Paul Zeise: Steelers' standard under Mike Tomlin has been lowered

[crushedspirit]

Yeah definitely a question mark how successful Cowher would be in today's game although I do see a lot of similarities with Pete Carroll who's had a good bit of success outside the last couple of seasons. Both helped to build some dominant defenses, offensively challenged at times, emotional guys, some questionable gameday coaching.

The Pens had great players though when they went on a dry spell after that first Cup win with Sid and Malkin, Sullivan's system worked wonders. And yes goaltending is always important, although the system and the players around the goalie play a part in that as well.

As stubborn as Cowher could be at times, he adopted his offense to suit Ben's greatest strengths as a QB. You mentioned that before as well. He would have had some success in today's game in my opinion.

[T.Ferguson]

As stubborn as Cowher could be at times, he adopted his offense to suit Ben's greatest strengths as a QB. You mentioned that before as well. He would have had some success in today's game in my opinion.

Yeah, I was critical of Cowher's playoff performance at times, it was very frustrating to watch some seasons but the SB year to his credit he flipped the script so to speak. What's funny is in Ben's rookie year, I actually forgot about this, Cowher called up O'Donnell to see if he could come back and play after Maddox and Batch got hurt lol. Cowher didn't want to risk playing the rookie! He was just that kind of coach. Thank goodness NOD turned him down though.

[Northern_Blitz]

Tomlin is good at getting his team into the playoffs, but they quite simply look lost once they are there, and have for awhile now. I lose respect for those that blame everyone else for the 3-7 record since 2011, but remind everyone how great he was from 2007 to 2010, when he started with a 5-2 record, and two SB trips. One can't have it both ways. There's something wrong when someone can start off so strong, and fizzle off after. The reason why the talk continues about Tomlin's early playoff success being tied to the players and support staff left behind, is directly due to that failed record since 2011, and the 4 straight playoff embarrassments. Nobody would say a thing if that simple fact did not exist, but unfortunately for all of us fans, it does. So the repeated comments as to why it is that way cannot be ignored, and the excuses are becoming redundant.

I agree you can't have it both ways.

I think the success and failure is more on Ben (and other players) than it is on coaching.

I'm fine if we change the HC tomorrow. I just don't think it will magically fix the team.

I think Tomlin is somewhere in the 2nd tier of coaches (BB is alone in tier one).

I think I'd put him lower in that tier than I would have 5 years ago. But I think it's harder to evaluate him because I think the team has been pretty bad in at least 2 of the last 3 years, and we did better than I thought we would in both of those years.

[Northern_Blitz]

As stubborn as Cowher could be at times, he adopted his offense to suit Ben's greatest strengths as a QB. You mentioned that before as well. He would have had some success in today's game in my opinion.

How do you think BC adapted the O for Ben?

What I remember was that we were great D, run heavy, and hope it was close at the end. Like what we tried to be this season.

I think that was BCs* offense always (except the time when we used a lot of 5 wide and had KS in the slash role).

I think BC was in the "don't let the QB screw it up" mode of coaching. That passes have 3 outcomes and 2 of them are bad.

And I think that would have been an impossible way to play / win as Ben's cap hit continued to grow. And as Troy and company declined with age.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong?

* I say BCs offense, but like Tomlin I think BC was more about the D than the O. And like MT, I think the team was better whet we had good to great coordinators on both sides. Because I think BC was a good collaborator and motivator of men (also like MT).

[feltdizz]

How do you think BC adapted the O for Ben?

What I remember was that we were great D, run heavy, and hope it was close at the end. Like what we tried to be this season.

I think that was BCs* offense always (except the time when we used a lot of 5 wide and had KS in the slash role).

I think BC was in the "don't let the QB screw it up" mode of coaching. That passes have 3 outcomes and 2 of them are bad.

And I think that would have been an impossible way to play / win as Ben's cap hit continued to grow. And as Troy and company declined with age.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong?

* I say BCs offense, but like Tomlin I think BC was more about the D than the O. And like MT, I think the team was better whet we had good to great coordinators on both sides. Because I think BC was a good collaborator and motivator of men (also like MT).

Running play action against the Colts was awesome but people act like we really transformed the O for Ben. I don’t think that was the case at all. We just threw early instead of run run pass.

it was the same game plan the Jags used against us. Run when they think pass and pass when they think run.

The difference is Ben was actually really good so he didn’t nut up on those passes like our other QB’s used to do in big playoff games.

[Northern_Blitz]

Running play action against the Colts was awesome but people act like we really transformed the O for Ben. I don’t think that was the case at all. We just threw early instead of run run pass.

it was the same game plan the Jags used against us. Run when they think pass and pass when they think run.

The difference is Ben was actually really good so he didn’t nut up on those passes like our other QB’s used to do in big playoff games.

I agree that this was one of the things that made Ben special. And unlike the mobility, the ability to be the same player in tough situations didn't seem to decline with time. In fact, maybe it got better because he seemed to be better in crunch time than for most of the game.

[crushedspirit]

Running play action against the Colts was awesome but people act like we really transformed the O for Ben. I don’t think that was the case at all. We just threw early instead of run run pass.

it was the same game plan the Jags used against us. Run when they think pass and pass when they think run.

The difference is Ben was actually really good so he didn’t nut up on those passes like our other QB’s used to do in big playoff games.

He didn't transform the O, but shed that run-run-pass-punt he loved come playoff time, and if one remembers as the games piled up, he trusted Ben more and more. For coach Cowher, that was a huge step, even though to many it might seem small.

[feltdizz]

He didn't transform the O, but shed that run-run-pass-punt he loved come playoff time, and if one remembers as the games piled up, he trusted Ben more and more. For coach Cowher, that was a huge step, even though to many it might seem small.

Not sure of you were on the Trib board when Tomlin was hired. I seem to remember a lot of fans who were still critical for keeping Ben a game manager and limiting to 20/25 pass per game range.

I was happy to see Cowher change up in the playoffs but remember.. Cowher also
let Tommy throw it all over the yard.

I think most of the “change” was simply seeing us throw it early and often which was totally different than our first game vs the Colts.

One thing Cowher said was viewers had a misconception about the way he handled Ben. While he didn’t throw it a lot, Ben did throw it early under Cowher. We turtled in second halves.

Still remember that Colts game and it was crazy how shocked everyone was with a pass on the first play. Like we broke a rule.

[crushedspirit]

Not sure of you were on the Trib board when Tomlin was hired. I seem to remember a lot of fans who were still critical for keeping Ben a game manager and limiting to 20/25 pass per game range.

I was happy to see Cowher change up in the playoffs but remember.. Cowher also
let Tommy throw it all over the yard.

I think most of the “change” was simply seeing us throw it early and often which was totally different than our first game vs the Colts.

One thing Cowher said was viewers had a misconception about the way he handled Ben. While he didn’t throw it a lot, Ben did throw it early under Cowher. We turtled in second halves.

Still remember that Colts game and it was crazy how shocked everyone was with a pass on the first play. Like we broke a rule.

Maddox was a weird one. He let him lose in the 2002 playoffs, but the fact both were high scoring games played a part. Following year the D regressed to mid pack, and at least 4 of the games by mid season they allowed 30+, so for some reason, he let Maddox sling the most attempts by a QB in coach Cowher's career. The 6-10 record was no surprise.

I remember Ben passed on the first 2 downs against Indy, hitting Miller on the second one for a big gain. That first drive they passed 7 times, ending in a TD to ARE, and they only ran it 3 times. I was shocked for sure, but loved every second of it. Then next week in Mile High, they start the game in a somewhat similar fashion, and go full throttle for the kill in that second quarter. Denver never knew what hit them. Cowher became more aggressive early in games with Ben in that playoff run, and once they had leads, you knew a steady Bus diet was going to close things out in that second half.

I was a big fan of game manager Ben, and didn't like the shift away from what he was best at.

[Northern_Blitz]

He didn't transform the O, but shed that run-run-pass-punt he loved come playoff time, and if one remembers as the games piled up, he trusted Ben more and more. For coach Cowher, that was a huge step, even though to many it might seem small.

Ben threw 21 passes vs. the Seahawks in the SB. We ran 33 times. If we take out ARE's pass we ran on 39% of plays. Not exactly run, run, pass (33%), but pretty close.

Matt Hasselbeck threw 49 passes and they ran 25 times. So they ran 66% of the time (run, pass, pass).

The AFCC was different. There we passed on 46% of plays. <-- I thought that this was his best game, but the Indy game was good too.

Divisional round: 57%

Wild Card: 36%

These aren't the be all end all stats, especially since they don't take into account game flow or opponent weaknesses. But I'm not sure there's a trend of him trusting Ben more and more. Particularly in the SB.

[T.Ferguson]

In the 6-10 year the Steelers couldn't run the ball, the team averaged like 3.3 yards a carry, kinda weird. The cinderella Maddox story came crashing down that season, in the last game of the season which was against the Ravens, Maddox was 14/27 108 yards 3 INTs lol. The game amazingly went to OT though.

[feltdizz]

Maddox was a weird one. He let him lose in the 2002 playoffs, but the fact both were high scoring games played a part. Following year the D regressed to mid pack, and at least 4 of the games by mid season they allowed 30+, so for some reason, he let Maddox sling the most attempts by a QB in coach Cowher's career. The 6-10 record was no surprise.

I remember Ben passed on the first 2 downs against Indy, hitting Miller on the second one for a big gain. That first drive they passed 7 times, ending in a TD to ARE, and they only ran it 3 times. I was shocked for sure, but loved every second of it. Then next week in Mile High, they start the game in a somewhat similar fashion, and go full throttle for the kill in that second quarter. Denver never knew what hit them. Cowher became more aggressive early in games with Ben in that playoff run, and once they had leads, you knew a steady Bus diet was going to close things out in that second half.

I was a big fan of game manager Ben, and didn't like the shift away from what he was best at.

yeah.. that SB run was amazing. I was scared as hell we would turtle up or have those Cowher mistakes on D that left a guy running uncovered that plagued us most years in championship games but we were dialed in.

[Captain Lemming]

Hey, maybe so, but the discussion was about something else.....
I'll say it again, Tomlin was great at the start, but 3-7 with 1 AFCC loss since 2010 is not a good playoff resume.

Yes it was about something else. You jumped in on a point I was making to Steel Maniac.

He always discredits Tomlins early years. It is a long standing argument we have had.

You and I mostly agree.

I don't dispute Tomlins recent playoff struggles.

[Northern_Blitz]

Yes it was about something else. You jumped in on a point I was making to Steel Maniac.

He always discredits Tomlins early years. It is a long standing argument we have had.

You and I mostly agree.

I don't dispute Tomlins recent playoff struggles.

I'm not sure anyone says Tomlin has done a good to great job coaching in the playoffs recently.

I think there's some reasonable arguments around who's more to blame in certain games. Even in the Jax game - where we disagree about who should get more blame - I don't think it's reasonable to say either coaching or execution were particularly good (playing Spence so much in a run heavy team, turnover for TD, not having a scheme that could deal with run and pass, inability to get a good plays when the game was within 10 points).

Ultimately, I think that coaching and execution haven't been good in any of our recent playoff games*. I think that's why Tomlin has fallen in the 2nd tier of coaches to me. Not outside of that group. But I used to think he could reasonably be thought of as the best non-BB coach in the league. Or at least that there wasn't anyone I'd reasonably take over him. Maybe that's still true, but I think the argument gets harder to make year after year.

* Maybe the KC game is the exception, where the coaching and execution is about what you'd reasonably expect due to a very large difference in talent?

[T.Ferguson]

yeah.. that SB run was amazing. I was scared as hell we would turtle up or have those Cowher mistakes on D that left a guy running uncovered that plagued us most years in championship games but we were dialed in.

To be fair, Cowher kinda did turtle up in the actual SB, he reverted back but it ended up working out. Ben had a terrible game overall so probably it was the right gameplan but at the same time I've always kind of wondered if the gameplan itself (play it safe, be conservative, don't make a mistake) made Ben more prone to making mistakes, like a mental thing idk. It definitely was a different approach to previous games in that playoff run.