side of the spectrum are the 49ers, who successfully run play-action from multiple formations and tempos to consistently set up easy completions over the middle where receivers being on the move allow them to pick up yards after the catch. Even though Purdy averaged 11 yards per pass attempt Saturday, he missed two more play-action attempts early in the game when the ball was wet. Those were passes I don't think Pickett would have missed based on what I've seen from him in the elements.
So there's the dilemma. I love what I see from Matt Canada (https://247sports.com/coach/Matt-Canada-464)'s offense in getting back to a downhill, under-center running game. But without the play-action game, they can't score enough points to beat playoff teams. If Canada can incorporate and teach many of the play-action concepts we see in San Francisco and Detroit, I'm for him coming back. I like the direction of the running game, motions, and jet concepts, but he has to go if he can't incorporate play-action philosophy and doesn't see the value.
I mentioned Brian Griese and Mark Brunell as ideal candidates to replace Canada in a column (https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Article/SteelCityInsider-Matt-Steel-has-some-more-ideas-from-the-state-of-Michigan-about-improving-the-Steelers-offense-and-its-rookie-QB-201636557/) a couple of weeks ago. If Steelers QBs coach Mike Sullivan (https://247sports.com/Coach/Mike-Sullivan-4697) is doing good things with Pickett, then Duce Staley (https://247sports.com/coach/Duce-Staley-321 is also an intriguing candidate. Darrell Bevell (https://247sports.com/Coach/Darrell-Bevell-3250) brings championship pedigree, Shanahan system training, and age where the Steelers wouldn't have to concern themselves with him being hired for a head-coaching gig. But bringing back Canada with the same passing attack philosophy would make the Steelers pretenders once again.

[feltdizz]

I hope you're right.

But throwing out Ben's last year arguably makes Canada's OC performance worse. At least by PPG.

But without looking at stats, my fear (and what I think we've seen) is that Canada doesn't try to change what he wants to do based on the strengths and weaknesses of the team. Or to try to exploit the weaknesses of the other team. And while I tend not to believe things said in press conferences, the "we don't think that's illegal man downfield, so we're just going to keep doing it that way" comment seems to support this idea. When the refs are consistently saying what you are doing is against the rules, eventually you need to adjust.

Maybe you're right that it's hard to develop an offense that fit old-Ben. And that we didn't want to make it too complicated for Mitch and rookie-Kenny.

But I guess even within those constraints, it feels like we could have been scoring more points. Particularly this season.

Hopefully we get a very leveled up KP (and the rest of the young offense). Because it looks to me like we're really banking on out-executing teams rather than out-scheming them. That can work. And I hope it does. But it seems to me like it would be better to try a little of both.

Edited to add: I agree that the bulk of the improvement in the O seemed to come from better run blocking (and I'd say a healthier Harris too). It sound like the running game is the half of the offense that Canada has less control over, with our OL coaches serving as "run game coordinators".

IMO the difference is settling for more FG’s with Kenny in the RZ.

I think if we thew out Canada’s first year we would admit the O was trash with Mitch, Kenny struggled early and after the bye the O turned the corner. Fans might still be mad but I think they may have more optimism because they aren’t using Ben’s last year as an indictment of the offense.

No idea about the amount of RZ trip averages between Ben and Kenny but I wouldn’t be surprised if Kenny had more trips but less success.

I think we will turn more of those FG attempts to TD’s next year. Boz also had a down year as well.