Le'Veon Bell

[Northern_Blitz]

I too wonder whether we are paying Ben too much. But there is a fundamental and huge difference with QB. Elite ones are the ones with MULTIPLE championships and these guys are difficult to find, ESPECIALLY if you never have premium high picks in the first.

2 decades between SB QBs.
BOTH BRADSHAW AND BEN......TOP 6 PICKS.
Running backs?
Willie Parker started 2.....he was “good”.....but hardly a difficult level of back to replace.

We just added a pro bowl receiver and running back without needing to use a first on either. We didn’t need a first to get either Bell or Brown in the first place.

Let’s look at running back:

This team has been to 4 SBs since Franco and were represented as starters by:
1. Eric Pegram
2. Willie Parker
3. Willie Parker
4. Rashard Mendenhall

The Steelers best backs since Franco:
1. Barry Foster (albeit briefly) 1st team all pro and STILL has Steeler single season rushing record
2. Jerome Bettis- HOFer
3. Bell- On HOF pace, at times best back in the league

Are the first three players better than the last three?
Of course not!

The difference is QB (O’Donnell had a career year....until the SB) and Defense.

Nevermind NE.
Elite running backs have not go gotten US to the SB since the 70s. The caliber of backs that are drafted EVERY YEAR in the 2nd round and later is all you need. EASY to replace.

QBs.......20 years between Bradshaw and Ben the ONLY Steeler QBs with rings.

There's no argument that QBs are way more important than any other position. They're the most likely position that you'd want to spend a ton of cap space on.

I just think it sucks that we've now had 2 years in a row where we end up wasting a significant amount of cap space because of terrible luck (Shazier), a holdout (Bell), and a diva (Brown).

It especially sucks because one of those years was a season where Ben was at the end of a long term deal so his cap hit was below market value. Now we're using our cap to pay full market for our QB while also using a significant amount of cap space on an elite WR who isn't even on the team.

Re: Run first vs. Mobile

It seems like part of this distinction comes with hindsight. After a guy has played in the league for a bit, if he's successful he gets the tag "mobile" and if he's not he's "run first". The thing that sucks about QBs is that they're mystery boxes coming out of college. Maybe they'll be elite and maybe they'll flame out.

That's why we probably had to use what might be too much of the cap to pay Ben. Good young QBs are the best thing for your team, but they're super hard to find.

[Oh wow]

Soooo... QB’s who aren’t good have a hard time winning SB’s??

That goes for passing or “running QB’s”

[Oh wow]

There's no argument that QBs are way more important than any other position. They're the most likely position that you'd want to spend a ton of cap space on.

I just think it sucks that we've now had 2 years in a row where we end up wasting a significant amount of cap space because of terrible luck (Shazier), a holdout (Bell), and a diva (Brown).

It especially sucks because one of those years was a season where Ben was at the end of a long term deal so his cap hit was below market value. Now we're using our cap to pay full market for our QB while also using a significant amount of cap space on an elite WR who isn't even on the team.

Re: Run first vs. Mobile

It seems like part of this distinction comes with hindsight. After a guy has played in the league for a bit, if he's successful he gets the tag "mobile" and if he's not he's "run first". The thing that sucks about QBs is that they're mystery boxes coming out of college. Maybe they'll be elite and maybe they'll flame out.

That's why we probably had to use what might be too much of the cap to pay Ben. Good young QBs are the best thing for your team, but they're super hard to find.

Yeah. Everyone says a guy like Cam could NEVER win a SB. He came damn close but before he made it most people swore he would never even make it that far or even last this long in the league. He was definitely labeled a run first QB.

Everyone says Russel Wilson is an efficient passer but who wanted to draft him out of college? He lasted until the 4th round. Kapernick had a nice run as well.

All of these guys weren’t predicted to succeed in the NFL and they were all a few plays away from SB rings and RW was a play away from 2 rings if they just ran the ball.

[Captain Lemming]

Soooo... QBÂ’s who arenÂ’t good have a hard time winning SBÂ’s??
88
That goes for passing or “running QB’s”

Close but not quite what I’m saying.

Simply stated- Great QBs are great because they are great PASSERS period.
The ability to run while nice, and can come in handy, is not relevant to the above question.

When using the expression “run-first” I mean a QB who’s “primary” elite skill is their running ability. Sure he can pass, but he is not above average by the NFL standard.

QBs that are outstanding runners but mediocre passers are “fools gold”, as they all tend to be able to win, but don’t tend to win championships.

[Oh wow]

Close but not quite what I’m saying.

Simply stated- Great QBs are great because they are great PASSERS period.
The ability to run while nice, and can come in handy, is not relevant to the above question.

When using the expression “run-first” I mean a QB who’s “primary” elite skill is their running ability. Sure he can pass, but he is not above average by the NFL standard.

QBs that are outstanding runners but mediocre passers are “fools gold”, as they all tend to be able to win, but don’t tend to win championships.

This isn’t true at all.

[Captain Lemming]

Yeah. Everyone says a guy like Cam could NEVER win a SB. He came damn close but before he made it most people swore he would never even make it that far or even last this long in the league. He was definitely labeled a run first QB.

Everyone says Russel Wilson is an efficient passer but who wanted to draft him out of college? He lasted until the 4th round. Kapernick had a nice run as well.

All of these guys weren’t predicted to succeed in the NFL and they were all a few plays away from SB rings and RW was a play away from 2 rings if they just ran the ball.

I think Cam can win it all because he at times looks like a really good passer. Dude is just crazy inconsistent.
But players like Cam reveal the downside of the “ability” to run. It can be an escape hatch that stunts growth as a passer.
But I look at McNair and Cunningham as guys who I believe matured into top tier passers as they de-emphasized their running.

Cam needs to do that to reach his potential.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Cam Newton is a different animal than most running QB's. When I think of a running QB, I tend to think of a thin, quick, nifty guy making juke moves in the open field then sliding or running out of bounds. That's not Cam at all. Most of his runs are short-yardage or goalline runs where he must absorb punishment in order to obtain his 58 career rushing TD's. Dude is built like a brick...uh...port-o-potty, but that level of physical punishment is catching up to him. He wasn't close to the same guy late last season as he was early last season. Carolina has RB's who can run into the end zone in short yardage situations...you don't need your franchise QB to do that for you anymore. Cam needs to make a change just to maintain his health to prolong his career in general. It's like when Ben altered his game to throw more quick short passes rather than waiting until the last second for a big play while absorbing a huge hit. Even big dudes like Ben and Cam need to protect themselves if they want to play this game for any significant length of time.

[Captain Lemming]

This isn’t true at all.

I really think you are not grasping what I’m saying. I doubt you disagree with what I’m saying but looking at the criticisms of “running QBs” made by others and projecting that to me. Thus your bringing up Cam who is a good albeit inconsistent passer. He is capable of having an Eli or Flacco run. Given a hot hand I don’t doubt he can win it all.

I never used the term “running QBs” intentionally.
I deliberately said “run 1st.” Then explained my meaning.

QBs who are mediocre passers, but have success due to elite run skills don’t tend to win championships.
Do you really disagree with that?

[Captain Lemming]

There's no argument that QBs are way more important than any other position. They're the most likely position that you'd want to spend a ton of cap space on.

I just think it sucks that we've now had 2 years in a row where we end up wasting a significant amount of cap space because of terrible luck (Shazier), a holdout (Bell), and a diva (Brown).

It especially sucks because one of those years was a season where Ben was at the end of a long term deal so his cap hit was below market value. Now we're using our cap to pay full market for our QB while also using a significant amount of cap space on an elite WR who isn't even on the team.

So true.
SOMEODY ON THIS BOARD suggested not signing either Brown or Bell. People still say he was wrong.

Re: Run first vs. Mobile

It seems like part of this distinction comes with hindsight. After a guy has played in the league for a bit, if he's successful he gets the tag "mobile" and if he's not he's "run first". The thing that sucks about QBs is that they're mystery boxes coming out of college. Maybe they'll be elite and maybe they'll flame out.

Not me. I never saw Cam that way from his first game. Here is why:
In his rookie year, Newton broke all-time NFL rookie records for passing and rushing yards. He became the first NFL quarterback to throw for 400 yards in his first game, shattering Peyton Manning's first-game record by 120 yards. He also broke Otto Graham's 61-year-old record for passing yards by any quarterback in an NFL debut.[4] Newton went on to become the first rookie quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards in a season.

That's why we probably had to use what might be too much of the cap to pay Ben. Good young QBs are the best thing for your team, but they're super hard to find.

That is the quandary.

Players association should suggest a rule that no player can get more than say 10 percent of the cap.
It would pass because EVERYBODY ELSE gets more dough.
Only starting QBs would take the hit.

Rookie QB advantage......done.

[Northern_Blitz]

So true.
SOMEODY ON THIS BOARD suggested not signing either Brown or Bell. People still say he was wrong.



Not me. I never saw Cam that way from his first game. Here is why:
In his rookie year, Newton broke all-time NFL rookie records for passing and rushing yards. He became the first NFL quarterback to throw for 400 yards in his first game, shattering Peyton Manning's first-game record by 120 yards. He also broke Otto Graham's 61-year-old record for passing yards by any quarterback in an NFL debut.[4] Newton went on to become the first rookie quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards in a season.



That is the quandary.

Players association should suggest a rule that no player can get more than say 10 percent of the cap.
It would pass because EVERYBODY ELSE gets more dough.
Only starting QBs would take the hit.

Rookie QB advantage......done.

I agreed with you on Bell, but not Brown.

I think I'd still do a deal like that with a hof caliber WR because I think they're much harder to replace that RBs an I think they have a longer shelf life too.

I think disliking the Brown deal now (which isn't what you did because you were against from the beginning) is results biased.

I think having elite players you know work in your system is more valuable than bringing in UFAs on what are almost certainly above market deals. I think this is more true on D than O in most cases because I think reactive systems on D are more important than active systems on O.

I'd rather have an elite CB than WR. But I'd also rather have a guy I know is an elite WR in my system than a CB who's a bit of a mystery box where I have to pay more than the value the team that knows him best puts on him.

I don't have data that shows this is the case (outside of this being the Steelers strategy and their long term success).

My guess is that the Pat's example works because BB seems to be the only NFL coach who is actually able to run a flexible defensive system that actually highlights player strengths and hides their weaknesses.

Every team would do that if they could. But it seems to be genuinely difficult based on the fact that teams copy everything else from SB winners but can't get that right.

[Eich]

I think Cam can win it all because he at times looks like a really good passer. Dude is just crazy inconsistent.
But players like Cam reveal the downside of the “ability” to run. It can be an escape hatch that stunts growth as a passer.
But I look at McNair and Cunningham as guys who I believe matured into top tier passers as they de-emphasized their running.

Cam needs to do that to reach his potential.

I agree that Cam COULD win it all. He has the passing skills required.

I think his biggest problem is his mentality. He frustrates too easily and can't stay cool under pressure. Until he fixes that, I don't see him winning a ring.

[Oh wow]

I really think you are not grasping what I’m saying. I doubt you disagree with what I’m saying but looking at the criticisms of “running QBs” made by others and projecting that to me. Thus your bringing up Cam who is a good albeit inconsistent passer. He is capable of having an Eli or Flacco run. Given a hot hand I don’t doubt he can win it all.

I never used the term “running QBs” intentionally.
I deliberately said “run 1st.” Then explained my meaning.

QBs who are mediocre passers, but have success due to elite run skills don’t tend to win championships.
Do you really disagree with that?

A mediocre passer who can run well gives you a better chance of winning than a mediocre passer who can’t run.

We just watched Blake Bortles beat us and it was mostly with his legs. He extended 3 or 4 drives with his feet on 3rd down.

I think my problem with this argument is everyone agrees with each other in different ways.

An elite passer has the best chance to win a SB.

A mediocre passer who can run well gives you a better chance to make the playoffs and play for a SB.

Being a mediocre passer without any running ability is last on the list.

Maybe I’m reading it wrong but folks sound like they are saying a run first QB has it the hardest to make a SB and win it and that’s not the case.

If I’m building a team I’m not overlooking a mediocre QB who can run well if I’m trying to win as many games as possible and compete for a SB.

Some people make it sound like teams are handicapping themselves by having a run first QB when IMO it’s the next best thing to an elite passing QB which is hard as hell to find.

You had guys like Kelly and Marino who could spin it but never won a SB. What makes him so much better than Cam, Kap, McNair IF all we are talking about is winning a championship?

I think if your team makes it TO a SB you have a chance to win a championship and that’s what matters most.

Anything can happen in one game.

[hawaiiansteel]

Le'Veon Bell goes on tirade, rips critics who think that he's not focused enough on football

Le'Veon Bell is not happy with his critics

by John Breech

It's been more than 18 months since the last time Le'Veon Bell played in an an NFL game, and during that time away, the Jets running back stayed pretty busy.

From releasing a rap album to jet skiing to playing basketball, it always seemed like Bell was doing something to stay busy, well, except for playing football. During his time off, it didn't seem like Bell was spending very time on the practice field, which led plenty of people on social media to question his desire to play football.

After listening to those questions for nearly 18 months, Bell finally fired back at his critics over the weekend. The Jets running back took to Instagram on Sunday and went on a tirade.

"Hey, real s--t bro. I'm tired of social media s--t," Bell said. "I'm tired everybody telling me, 'Oh, Le'Veon, you not focused. You only wanna make music. You wanna play basketball. You do everything besides play football,' and let me tell you all something."

At that point, Bell's rant went into overdrive. First, the Jets running back pointed out that employees at other jobs aren't expected to focus on their work 100 percent of the time.

"Everybody talking, I know you've got a favorite person, a favorite athlete, your mom, your dad, whatever," Bell said. "Somebody who works at Target, do you think when they work from 9 to 5, they go home and all they doing is worrying about putting f--king s--t on the shelves? They trying to worry about what serial numbers are coming up? No."

Bell also pointed out that plenty of other famous people like to spend their free time doing things that don't necessarily have to do with their day job.

"You think [LeBron James] is waking up, he ain't have no Taco Tuesdays?" Bell said. "'Bron don't have no Taco Tuesdays, you all think he's hooping all day? You think Beyoncé is waking up singing all day? She don't go to work, she don't act? She don't do nothing else with her kids? You all think she's waking up singing?"

If Bell's worried about critics now, it could be a long season for him in New York. After sitting out for more than 18 months, there's no guarantee that he's going to be able to replicate his Steelers production in New York, and if Bell's numbers go down this year, there's a good chance his social media feeds are going to be filled with critics who will tell him that he's only struggling because he wasn't focused enough on football during his time off.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/leveon-bell-goes-on-tirade-rips-critics-who-think-that-hes-not-focused-enough-on-football/

[RuthlessBurgher]

Gotta love the irony when anyone logs on to social media in order to proclaim, "I'm tired of social media."

[Captain Lemming]

Gotta love the irony when anyone logs on to social media in order to proclaim, "I'm tired of social media."

Thinking just the same thing.