Poll Question for Everyone

[RuthlessBurgher]

Also, are you saying also that with those players added, Jeff Fisher would have became a winner?

I'm not saying any of that. I'm just saying that your base argument that McVey won with the same exact players Fisher had the year before is clearly bogus. There is turnover on every team every year, so I could have overlooked if there were only a handful of new starters, but there is literally no argument you could make anymore when literally of half your starting roster is new. At that point, you're comparing apples to calamari.

[steelz09]

McVey's specialty is offense and the Rams had a solid offense.

Sean Payton is an offense minded coach and we can obviously see the success their offense has had over the years.

Tomlin's speciality is the secondary and our secondary isn't only bad but flat out incompetent and confused for how many years now?

Is there a head coach in the NFL where the head coaches "speciality" has been as much of an embarrassment for as long as Tomlin's "speciality".

More evidence of how fraudulent Tomlin is....
It proves that he doesn't have a speciality. It's all smoke and mirrors.

Well, I take that back. He is a good chest thumping rah rah guy with catchy overused post game cliches.

[Captain Lemming]

You are hilarious Tip.

You highlight a point of contention in my post and THEN proceed to argue AT EVEN GREATER LENGTH a assertions I never made.

Then close with near 100 percent agreement with what I actually said.

Well, there are some other smart guys in the league:

• BB the coach sometimes gets out-coached
• BB the GM doesn't win every trade
• BB the personnel guy misses on draft picks (usually in the 2nd round - he's way better in the 4th round)

I do agree, though, that other teams don't seem to be able to put his system into practice. I think it's because he learned, after being fired in Cleveland, that all coaches and players have a shelf-life. And there's no use being sentimental about it - every player's time with a team is going to have a stop date. It's the job of someone in the organization to determine when that is, and to make sure that a player's presence on the roster makes both football and financial sense. Belichick makes those hard calls for the Pats, and it seems (at least to me) that most players understand it.

Bledsoe, McGinest, Seymour and Wilfork are just a few of the big-name players that Belichick has traded or released when their contracts were not aligned with the Belichickian cost/benefit analysis. And yet, all those players (and many more, even Lawyer Milloy) have returned to Foxborough and maintain a good relationship with the team and with BB.

So I think you're correct in your "moneyball" description - it really is the way the team does business.

[BURGH86STEEL]

Can'y believe this is even a question up for debate. How can the individuals that play the game not be the more important factor?

Ultimately it's the players that win or lose games on the field.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Coaches aim to put players in position to succeed, but ultimately the players must execute on the field. Football players aren't robots and coaches don't control the action like they are playing Madden on Xbox. Quality coaches can make players better and quality players can make coaches better. Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

[DrCalculus]

Players BY A LARGE MARGIN.

How many SBs did the great Chuck Noll win without EVERY LAST ONE OF NINE hall of fame players entering the AFC championship?

Even during the dynasty, we failed if even ONE of those players was injured.

People bring up BB.
Belichick is a notable exception.....not the rule which is why he is GOAT without question.

The Patriots are the only dynasty ever that wasn't driven primary by player talent.

And not to dwell on it, but don't discount BB's willingness to bend / circumvent the spirit of the rules (e.g. unconventional substitution patterns, videogate), questionable over-the-top home-field advantage (e.g. opponents radios not working, deflated balls) , the benefit from repeated instances of calls going in his favor (tuck rule, Jesse James catch-no-catch, etc.), and opposing coaches making uncharacteristically poor decisions on offense (three of those Super Bowl victories -- Seahawks, Falcons, and probably the Rams this year -- were gift wrapped by the opposition inconceivably abandoning the run despite that being a major strength of their game).

Fortune has definitely had a large part in his continued success. He is definitely an outlier.

[Steel Maniac]

McVey's specialty is offense and the Rams had a solid offense.

Sean Payton is an offense minded coach and we can obviously see the success their offense has had over the years.

Tomlin's speciality is the secondary and our secondary isn't only bad but flat out incompetent and confused for how many years now?

Is there a head coach in the NFL where the head coaches "speciality" has been as much of an embarrassment for as long as Tomlin's "speciality".

More evidence of how fraudulent Tomlin is....
It proves that he doesn't have a speciality. It's all smoke and mirrors.

Well, I take that back. He is a good chest thumping rah rah guy with catchy overused post game cliches.

This..........

[Steel Maniac]

I'm not saying any of that. I'm just saying that your base argument that McVey won with the same exact players Fisher had the year before is clearly bogus. There is turnover on every team every year, so I could have overlooked if there were only a handful of new starters, but there is literally no argument you could make anymore when literally of half your starting roster is new. At that point, you're comparing apples to calamari.

Last question..

So, your telling me we can fire Frank Reich ( for example) of the Colts, and bring in Jeff Fisher with the exact same players, and Jeff Fischer will be just as successful as Frank Reich was last year?

Yes or no. That’s all I need.

[papillon]

Players are more important than coaches, without talented players you don't win games. Coaches are like jockeys, great jockeys can make a good horse great but great jockeys can't make a bad horse fast. Same with coaches, great coaches can make a good team great, but they can't make a bad team good or great.

Pappy

[Oh wow]

Last question..

So, your telling me we can fire Frank Reich ( for example) of the Colts, and bring in Jeff Fisher with the exact same players, and Jeff Fischer will be just as successful as Frank Reich was last year?

Yes or no. That’s all I need.

Why are you so infatuated with Jeff Fisher? Hue Jackson.. now that’s a guy who could turn a team around.

[papillon]

Well, there are some other smart guys in the league:

• BB the coach sometimes gets out-coached
• BB the GM doesn't win every trade
• BB the personnel guy misses on draft picks (usually in the 2nd round - he's way better in the 4th round)

I do agree, though, that other teams don't seem to be able to put his system into practice. I think it's because he learned, after being fired in Cleveland, that all coaches and players have a shelf-life. And there's no use being sentimental about it - every player's time with a team is going to have a stop date. It's the job of someone in the organization to determine when that is, and to make sure that a player's presence on the roster makes both football and financial sense. Belichick makes those hard calls for the Pats, and it seems (at least to me) that most players understand it.

Bledsoe, McGinest, Seymour and Wilfork are just a few of the big-name players that Belichick has traded or released when their contracts were not aligned with the Belichickian cost/benefit analysis. And yet, all those players (and many more, even Lawyer Milloy) have returned to Foxborough and maintain a good relationship with the team and with BB.

So I think you're correct in your "moneyball" description - it really is the way the team does business.

I wish Tom Brady would get to his stop date.

Pappy

[Steel Maniac]

Players are more important than coaches, without talented players you don't win games. Coaches are like jockeys, great jockeys can make a good horse great but great jockeys can't make a bad horse fast. Same with coaches, great coaches can make a good team great, but they can't make a bad team good or great.

Pappy

We just saw the lest talented patriots beat the vastly more talented Rams. What was the difference? Coaching.

[SS Laser]

This..........

Why is Tomlin's specialty always said to be secondary?
He was a WR as a player and coached that first at the college level. Yes most of his seasons as a NFL coach was DB's. But maybe he has more knowledge and skill on the offensive side of the ball then given credit. He has helped build a very good Oline. "His" draft picks in Pouncey and Decastro etc. There is a story out there he wanted AV.
WR's have been good here. Crazy and problematic at times. A few good RB's. Good D-line players. There trouble yes has been DB's and OLB.
CB's for sure have a very high bust rate. Not sure the stats on OLB bust rate. The defensive rebuild mostly through the draft has taken to long. Some 1st rd busts and bad luck with Shazier did not help. I think they are learning from the drafting and player mistakes.
It all comes to a head because the window was small for Ben.
I still think they have a good chance at #7 before Ben retires.

[papillon]

We just saw the lest talented patriots beat the vastly more talented Rams. What was the difference? Coaching.

I disagree that the Patriots were less talented than the Rams. Taking a look across the starting 22 and special teams I'd say the Pats talent level is on par with the Rams. This was a case of a good coach taking a good team and making them great, which is my argument. BB wouldn't have taken the Browns roster and won the Superbowl, he needs good players.

Pappy

[RuthlessBurgher]

Last question..

So, your telling me we can fire Frank Reich ( for example) of the Colts, and bring in Jeff Fisher with the exact same players, and Jeff Fischer will be just as successful as Frank Reich was last year?

Yes or no. That’s all I need.

No. Boom?