"It's scary how good Ben can be"

[NJ-STEELER]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

If the D is giving you 4 yard passes why not take them?

On 3rd and 10? The minute Ben does that on a consistent basis? It's time to replace him. Kordell used to do that all the time and then come off the field smiling like he just threw a 50 yard bomb.

On 3rd and 10 and in FG range... yes, take the 4 yard pass unless it's a 7 point game and there is 4 seconds left on the clock and it's the SB and a meteor is about to hit earth and we know this will be the last pass we will ever see.

why does every suggestion of Ben throwing a pass away or throwing short of the 1st down lead to him being some scrub QB?

Ben has thrown the ball away before and his number didn't change.. he didn't become black and he definitely didn't become a Bengal.

it shows that the problem isnt holding the ball longer. other QB's in there and the amount of sacks doesnt change

[Crash]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

How many times Ben has taken a sack in red zone???

In 2010? I would bet it didn't happen three times all year in the 12 games he played. I do remember a lot more RZ sacks in 2009.

Anyone want to look that up? Feel free to prove me wrong.

[feltdizz]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

The part we are frustrated is not the vertical stuff but the running game and predictable play calling or the red zone. Steelers never had problem moving the ball NEVER. Its the red zone offense which is killing this Offense. Dink and dunk offense is not going to cure that.


When your RB is going be No.1 WR you are not going to win much. As far as WR making plays can you tell me which WR on Steelers have great YAC?? Definately not hines ward or Mike Wallace.

You can't expect to have dink dunk offense if you are planning to throw ball 25 times. And you definately don't want to throw 4 yards passes on 3rd and 20.

YPA for QB matters a lot. Teams having QB with great YPA are always successful.

if we can't dink and dunk when the D is giving us the underneath stuff then we can't complain when the offense stalls for 10 quarters at a time.

Everyone keeps saying it has to be one or the other... why would anyone throw a 4 yard pass on 3rd and 20? That's like suggesting a FG on 3rd and short.

On 3rd and 8... if Mend is open in the flat at 4 yard and has room to run wouldn't it be a good idea to throw the ball to him?

I never suggested our RB be the No 1 WR... where did you read that? How did a suggestion about throwing to the RB more in the flat turn into Mendenhall being our 1WR?

[feltdizz]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

If the D is giving you 4 yard passes why not take them?

On 3rd and 10? The minute Ben does that on a consistent basis? It's time to replace him. Kordell used to do that all the time and then come off the field smiling like he just threw a 50 yard bomb.

On 3rd and 10 and in FG range... yes, take the 4 yard pass unless it's a 7 point game and there is 4 seconds left on the clock and it's the SB and a meteor is about to hit earth and we know this will be the last pass we will ever see.

why does every suggestion of Ben throwing a pass away or throwing short of the 1st down lead to him being some scrub QB?

Ben has thrown the ball away before and his number didn't change.. he didn't become black and he definitely didn't become a Bengal.

it shows that the problem isnt holding the ball longer. other QB's in there and the amount of sacks doesnt change

what other QB's? Oh Dixon, Batch and Lefty? Those are some great QB's at reading defenses and getting rid of the ball quickly? *sarcasm intended*

Lefty takes forever to throw and is a statue...

Dixon still isn't comfortable and doesn't see open WR's downfield...

Batch is old and held the ball for over 4 seconds on at least 3 sacks.

[Oviedo]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

Back on topic, the verdict seems pretty clear from this analysis. The high sack count is resulting from Ben holding on to the ball too long. Maybe, just maybe, our offensive line is not as bad in pass protection as we perceived. The problem is that I do not believe there is a cure for this problem. Ben's game is designed around him extending the play and he is not going to change that. Sometimes it results in a sack, but sometimes it results in a 40+ yard bomb. We will all have to continue to keep our heart medicine nearby while watching the Steelers games.

[url="http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2011/2/26/2012517/who-should-the-pittsburgh-steelers-blame-for-all-these-sacks"]http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/20 ... hese-sacks[/url]

I think we need O-line upgrade based on how Steelers play. Steelers offense is vertical and with mobile QB we need athletic linemen. Pouncey is a start. Steelers don't believe in dink-dunk passes. Steelers run the ball more than any other team and if Ben starts throwing 4 yards passes on top of 25 run attempts/game Steelers offense will be a complete mess.

I don't want that dink-and-dunk or throw the ball away offense. Its stupid offense.

It's not stupid football it's football the way it's supposed to be played.

If the D is giving you 4 yard passes why not take them? What's wrong with dink and dunk and the vertical?

This offense will be scary good if we incorporate more passes to Mend in the flat and let the RB's and WR's run for 1st downs instead of waiting for them to get past the marker and then throwing the ball.

Our O isn't half bad but part of the reason we get so frustrated with the O every year is because we keep trying to go vertical when the short stuff is available. We shortened the drops and went to quicker passes and had more success later in the year.

Correct. You take what the defense gives you instead of trying to force something that isn't there. You can wear down a defense with short completions and WRs who can run after the catch. We started getting guys like that with Sanders and Brown.

Short passes also keep the QB from getting sacked because the ball is gone. There is nothing wrong with using short passes and the run to set up a long gain. Long passes are usually low percentage whereas short passes are high percentage. I'll take the latter

[feltdizz]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

If the D is giving you 4 yard passes why not take them?

On 3rd and 10? The minute Ben does that on a consistent basis? It's time to replace him. Kordell used to do that all the time and then come off the field smiling like he just threw a 50 yard bomb.

On 3rd and 10 and in FG range... yes, take the 4 yard pass

How many times Ben has taken a sack in red zone??? Do you have any statistics on that??? I can't imagine it will be more than 2-3 times.Again i maybe wrong on that but i don't recollect more than 2-3 times.

not sure.. but I didn't say RZ I said FG range...

[feltdizz]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

Correct. You take what the defense gives you instead of trying to force something that isn't there. You can wear down a defense with short completions and WRs who can run after the catch. We started getting guys like that with Sanders and Brown.

Short passes also keep the QB from getting sacked because the ball is gone. There is nothing wrong with using short passes and the run to set up a long gain. Long passes are usually low percentage whereas short passes are high percentage. I'll take the latter

we incorporated more short passes after Ben had the broken nose and club foot.

imagine how efficient and how much healthier Ben would be if we did it all the time.

...and this doesn't mean we have to trade in the vertical to do it.

[grotonsteel]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

The part we are frustrated is not the vertical stuff but the running game and predictable play calling or the red zone. Steelers never had problem moving the ball NEVER. Its the red zone offense which is killing this Offense. Dink and dunk offense is not going to cure that.


When your RB is going be No.1 WR you are not going to win much. As far as WR making plays can you tell me which WR on Steelers have great YAC?? Definately not hines ward or Mike Wallace.

You can't expect to have dink dunk offense if you are planning to throw ball 25 times. And you definately don't want to throw 4 yards passes on 3rd and 20.

YPA for QB matters a lot. Teams having QB with great YPA are always successful.

if we can't dink and dunk when the D is giving us the underneath stuff then we can't complain when the offense stalls for 10 quarters at a time.

Everyone keeps saying it has to be one or the other... why would anyone throw a 4 yard pass on 3rd and 20? That's like suggesting a FG on 3rd and short.

On 3rd and 8... if Mend is open in the flat at 4 yard and has room to run wouldn't it be a good idea to throw the ball to him?

I never suggested our RB be the No 1 WR... where did you read that? How did a suggestion about throwing to the RB more in the flat turn into Mendenhall being our 1WR?

Again our Offense does not stall. Can you tell me a game where offense had trouble moving the ball??? Offense has RED ZONE problem. Moving the ball or time of possession is not a problem for offense.

[grotonsteel]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

If the D is giving you 4 yard passes why not take them?

On 3rd and 10? The minute Ben does that on a consistent basis? It's time to replace him. Kordell used to do that all the time and then come off the field smiling like he just threw a 50 yard bomb.

On 3rd and 10 and in FG range... yes, take the 4 yard pass

How many times Ben has taken a sack in red zone??? Do you have any statistics on that??? I can't imagine it will be more than 2-3 times.Again i maybe wrong on that but i don't recollect more than 2-3 times.

not sure.. but I didn't say RZ I said FG range...

What is FG range according to you? Steelers could not kick 40 yards FG consistently until they canned Jeff Reed.

Again i would like to see the number of sacks Ben has taken on 3rd down in FG range in 2010.

[grotonsteel]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

Back on topic, the verdict seems pretty clear from this analysis. The high sack count is resulting from Ben holding on to the ball too long. Maybe, just maybe, our offensive line is not as bad in pass protection as we perceived. The problem is that I do not believe there is a cure for this problem. Ben's game is designed around him extending the play and he is not going to change that. Sometimes it results in a sack, but sometimes it results in a 40+ yard bomb. We will all have to continue to keep our heart medicine nearby while watching the Steelers games.

[url="http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2011/2/26/2012517/who-should-the-pittsburgh-steelers-blame-for-all-these-sacks"]http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/20 ... hese-sacks[/url]

I think we need O-line upgrade based on how Steelers play. Steelers offense is vertical and with mobile QB we need athletic linemen. Pouncey is a start. Steelers don't believe in dink-dunk passes. Steelers run the ball more than any other team and if Ben starts throwing 4 yards passes on top of 25 run attempts/game Steelers offense will be a complete mess.

I don't want that dink-and-dunk or throw the ball away offense. Its stupid offense.

It's not stupid football it's football the way it's supposed to be played.

If the D is giving you 4 yard passes why not take them? What's wrong with dink and dunk and the vertical?

This offense will be scary good if we incorporate more passes to Mend in the flat and let the RB's and WR's run for 1st downs instead of waiting for them to get past the marker and then throwing the ball.

Our O isn't half bad but part of the reason we get so frustrated with the O every year is because we keep trying to go vertical when the short stuff is available. We shortened the drops and went to quicker passes and had more success later in the year.

Correct. You take what the defense gives you instead of trying to force something that isn't there. You can wear down a defense with short completions and WRs who can run after the catch. We started getting guys like that with Sanders and Brown.

Short passes also keep the QB from getting sacked because the ball is gone. There is nothing wrong with using short passes and the run to set up a long gain. Long passes are usually low percentage whereas short passes are high percentage. I'll take the latter

Short passes will work if you are planning to throw 40-50 times a game. Steelers are not going to do that. Steelers are going to run the ball no matter unless they are down by 20 points. When your QB is going to throw on average 20-30 passes short passes does not make sense.



Its not like Ben does not throw to RBs or TE you just don't want them to be your primary weapons. Steelers don't need to copy their offense similar to Cheatroits offense. Do we even have personnel to throw short passes??? Hines Ward is slow. Mike Wallace can't fight for the ball. Sanders and Brown are rookie. So many times they ran the wrong routes. Short passes are way too risky. Missed slant is a pick 6.

[feltdizz]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

What is FG range according to you? Steelers could not kick 40 yards FG consistently until they canned Jeff Reed.

Again i would like to see the number of sacks Ben has taken on 3rd down in FG range in 2010.

I'm talking NFL FG range.. anything under 48 yards is the norm I think for FG kickers in the NFL.

Jeff Reed couldn't hit a 20 yarder last year so using his distance doesn't work

[grotonsteel]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

Correct. You take what the defense gives you instead of trying to force something that isn't there. You can wear down a defense with short completions and WRs who can run after the catch. We started getting guys like that with Sanders and Brown.

Short passes also keep the QB from getting sacked because the ball is gone. There is nothing wrong with using short passes and the run to set up a long gain. Long passes are usually low percentage whereas short passes are high percentage. I'll take the latter

we incorporated more short passes after Ben had the broken nose and club foot.

imagine how efficient and how much healthier Ben would be if we did it all the time.

...and this doesn't mean we have to trade in the vertical to do it.

You do it if you have presonnel to do it and the minset.

Steelers mindset is to pound the rock. When you are throwing for 50 times a game it makes sense not when you are gpoing to throw for 20 times a game.

Heath Miller caught 78 passes in 2009 its not like Ben does not throw to TE/RB. You just don't want them to be your primary weapon. Again QB with great YPA has more chances of winning.

[feltdizz]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

The part we are frustrated is not the vertical stuff but the running game and predictable play calling or the red zone. Steelers never had problem moving the ball NEVER. Its the red zone offense which is killing this Offense. Dink and dunk offense is not going to cure that.


When your RB is going be No.1 WR you are not going to win much. As far as WR making plays can you tell me which WR on Steelers have great YAC?? Definately not hines ward or Mike Wallace.

You can't expect to have dink dunk offense if you are planning to throw ball 25 times. And you definately don't want to throw 4 yards passes on 3rd and 20.

YPA for QB matters a lot. Teams having QB with great YPA are always successful.

if we can't dink and dunk when the D is giving us the underneath stuff then we can't complain when the offense stalls for 10 quarters at a time.

Everyone keeps saying it has to be one or the other... why would anyone throw a 4 yard pass on 3rd and 20? That's like suggesting a FG on 3rd and short.

On 3rd and 8... if Mend is open in the flat at 4 yard and has room to run wouldn't it be a good idea to throw the ball to him?

I never suggested our RB be the No 1 WR... where did you read that? How did a suggestion about throwing to the RB more in the flat turn into Mendenhall being our 1WR?

Again our Offense does not stall. Can you tell me a game where offense had trouble moving the ball??? Offense has RED ZONE problem. Moving the ball or time of possession is not a problem for offense.

any offense that isn't finishing drives is stalling in my book.

When we went 10 quarters without a TD.. that is stalling.

[grotonsteel]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

The part we are frustrated is not the vertical stuff but the running game and predictable play calling or the red zone. Steelers never had problem moving the ball NEVER. Its the red zone offense which is killing this Offense. Dink and dunk offense is not going to cure that.


When your RB is going be No.1 WR you are not going to win much. As far as WR making plays can you tell me which WR on Steelers have great YAC?? Definately not hines ward or Mike Wallace.

You can't expect to have dink dunk offense if you are planning to throw ball 25 times. And you definately don't want to throw 4 yards passes on 3rd and 20.

YPA for QB matters a lot. Teams having QB with great YPA are always successful.

I never suggested our RB be the No 1 WR... where did you read that? How did a suggestion about throwing to the RB more in the flat turn into Mendenhall being our 1WR?

How many times Ben throw in game?? Instead of throwing a 4yard pass Steelers pound the rock. Thats is steelers mentality and it works. I don't care about style points. I want a W and a SB and throwing short passes does nothing to guarantee that.


Cheatroits throw 4 yards passes because they don't even care to run.

[feltdizz]

Re: "It's scary how good Ben can be"

The part we are frustrated is not the vertical stuff but the running game and predictable play calling or the red zone. Steelers never had problem moving the ball NEVER. Its the red zone offense which is killing this Offense. Dink and dunk offense is not going to cure that.


When your RB is going be No.1 WR you are not going to win much. As far as WR making plays can you tell me which WR on Steelers have great YAC?? Definately not hines ward or Mike Wallace.

You can't expect to have dink dunk offense if you are planning to throw ball 25 times. And you definately don't want to throw 4 yards passes on 3rd and 20.

YPA for QB matters a lot. Teams having QB with great YPA are always successful.

I never suggested our RB be the No 1 WR... where did you read that? How did a suggestion about throwing to the RB more in the flat turn into Mendenhall being our 1WR?

How many times Ben throw in game?? Instead of throwing a 4yard pass Steelers pound the rock. Thats is steelers mentality and it works. I don't care about style points. I want a W and a SB and throwing short passes does nothing to guarantee that.


Cheatroits throw 4 yards passes because they don't even care to run.

If you don't care about style points then you shouldn't care how we move the chains...

BA and Ben adjusted down the stretch on our way to the playoffs. Shorter drops and quicker passes to Sanders and Wallace.

We threw shorter passes and guess what? Our OL looked better because we didn't have to hold blocks all day for WR's to get 15 yards down field.

I don't care about style points either and that's why I think sprinkling in more of these patterns and getting Mend and Redman touches in the flat will help our team. Ben won't be so beat up either...

throwing in the flats is basically a hand off... Mend getting a few touches in space will do wonders for our offense and we won't become the Pats*... we will be the Steelers with another weapon for teams to adjust to.