Poll Question for Everyone

[Northern_Blitz]

That’s not what you said. You flat out said what he did was luck because you had no answer for my example of Mcvay. Don’t start back peddling now. You are not a cornerback. Lol

OK. You didn't answer any of my questions. But Tip Roast had a good answer for one of them.

I'll make it easier and only repeat 2 of the questions here.

A. If coaching is more important than talent why do you argue that comparing Tomlin to Cowher isn't reasonable because Tomlin has had a more talented QB for his whole career?

B. And why does it matter that Tomlin won with Cowher's players?

[Terrapin]

How do you set reasonable expectations for a coach?

That's ownerships job. But if I were the owner, I'd certainly be looking at things like:
Roster talent
Payroll/Salary cap
Fan support
City support (new stadium, arena, etc)
All of these in relation to the other teams in the league
etc
etc

Look at other sports. If the Yankees or Red Sox miss the playoffs, barring significant injuries, the manager is probably fired. If the Pens miss the playoffs this year I'd bet Sullivan is either fired or given a final warning. Why? Because those teams spend a lot of money, have very talented teams, have a rabid fanbase that spends a ton of money on tickets, merchandise, etc. The expectations are extremely high. The Steelers are the same, or at least should be, especially why you have/had multiple potential Hall of Famers on the roster.

So why does Tomlin continually get a pass for underachieving? Why is he getting a pass for this team of incredible talent absolutely imploding?

[Mr.wizard]

Oh wow....
Will you stop putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned championships.

The jags had injuries in the O-line and in their runningbacks. So they had no offense and subsequently left their defense on the field in the majority of games. And wore that defense down.

Why would injuries matter if the coach is the difference?

[Northern_Blitz]

Why would injuries matter if the coach is the difference?

And if major injuries do matter, what about Shazier's injury?

[Northern_Blitz]

That's ownerships job. But if I were the owner, I'd certainly be looking at things like:
Roster talent
Payroll/Salary cap
Fan support
City support (new stadium, arena, etc)
All of these in relation to the other teams in the league
etc
etc

Look at other sports. If the Yankees or Red Sox miss the playoffs, barring significant injuries, the manager is probably fired. If the Pens miss the playoffs this year I'd bet Sullivan is either fired or given a final warning. Why? Because those teams spend a lot of money, have very talented teams, have a rabid fanbase that spends a ton of money on tickets, merchandise, etc. The expectations are extremely high. The Steelers are the same, or at least should be, especially why you have/had multiple potential Hall of Famers on the roster.

So why does Tomlin continually get a pass for underachieving? Why is he getting a pass for this team of incredible talent absolutely imploding?

I don't think he gets a pass for underachieving this year. But, I think his track record suggests that he deserves a year or two to right the ship. Just like Sean Peyton (missed playoffs in 2014, 2015, 2016) and Bill Cowher (missed playoffs in 98,99,2000).

Like you said, I think the loss to the Jags makes sense in light of a major injury to our best defensive player.

In general, the Steelers under Tomlin have done better than expected given their regular season seeding (Squid's expectations). This is a bit surprising given they have done so well in the regular season under Tomlin.

http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/48742-Rooney-Brown-meeting/page22

I'd also argue that decisions based on the demands of rabid fan bases would probably tend to make a team worse rather than better. I think Fans (and bad ownership) are strongly influenced by recency bias and aren't very good at judging the process. I'm very thankful that the Rooney's are patient owners.

As a Leafs fan, I've had decades of experience seeing how reactionary moves made to placate fans often have terrible results. This is now turning around after they hired a more analytical leadership team. They also followed what Brian Burke called "the Pittsburgh [Penguin] model", which I think could be translated to "tank and win the draft lottery in a year with a generational talent" (although Matthews isn't as good as Crosby).

[tiproast]

This is a reasonable answer. Thanks for filling in some more context around BB with the move from Cle.

You're welcome.

[Mr.wizard]

And if major injuries do matter, what about Shazier's injury?

Yes, players matter so much more than coaches do. It's evident in the contracts given and how emphasis is placed on scouting and the draft.

[Oviedo]

I don't think he gets a pass for underachieving this year. But, I think his track record suggests that he deserves a year or two to right the ship. Just like Sean Peyton (missed playoffs in 2014, 2015, 2016) and Bill Cowher (missed playoffs in 98,99,2000).

Like you said, I think the loss to the Jags makes sense in light of a major injury to our best defensive player.

In general, the Steelers under Tomlin have done better than expected given their regular season seeding (Squid's expectations). This is a bit surprising given they have done so well in the regular season under Tomlin.

http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/48742-Rooney-Brown-meeting/page22

I'd also argue that decisions based on the demands of rabid fan bases would probably tend to make a team worse rather than better. I think Fans (and bad ownership) are strongly influenced by recency bias and aren't very good at judging the process. I'm very thankful that the Rooney's are patient owners.

As a Leafs fan, I've had decades of experience seeing how reactionary moves made to placate fans often have terrible results. This is now turning around after they hired a more analytical leadership team. They also followed what Brian Burke called "the Pittsburgh [Penguin] model", which I think could be translated to "tank and win the draft lottery in a year with a generational talent" (although Matthews isn't as good as Crosby).

Excellent post. Clearly you live in the real world.

[Oh wow]

Nobody is picking the flavor of the year. I can say the same about the Bears too. Better coaching took them too to a winning record.

North_ blitz tried to say as long as the players are great, doesn’t matter who the coach neccessarily I s and that’s the biggest bunch of crap I’ve ever heard. They are both important but the Rams and Bears are classic examples that you can’t win without good coaching.

But we saw an average talent team like the patriots just beat a team with more talent in the super bowl. Why? Because they Had the better coaches.

The Patriots aren’t filled with average players.

The Bears signed the most dominant defensive player in the league 2 years ago.

What you need to realize is the NFL is all about parody. Teams will go from worst to first in a year or 2 and then drop back to then middle of the pack. Consistency is the sign of good coaching IMO. Having one or 2 good seasons doesn’t end the argument you are trying to make.

So once again, why did the Jags fall off after reaching the AFCCG?

Why did the Vikings fail to reach the SB when all you said they needed was Kirk Cousins?

The idea that the Pats won 6 titles with average players doesn’t hold water. They have talent just like everyone else but they also have Brady.

[Sword]

Starts with the coach because all these players are athletes as football players...takes A good Coach to keep the train going and in control......

[pittpete]

It cant be coaching, look at all the great teams like the Redskins that keep signing all these great high priced free agents...LOL
Im sure the Jets will be in the Super Bowl this year with Mosely and Barr..
A good coach knows how to change things up when a player is injured.
You dont run the same defense with Sean Spence replacing Shazier.
Get the F out of here.

[Northern_Blitz]

This doesn’t make sense.

First off McVey has to be able to show consistency before he is crowned.

The Rams also acquired Suh, Peters, Talib and Cooks because they had 45 mill in cap space and have Gohff on a rookie contract for 7.6 mill in cap space.

Jeff Fisher sucked, hates QB play and always went 7-9.

McVey also looked like a lost puppy in that SB.

McVey looks to be good but he also had a ton of talent added to the roster AND needed blind refs to help them beat the Saints.

In case anyone buys into Maniacs argument that McVay's team had the same level of talent as Fisher's, lets look at these additions.

- Suh is a former defensive player of the year. 3 x 1st team all pro. 2x 2nd team all pro. 5x Pro bowler. Defensive rookie of the year.
- Peters honors include: first and second team all pro, defensive rookie of the year, 2 probowls.
- Talib: 1st team all pro, 2nd team all pro, 5x probowler.
- Cooks: Not as significant as the first 3 re awards.

If we added two 1st team all pro CBs and a DPOY to the front seven would Mike Tomlin become a better coach?

Or would it be that our team just got a huge infusion of talent?

Also as brothervad noted in another, QBs tend to get better in their first few years in the league. He was talking about Ben, but I'd imagine that it applies to Goff as well (better in year 3 than years 1 and 2).

[Oh wow]

One other thing to consider. I was skeptical of Gurley a few years ago and Rams fans pointed out the OL wasn’t that good.

They added Whiteworth as well as another OL and got rid of a draft bust on the OL.

Maniac acts like they had the same team in place for 3 years.

[Steel Maniac]

In case anyone buys into Maniacs argument that McVay's team had the same level of talent as Fisher's, lets look at these additions.

- Suh is a former defensive player of the year. 3 x 1st team all pro. 2x 2nd team all pro. 5x Pro bowler. Defensive rookie of the year.
- Peters honors include: first and second team all pro, defensive rookie of the year, 2 probowls.
- Talib: 1st team all pro, 2nd team all pro, 5x probowler.
- Cooks: Not as significant as the first 3 re awards.

If we added two 1st team all pro CBs and a DPOY to the front seven would Mike Tomlin become a better coach?

Or would it be that our team just got a huge infusion of talent?

Also as brothervad noted in another, QBs tend to get better in their first few years in the league. He was talking about Ben, but I'd imagine that it applies to Goff as well (better in year 3 than years 1 and 2).

Sue was not there when Mcvay signed. Suh just came this year. Along with Peterson, Fowler, along with Talib. Your telling another lie because I've exposed your theory to be wrong.

[Northern_Blitz]

Sue was not there when Mcvay signed. Suh just came this year. Along with Peterson, along with Talib.

Thanks. Didn't realize that this was his second year (don't follow the Rams).

Seems like they added lots of talent after a wild card loss and went to the SB the next year.

Same coach in 2017 & 2018, but dramatically different results.

The difference in result seems to be a combination of more talent (added + developing QB) and better luck. Or do you think McVay got dramatically better from 2017 to 2018?