What makes LeBoo's D so darn complicated?

[NorthCoast]

...as opposed to giving Leboo a pass for consistently decreasing levels of performance. Any Def Coord can look good with a star filled roster but Leboo is suppose to be a "genius." Can't the really great ones do more with less?

Ovi, you'd work out real well in the Browns org. Fire 'em all any time they have a bad season or two. That's the mode they have been in for a decade.

DL doesn't get a pass. But given that he has a proven track record of putting together decent defenses, he at least deserves latitude to rebuild. A good DC can adjust for a weaklink. A great DC can adjust for a couple of weaklinks. A HOF DC can adjust for multiple weaklinks on defense. Question is; how many weaklinks have the Steelers had on defense over the last 5 seasons? My answer: more than normal, and with little to no talent on the bench.

[steelz09]

Ovi ... I hear two things from you regarding our defense. Lebeau's system is to complicated and takes to long for players to succeed in the system and that we need to switch to a 4-3. Which one is it?

Are you assuming that a 4-3 is a significantly less difficult system? Is it easier to find talent in a 4-3? I'm trying to tie in the relationships here with your argument. Maybe the defensive playbook should be simplified a bit or maybe the playbook is so large and cumbersome that it needs to be "trimmmed" to a certain degree. That I **might** agree with. Also, I **might** agree with the argument that Lebeau isn't as sharp as he once was due to age. However, I'm not buying that the 3-4 zone blitz should be scrapped because it's difficult and/or we should switch to a 4-3 as our base defense. I don't think that is the problem.

[Shawn]

But how long to you wish and hope the right talent comes together versus holding people accountable for the development of players and/or adjusting the system to what you have versus what you wish you had?

I can give L a pass in that sense because the Steelers have developed D talent with the best of em during LeBeau's tenure. Sometimes your team is just old, and some of the guys that you drafted just are not that good.

[RuthlessBurgher]

But how long to you wish and hope the right talent comes together versus holding people accountable for the development of players and/or adjusting the system to what you have versus what you wish you had?

If you don't think LeBeau's made adjustments, then I don't know what you are watching. He had Polamalu playing linebacker for most of the year...do you think he wanted to do this? No...his talent pool was lacking so he had to adjust on the fly just so his defense wouldn't be pathetically sucktastic. With the talent he had at his disposal, he was never going to reach the heights of dominance when Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, James Farrior, James Harrison, etc. were in their prime. He did what it took to get the defense to perform respectably enough to give our team a chance to win. Of course, he could have decided to scrap the 3-4 and switch to a 4-3 like the Cowboys did, with historically embarrassing results.

[Oviedo]

Ovi ... I hear two things from you regarding our defense. Lebeau's system is to complicated and takes to long for players to succeed in the system and that we need to switch to a 4-3. Which one is it?

Are you assuming that a 4-3 is a significantly less difficult system? Is it easier to find talent in a 4-3? I'm trying to tie in the relationships here with your argument. Maybe the defensive playbook should be simplified a bit or maybe the playbook is so large and cumbersome that it needs to be "trimmmed" to a certain degree. That I **might** agree with. Also, I **might** agree with the argument that Lebeau isn't as sharp as he once was due to age. However, I'm not buying that the 3-4 zone blitz should be scrapped because it's difficult and/or we should switch to a 4-3 as our base defense. I don't think that is the problem.

The basis of my argument has always been based on talent replacement. We take players and start a "conversion" process to the most critical position, primarily OLB but also Def Tackle to Def End, in our defense that at best we may have a 50% success rate with. That conversion typically take minimum of two years and lately it seems more. In a salary cap driven league can we expect to function effectively when we ourseleves introduce an additional potential 50% drop out rate on top of the normal NFL drop out rate? The problem is we have a gap between the old vet we have to keep too long because we have not successfully done the "conversion" and the new guy who isn't ready. The only reason this problem didn't hit us much sooner was because we got lucky with James Harrison and lets face it Harrison was luck.

IMO the 4-3 let's you take players out of college and plug them itno familiar positions in the NFL. You also put them in the positions you spend years scouting and reviewing film with them playing. The adjustment to the NFL then simply becomes one of the speed of the game versus complicating matters and combining speed of the game and new position.

[Oviedo]

If you don't think LeBeau's made adjustments, then I don't know what you are watching. He had Polamalu playing linebacker for most of the year...do you think he wanted to do this? No...his talent pool was lacking so he had to adjust on the fly just so his defense wouldn't be pathetically sucktastic. With the talent he had at his disposal, he was never going to reach the heights of dominance when Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, James Farrior, James Harrison, etc. were in their prime. He did what it took to get the defense to perform respectably enough to give our team a chance to win. Of course, he could have decided to scrap the 3-4 and switch to a 4-3 like the Cowboys did, with historically embarrassing results.

...and how many times do we need to finish in the bottom third of the league in sacks and INTs before we consider more than cosmetic changes? Troy playing LB is not a significant change. He played that and up on the line of scrimmage his entire career. The frequency last year may have increased by the basic structure never did. And let's not forget that Troy playing LB probably led to giving up the largest number of long plays in the NFL last year. So if that is the type of change our resident "genius" comes up with...no thanks.

[Slapstick]

...and how many times do we need to finish in the bottom third of the league in sacks and INTs before we consider more than cosmetic changes? Troy playing LB is not a significant change. He played that and up on the line of scrimmage his entire career. The frequency last year may have increased by the basic structure never did. And let's not forget that Troy playing LB probably led to giving up the largest number of long plays in the NFL last year. So if that is the type of change our resident "genius" comes up with...no thanks.

It wasn't playing Troy at LB that led to the number of long plays...

It was the talent deficient D that led to playing Troy at LB...

In 2012, the Steelers led the NFL in total defense...the fact that they could do that speaks volumes about LeBeau and his ability to scheme...

In 2013, the Steelers were 13th in total defense...337.6 YpG...amazingly, the #8 team (Giants) gave up 332.2 YpG...less than 6 YpG separated #8 from #13...

He was working with less every year and the Steelers somehow still performed at least respectably...

[RuthlessBurgher]

In a salary cap driven league can we expect to function effectively when we ourseleves introduce an additional potential 50% drop out rate on top of the normal NFL drop out rate?

There is no greater success/fail rate when trying to find d-linemen and linebackers to play in the 3-4 vs. trying to find d-linemen and linebackers to play in the 4-3. It is very hard to find a prototype 4-3 rush end who can also hold up against the run (i.e. not just a situational pass rusher)...think Reggie White or Julius Peppers. It is also very hard to find a prototype 3-technique DT...think Joe Greene or Warren Sapp.

Is it really more difficult to find a dominant 3-4 OLB like Lawrence Taylor or Demarcus Ware or a dominant 5-technique DE like Richard Seymour or J.J. Watt?

In either case, the truly great one are few and far between, and there are just as many hits as misses when trying to draft front 7 defenders for the 4-3 or 3-4.

[dizzfelt]

The basis of my argument has always been based on talent replacement. We take players and start a "conversion" process to the most critical position, primarily OLB but also Def Tackle to Def End, in our defense that at best we may have a 50% success rate with. That conversion typically take minimum of two years and lately it seems more. In a salary cap driven league can we expect to function effectively when we ourseleves introduce an additional potential 50% drop out rate on top of the normal NFL drop out rate? The problem is we have a gap between the old vet we have to keep too long because we have not successfully done the "conversion" and the new guy who isn't ready. The only reason this problem didn't hit us much sooner was because we got lucky with James Harrison and lets face it Harrison was luck.

IMO the 4-3 let's you take players out of college and plug them itno familiar positions in the NFL. You also put them in the positions you spend years scouting and reviewing film with them playing. The adjustment to the NFL then simply becomes one of the speed of the game versus complicating matters and combining speed of the game and new position.

you are spot on but they won't hear you...

Troy played LB last year so it shows DL is open to change

[Oviedo]

There is no greater success/fail rate when trying to find d-linemen and linebackers to play in the 3-4 vs. trying to find d-linemen and linebackers to play in the 4-3. It is very hard to find a prototype 4-3 rush end who can also hold up against the run (i.e. not just a situational pass rusher)...think Reggie White or Julius Peppers. It is also very hard to find a prototype 3-technique DT...think Joe Greene or Warren Sapp.

Is it really more difficult to find a dominant 3-4 OLB like Lawrence Taylor or Demarcus Ware or a dominant 5-technique DE like Richard Seymour or J.J. Watt?

In either case, the truly great one are few and far between, and there are just as many hits as misses when trying to draft front 7 defenders for the 4-3 or 3-4.

But you aren't retraining the 4-3 DE to be something else and you typically can see sooner what you have so you can be proactive in personnel planning. We typically have no idea what we have in an OLB for 2-3 years because they aren't on the field that much.

[RuthlessBurgher]

We typically have no idea what we have in an OLB for 2-3 years because they aren't on the field that much.

We (the fans) may not, but the coaches see these guys every day...they have a good idea of what they got.

[steelz09]

But you aren't retraining the 4-3 DE to be something else and you typically can see sooner what you have so you can be proactive in personnel planning. We typically have no idea what we have in an OLB for 2-3 years because they aren't on the field that much.

Personally, I think college defenses are producing more and more tweener-types than ever before which map easier to a 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 DE. They are very athletic but most of them are 10-15 lbs to small for OLB let alone a NFL-ready 4-3 DE. I don't think it's any coincidence that the NFL-ready 4-3 DEs are usually top 5-10 picks (Clowney) just like 3-4 LBs (Mack).

If there was an argument for any position, I would use NT.

[NorthCoast]

The basis of my argument has always been based on talent replacement. We take players and start a "conversion" process to the most critical position, primarily OLB but also Def Tackle to Def End, in our defense that at best we may have a 50% success rate with. That conversion typically take minimum of two years and lately it seems more. In a salary cap driven league can we expect to function effectively when we ourseleves introduce an additional potential 50% drop out rate on top of the normal NFL drop out rate? The problem is we have a gap between the old vet we have to keep too long because we have not successfully done the "conversion" and the new guy who isn't ready. The only reason this problem didn't hit us much sooner was because we got lucky with James Harrison and lets face it Harrison was luck.

IMO the 4-3 let's you take players out of college and plug them itno familiar positions in the NFL. You also put them in the positions you spend years scouting and reviewing film with them playing. The adjustment to the NFL then simply becomes one of the speed of the game versus complicating matters and combining speed of the game and new position.

This analysis would suggest you are wrong. Defensive line is consistently more risky in the draft than LB. So why switch to a defensive scheme that requires you to select more risky players in the draft?


[URL]http://www.nflstatsblog.com/2011/08/fun-fact-2-which-positions-are.html[/URL]

[NorthCoast]

Another case for defensive line being high risk:

The recent history of the NFL draft is littered with first-round defensive tackles who never lived up to their press clippings.Top-10 selections such as Glenn Dorsey (Kansas City, 2008, Sedrick Ellis (New Orleans, 2008, Amobi Okoye (Houston, 2007), Dewayne Robertson (New York Jets, 2003), Johnathan Sullivan (New Orleans, 2003) and Ryan Sims (Kansas City, 2002) have never played in a Pro Bowl and probably won't. Two of the six, in fact, are no longer in the league.
Defensive tackle isn't the ultimate hit-or-miss position, but it is pretty close."Because it's so hard to find [tackles], teams probably take more gambles at the position than at just about any other spot," said Carolina coach John Fox. "You tend to reach a little bit … and, let's face it, sometimes you get burned."

[Dee Dub]

Man this is tiresome!!

[url]http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/42265-Is-LeBeau-system-really-that-complicated-or/page5[/url]


[url]http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/37136-LeBeau-and-Saban-Two-different-men-same-defense[/url]