Paul Zeise: Steelers' standard under Mike Tomlin has been lowered

[Northern_Blitz]

Again… the constant ignoring of Colbert in your discussion makes it null and void. It is the GM’s primary job to get the team what it needs.

Stop blaming Cowher for something that is not his primary job.

***Yet , when a team is constantly is unprepared and getting blown out playoff game after playoff game , you say it isn’t the coaches job to have a team prepared to play a playoff game.

This is why I have no long dialog anymore. No consistency in thinking.

Go write down what a GM’s responsibilities are and then go write down a head coaches responsibilities.

So you are now arguing that they aren't "Cowher's players"?

It's hard to keep everything straight over here.

[crushedspirit]

Cowher had Ben for his first 3 seasons, and the third was a write off since his QB almost died, and was never the same the entire season. He went to the AFCC with a rookie QB losing to Brady, and won it all in Ben's second season beating the best the AFC had to offer as underdogs three times on the road. Tomlin was one and done at home to the Jags, and then won the SB second year, getting there based on two home games.

How does the assertion that Tomlin, "coached the same players better", apply in this situation? I mean Tomlin did a great job the second season for sure and deserves full marks for it, but a better job than his predecessor with the same lineup? Cowher went to the playoffs with 5 different QBs, and Ben was by far the best of them all. O'Donnell was average, while Tomzak, Maddox, and the bouncy-ball passing Korky, were all bad QBs on their best days. If one had to read the resumes of these two without bias, how would you not pick the guy who has done somewhat better in the playoffs with so many different players in the key position?

Again, Tomlin deserves full marks for winning it all in his second season, and returning to the show in his fourth. It's safe to say he was at the top of his coaching game in two of those first four seasons in the playoffs, (5-2 with 1 SB win and 1 SB lost), but has been average since, with a good run in 2016 being the exception, (3-7 with 1 AFCC loss). Cowher never lost his edge, and that showed in two of his last three seasons. One can't say the same for Tomlin come playoff time. He was great early on, but I just don't see that anymore, unless success is only measured with regular season records.

He really needs to step up his game in my opinion.

[Terrapin]

Agreed.

Stop CREDITING Cowher for something that is not his primary job. They are NOT Cowhers players.

Tomlin "coached" the same players Cowher coached better than Cowher did.

They are Rooneys team.

I take no issue with assigning responsibility to Tomlin for having the team unprepared in recent playoff failures.

But consistency demands credit for having teams prepared when we win playoff games.

To give him no credit for having the team be prepared SPECIFICALLY to take any turnover to the house resulting in one of the greatest display of defensive blocking EVER resulting in the difference in winning and losing is ridiculous.

Let us know when this happens....

[T.Ferguson]

Obviously drafting players is a collaborative effort involving HC, GM and FO/owner, etc. Fans don't think the players drafted have been markedly different for the most part under Tomlin vs. Cowher?

Cowher and Colbert both thought Ben was over confident when they met with him pre-draft and by most accounts Cowher wanted Shawn Andrews until Rooney stepped in (Thank God).

[Captain Lemming]

Cowher had Ben for his first 3 seasons, and the third was a write off since his QB almost died, and was never the same the entire season. He went to the AFCC with a rookie QB losing to Brady, and won it all in Ben's second season beating the best the AFC had to offer as underdogs three times on the road. Tomlin was one and done at home to the Jags, and then won the SB second year, getting there based on two home games.

How does the assertion that Tomlin, "coached the same players better", apply in this situation? I mean Tomlin did a great job the second season for sure and deserves full marks for it, but a better job than his predecessor with the same lineup? Cowher went to the playoffs with 5 different QBs, and Ben was by far the best of them all. O'Donnell was average, while Tomzak, Maddox, and the bouncy-ball passing Korky, were all bad QBs on their best days. If one had to read the resumes of these two without bias, how would you not pick the guy who has done somewhat better in the playoffs with so many different players in the key position?

Again, Tomlin deserves full marks for winning it all in his second season, and returning to the show in his fourth. It's safe to say he was at the top of his coaching game in two of those first four seasons in the playoffs, (5-2 with 1 SB win and 1 SB lost), but has been average since, with a good run in 2016 being the exception, (3-7 with 1 AFCC loss). Cowher never lost his edge, and that showed in two of his last three seasons. One can't say the same for Tomlin come playoff time. He was great early on, but I just don't see that anymore, unless success is only measured with regular season records.

He really needs to step up his game in my opinion.

You and I have no quarrel about Tomlins current playoff disappointments. Legit. You recognize and credit his good seasons. This is my primary debate with others.

We differ a lttle as the following players were WAY better (either improved or better utilized under Tomlin:

Harrison
Clark
Ike
Foote

They were either coached better or better utilized under Tomlin.

Save for aging players like Ward and a couple lineman players were equal or better under Tomlin.

The statistically best pass defense since Noll was under Tomlin
The statistically best run defense since Noll was under Tomlin
The statistically best overall defense since 76 was under Tomlin

Tomlin has had the number one overall defense in either yards or points more times the either Cowher OR Noll.

We BARELY missed being the first team with the number one passing, rushing, overall yardage, and scoring defense in NFL history under Tomlin. It has never been done. In 2008 we were number one in all 4 categories until very late in the season and someone overtook us for number 1 run defense.

The least rushing yards allowed in a season by the Steelers in my lifetime (57 years) was 1004 in 2010.

Offense? Better under Tomlin than Cowher. Not even a debate.
The HIGHEST RATED red zone offense in team history was under Tomlin.

Ben- Better under Tomlin.

[Captain Lemming]

Let us know when this happens....

To give him no credit for having the team be prepared SPECIFICALLY to take any turnover to the house resulting in one of the greatest display of defensive blocking EVER resulting in the difference in winning and losing is ridiculous.

[crushedspirit]

You and I have no quarrel about Tomlins current playoff disappointments. Legit. You recognize and credit his good seasons. This is my primary debate with others.

We differ a lttle as the following players were WAY better (either improved or better utilized under Tomlin:

Harrison
Clark
Ike
Foote

They were either coached better or better utilized under Tomlin.

Save for aging players like Ward and a couple lineman players were equal or better under Tomlin.

The statistically best pass defense since Noll was under Tomlin
The statistically best run defense since Noll was under Tomlin
The statistically best overall defense since 76 was under Tomlin

Tomlin has had the number one overall defense in either yards or points more times the either Cowher OR Noll.

We BARELY missed being the first team with the number one passing, rushing, overall yardage, and scoring defense in NFL history under Tomlin. It has never been done. In 2008 we were number one in all 4 categories until very late in the season and someone overtook us for number 1 run defense.

The least rushing yards allowed in a season by the Steelers in my lifetime (57 years) was 1004 in 2010.

Offense? Better under Tomlin than Cowher. Not even a debate.
The HIGHEST RATED red zone offense in team history was under Tomlin.

Ben- Better under Tomlin.

Cowher had a healthy Ben for his first two seasons, and I already posted what he accomplished in comparison to Tomlin in the same span, with the same QB. Knowing what I witnessed, I have to wonder what Cowher could have done going forward if health was not a concern. I look at the sum of all parts when it comes to coaching, yet under Cowher, Ben was a better playoff QB, which his 5-1 record would indicate. Ben's 2005 run to the SB was the best playoff football he has ever played, and I've seen all his playoff runs. You can post all the regular season successes you want, but you're skipping the playoff picture since 2010 under Tomlin, (3-7, one AFCC loss).

Cowher gets the edge at having his teams better prepared come playoff time, and going to the playoffs with 5 different QBs is something Tomlin simply doesn't have on his resume.

[Captain Lemming]

Cowher had a healthy Ben for his first two seasons, and I already posted what he accomplished in comparison to Tomlin in the same span, with the same QB. Knowing what I witnessed, I have to wonder what Cowher could have done going forward if health was not a concern. I look at the sum of all parts when it comes to coaching, yet under Cowher, Ben was a better playoff QB, which his 5-1 record would indicate. Ben's 2005 run to the SB was the best playoff football he has ever played, and I've seen all his playoff runs. You can post all the regular season successes you want, but you're skipping the playoff picture since 2010 under Tomlin, (3-7, one AFCC loss).

Cowher gets the edge at having his teams better prepared come playoff time, and going to the playoffs with 5 different QBs is something Tomlin simply doesn't have on his resume.

The team was on a steady decline. We just got hot in the playoffs. Our team was better in 04.

Unless Ben plays defense, his injury has nothing to do with our defensive defensive decline. Our DBs were trash.

Nearly a 500 yard swing and almost 900 yard swing from 2006 passing yards allowed.

People act like we were on the verge of a dynasty, when the team was getting worse.

[crushedspirit]

The team was on a steady decline. We just got hot in the playoffs. Our team was better in 04.

Unless Ben plays defense, his injury has nothing to do with our defensive defensive decline. Our DBs were trash.

Nearly a 500 yard swing and almost 900 yard swing from 2006 passing yards allowed.

People act like we were on the verge of a dynasty, when the team was getting worse.

Hey, maybe so, but the discussion was about something else.

- Ben had his best playoff stretch ever in 2005
- Cowher went to the playoffs with 5 different QBs, most of them average to bad
- Cowher had a better overall playoff record, and went to 4 AFCC plus 2 SB games, compared to 1 AFCC and 2 SB games
- Cowher has 2 one-and-done playoff games on his resume, Tomlin has 6 on his
- Cowher was never embarrassed in 4 straight playoff games, unlike coach Mike
- Tomlin has had more success in the regular season

I'll say it again, Tomlin was great at the start, but 3-7 with 1 AFCC loss since 2010 is not a good playoff resume. He's done a good job overall of getting the team into the playoffs, but he's simply subpar for awhile now, when games matter the most. I give Cowher the edge for having his teams better prepared come playoff time for reasons already mentioned, and for accomplishing what he did with 5 different QBs. Tomlin has some work to do to be on the same page in my opinion. We will soon see now that Ben is gone.

[Northern_Blitz]

Hey, maybe so, but the discussion was about something else.

- Ben had his best playoff stretch ever in 2005
- Cowher went to the playoffs with 5 different QBs, most of them average to bad
- Cowher had a better overall playoff record, and went to 4 AFCC plus 2 SB games, compared to 1 AFCC and 2 SB games
- Cowher has 2 one-and-done playoff games on his resume, Tomlin has 6 on his
- Cowher was never embarrassed in 4 straight playoff games, unlike coach Mike
- Tomlin has had more success in the regular season

I'll say it again, Tomlin was great at the start, but 3-7 with 1 AFCC loss since 2010 is not a good playoff resume. He's done a good job overall of getting the team into the playoffs, but he's simply subpar for awhile now, when games matter the most. I give Cowher the edge for having his teams better prepared come playoff time for reasons already mentioned, and for accomplishing what he did with 5 different QBs. Tomlin has some work to do to be on the same page in my opinion. We will soon see now that Ben is gone.

I think the argument is mostly about timing.

Cowher went out (mostly) on top. So people remember the win more than the crushing home AFCC losses.

Tomlin won at the beginning and now we remember the crushing string of first round exits. And since MT is still coaching, we probably all fear the next one. Especially with a new era starting that has a good chance of being less than what we've been accustomed to for the last ~3 decades.

Like Cowher, Tomlin has been a very good coach. Like Cowher, Tomlin has had several bad beats in the playoffs. I think that Tomlin is also like Cowher in that we'll miss him when he's gone. Maybe even more because the odds that the next guy is as good as BC or MT isn't high IMO.

TLDR: they are both very good coaches with comparable careers. I think it's reasonable to say one is better than the other. But the gap isn't large.

[NorthCoast]

....
Cowher gets the edge at having his teams better prepared come playoff time, and going to the playoffs with 5 different QBs is something Tomlin simply doesn't have on his resume.

You're not wrong in the fact that the last few seasons the Steelers have badly faded at the end. 2021 they managed a winning record in Dec/Jan regular season so maybe a turn-around emerging?...., especially considering the tough schedule this season.

[crushedspirit]

I think the argument is mostly about timing.

Cowher went out (mostly) on top. So people remember the win more than the crushing home AFCC losses.

Tomlin won at the beginning and now we remember the crushing string of first round exits. And since MT is still coaching, we probably all fear the next one. Especially with a new era starting that has a good chance of being less than what we've been accustomed to for the last ~3 decades.

Like Cowher, Tomlin has been a very good coach. Like Cowher, Tomlin has had several bad beats in the playoffs. I think that Tomlin is also like Cowher in that we'll miss him when he's gone. Maybe even more because the odds that the next guy is as good as BC or MT isn't high IMO.

TLDR: they are both very good coaches with comparable careers. I think it's reasonable to say one is better than the other. But the gap isn't large.

I remember vividly Pupunu drinking from his coconut, and O'Donnell making Brown a star for one game. Those games sting in memories, but I did appreciate the fight those teams had while carrying an anchor at the QB position. I simply don't appreciate the current fight at all. I would rather go down until the bitter end in a crushing defeat, than get embarrassed as if I never belonged in the first place. Cowher's teams were never this unprepared come playoff time, plain and simple. He gets the nod just for that simple reason alone, as well as the other items on his resume already listed.

I can see where some would favor Tomlin based on his regular season winning percentage, (which just doesn't carry the same weight as playoff success), and his ability to reach the playoffs just as consistently, but that's where the comparison ends in my opinion. His first four years he proved he was on par, but his longevity to stay at that level has dipped since then. Cowher's longevity at the top never waned in comparison.

[WindyCitySteel]

I remember vividly Pupunu drinking from his coconut, and O'Donnell making Brown a star for one game. Those games sting in memories, but I did appreciate the fight those teams had while carrying an anchor at the QB position. I simply don't appreciate the current fight at all. I would rather go down until the bitter end in a crushing defeat, than get embarrassed as if I never belonged in the first place. Cowher's teams were never this unprepared come playoff time, plain and simple. He gets the nod just for that simple reason alone, as well as the other items on his resume already listed.

I can see where some would favor Tomlin based on his regular season winning percentage, (which just doesn't carry the same weight as playoff success), and his ability to reach the playoffs just as consistently, but that's where the comparison ends in my opinion. His first four years he proved he was on par, but his longevity to stay at that level has dipped since then. Cowher's longevity at the top never waned in comparison.

I did a thread on another board a couple years ago showing Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin's playoff record as favorites and underdogs. Cowher and Noll had some signature playoff upset wins, Tomlin is only 1-5 as an underdog, that lone win over 2.5 pt favored KC. I might need to dig that up and bring it up to date.

[crushedspirit]

I did a thread on another board a couple years ago showing Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin's playoff record as favorites and underdogs. Cowher and Noll had some signature playoff upsets, Tomlin was only 1-5 as an underdog, that lone win over 2.5 pt favored KC. I might need to dig that up and bring it up to date.

I'll save you the trouble of finding it. Here are the playoff W/L as favorites and underdogs, including SB games played;

Noll as FAV, 13-2
Noll as UND, 3-6

Cowher as FAV, 9-3
Cowher as UND, 3-6

Tomlin as FAV, 7-4
Tomlin as UND, 1-5

Just more info in favor of Cowher over Tomlin in games that matter the most. Noll is the King of them all.

[Northern_Blitz]

I remember vividly Pupunu drinking from his coconut, and O'Donnell making Brown a star for one game. Those games sting in memories, but I did appreciate the fight those teams had while carrying an anchor at the QB position. I simply don't appreciate the current fight at all. I would rather go down until the bitter end in a crushing defeat, than get embarrassed as if I never belonged in the first place. Cowher's teams were never this unprepared come playoff time, plain and simple. He gets the nod just for that simple reason alone, as well as the other items on his resume already listed.

I can see where some would favor Tomlin based on his regular season winning percentage, (which just doesn't carry the same weight as playoff success), and his ability to reach the playoffs just as consistently, but that's where the comparison ends in my opinion. His first four years he proved he was on par, but his longevity to stay at that level has dipped since then. Cowher's longevity at the top never waned in comparison.

I think the team showed good fight in the Jags and Browns game. Would have been easy to give up in either after poor starts.

This year... Well, it was clear we didn't really belong in the playoffs. Especially against a team with an explosive offense.

I'm not sure if I favor Tomlin or a Cowher. They are / were both very good. I think it's reasonable to take either. I think Peyton and Cowher are the best comparables for Tomlin. Although Peyton is more because the results are the same. Cowher and Tomlin are most similar in terms of strengths / weaknesses IMO.