Timmons is a great awful player

[SteelAbility]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

When I think of Timmons I think of the match versus the radiator. He has exceptional athletic ability. Hence, like a match he can get real hot ... but in one spot (the timing and circumstances have to be right and you'll see the full display of the matche's heat applied to whatever material).

But a match cannot heat a room like a radiator can. A radiator is an every-down LB who consistently takes good angles, holds his position and contributes strongly in control of the LOS. The radiator gets no glory. He creates a warm environment so his buddies can make plays and look good. I have yet to see that out of Timmons. If you want an every-down LB, you want a radiator, not a match.

I believe Timmons should be a situational guy (and perhaps get starts ... but situationally against teams that are particularly weak in the run game).

I disagree... he is not the weak link in our D.

I didn't read in there where he implied he was the weak link. The weak link in our D is obviously our secondary.

if you want to replace him on certain downs then it is implied he is a weak link... You don't replace strong links or capable defenders.

The key here is the difference between "A weak link" and "THE weak link." You said that you disagree because Timmons is not THE weak link. I never implied that he was THE weak link.

"THE weak link" means that all other links have integrity, except for THE one. "A weak link" means one of at least two that have weakness. Under that definition, I definitely feel that there are significant weaknesses in Timmons' game and he qualifies as "a weak link" ... and I will qualify this ... AS AN EVERY-DOWN LBer ... because he has not demonstrated that he can control LOS.

I have left room for Timmons' starting against teams with weak running games (or pass-first offenses).

[Shoe]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

It's not even close either. Everyone is hating on him because he was the 15th pick and he's playing like a second round pick, big deal. His rookie contract isn't stopping this team from doing the things they need to do financially. Every first round pick isn't turning into Troy or Ben.

There are problems that need to be corrected, he isn't one of them.

Pappy

I totally agree with you Pap, though... it does especially hurt when we passed up Revis (and considering our NEED at CB currently) for Timmons.

[Oviedo]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

It's not even close either. Everyone is hating on him because he was the 15th pick and he's playing like a second round pick, big deal. His rookie contract isn't stopping this team from doing the things they need to do financially. Every first round pick isn't turning into Troy or Ben.

There are problems that need to be corrected, he isn't one of them.

Pappy

I totally agree with you Pap, though... it does especially hurt when we passed up Revis (and considering our NEED at CB currently) for Timmons.

We did not pass up Revis. He was picked before our pick came up. At that point it made no difference. Need to quit misremembering to try to detract from the decision the was made.

[SteelAbility]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

When I think of Timmons I think of the match versus the radiator. He has exceptional athletic ability. Hence, like a match he can get real hot ... but in one spot (the timing and circumstances have to be right and you'll see the full display of the matche's heat applied to whatever material).

But a match cannot heat a room like a radiator can. A radiator is an every-down LB who consistently takes good angles, holds his position and contributes strongly in control of the LOS. The radiator gets no glory. He creates a warm environment so his buddies can make plays and look good. I have yet to see that out of Timmons. If you want an every-down LB, you want a radiator, not a match.

I believe Timmons should be a situational guy (and perhaps get starts ... but situationally against teams that are particularly weak in the run game).

I disagree... he is not the weak link in our D.

It's not even close either. Everyone is hating on him because he was the 15th pick and he's playing like a second round pick, big deal. His rookie contract isn't stopping this team from doing the things they need to do financially. Every first round pick isn't turning into Troy or Ben.

There are problems that need to be corrected, he isn't one of them.

Pappy

I think people are missing (or misinterpreting my point). My point isn't that he's a problem and needs to be cut or something. He is a good player and has lots of value to us. He hasn't lived up to his draft position, IMO. That's a different debate, I suppose.

I think Timmons is a problem as an every down LBer ... in the sense that ... we could do better. IMO Fox is more effective as an every down LBer. I've heard the point that Timmons is much better pass-rusher than Fox. No argument there. However, a counter argument is that a guy who is better at defending the run makes the pass more predictable, enabling the team as a whole to improve its pass-rush. It's give/take. From what I saw this year, the D was more effective with Fox in than Timmons.

I would also argue that Timmons' great pass rush is particularly most effective in obvious passing situations where he comes in fresh on 2nd or 3rd and long (made possible by the fact that Fox is doing a better job at stuffing the run) and not after he's a bit gassed playing hard on 1st and 2nd down.

That being said, I am all for starting Timmons against teams with either a weak running game or teams that are embarrassingly pass-first. In other words, imposing a "Timmons will start" blanket policy, I believe, hurts the team. I actually think the majority of the starts should go to Fox.

[Steelerphile]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

From my point of view, Timmons had a good season. He wasn't great against the run, down after down, but he did show at times against the run. He is a developing player in that area, and I don't think he did a bad job of it.

He is above average as a pass defending LB and a far above average burst to the QB. You can't have everything or else they would be chiseling out a bust for him already to Canton. I still hold to the belief that in time he will cover all areas well enough to be called a star and an all-pro.

[Chadman]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

The Steelers run defense was once again a strength of the team this season. We are talking about a top 5 run defense.

If Timmons is so bad at run defense, wouldn't we see a greater drop off?

Can Fox fix the pass defense problems?

[feltdizz]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

The Steelers run defense was once again a strength of the team this season. We are talking about a top 5 run defense.

If Timmons is so bad at run defense, wouldn't we see a greater drop off?

Can Fox fix the pass defense problems?

Timmons is fine..

[NorthCoast]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

Timmons did what he was drafted to do, cover TEs and RBs out of the backfield, occasional blitz. He is not a run stuffer at all. On a lot of running plays he is usually chasing his guy down from behind rather than meeting him head-on. He is definitely not slow, so it tells me he was out of position or took a poor angle to attack. I was hoping for Patrick Willis.... he would look real good in black-and-gold.

[SteelAbility]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

Timmons did what he was drafted to do, cover TEs and RBs out of the backfield, occasional blitz. He is not a run stuffer at all. On a lot of running plays he is usually chasing his guy down from behind rather than meeting him head-on. He is definitely not slow, so it tells me he was out of position or took a poor angle to attack. I was hoping for Patrick Willis.... he would look real good in black-and-gold.

And the difference between taking a good angle and being in position is a run that goes for 7-8 yards vs. a run that goes for no more than 2. Add up those plays over the course of the game and cumulative result is a straining of the D.

[SteelAbility]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

The Steelers run defense was once again a strength of the team this season. We are talking about a top 5 run defense.

If Timmons is so bad at run defense, wouldn't we see a greater drop off?

Can Fox fix the pass defense problems?

That's a good question, but a bit vague. In 2008 our D was at 80.2 rushing YPG. In 2009 our D was at 89.9 rushing YPG. I think people would argue the loss of A. Smith. I'll buy into that somewhat. The more important question though is how many YPC are we allowing. In 2008 we were at 3.3. In 2009 we were at 3.9 (about 18% higher).

Fox could indirectly help fix the pass problems in that the improved run stuffing makes the pass more predictable, which also means it's more defendable. Predictability is a major factor in producing INTs.

[papillon]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

I think he gets a bad rap as a run stopper because he is an explosive athlete for his size. I'm not saying he sheds blocks great, but he does get off blocks when he has good technique. When he allows mauling type guards and centers to get into him he has problems. As he learns he will become a better run stopper at the point of attack. His ability to pursue is unmatched on this team at the LB position.

Pappy

[Oviedo]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

Timmons did what he was drafted to do, cover TEs and RBs out of the backfield, occasional blitz. He is not a run stuffer at all. On a lot of running plays he is usually chasing his guy down from behind rather than meeting him head-on. He is definitely not slow, so it tells me he was out of position or took a poor angle to attack. I was hoping for Patrick Willis.... he would look real good in black-and-gold.

And the difference between taking a good angle and being in position is a run that goes for 7-8 yards vs. a run that goes for no more than 2. Add up those plays over the course of the game and cumulative result is a straining of the D.

Again the run defense did not slip because of Timmons starting so that isn't a valid argument.

In 2009 we were #3 (89 yds/game) versus the run and in 2008 were #2 (80 yds/game) Hardly a game changing difference plus we added Timmons' 8 or 9 sacks. The Timmons weakens the defense argument is ridiculous.

[stlrz d]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

Timmons did what he was drafted to do, cover TEs and RBs out of the backfield, occasional blitz. He is not a run stuffer at all. On a lot of running plays he is usually chasing his guy down from behind rather than meeting him head-on. He is definitely not slow, so it tells me he was out of position or took a poor angle to attack. I was hoping for Patrick Willis.... he would look real good in black-and-gold.

And the difference between taking a good angle and being in position is a run that goes for 7-8 yards vs. a run that goes for no more than 2. Add up those plays over the course of the game and cumulative result is a straining of the D.

Again the run defense did not slip because of Timmons starting so that isn't a valid argument.

In 2009 we were #3 (89 yds/game) versus the run and in 2008 were #2 (80 yds/game) Hardly a game changing difference plus we added Timmons' 8 or 9 sacks. The Timmons weakens the defense argument is ridiculous.

Where are you on the women weaken legs argument? :P

[phillyesq]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

Timmons did what he was drafted to do, cover TEs and RBs out of the backfield, occasional blitz. He is not a run stuffer at all. On a lot of running plays he is usually chasing his guy down from behind rather than meeting him head-on. He is definitely not slow, so it tells me he was out of position or took a poor angle to attack. I was hoping for Patrick Willis.... he would look real good in black-and-gold.

And the difference between taking a good angle and being in position is a run that goes for 7-8 yards vs. a run that goes for no more than 2. Add up those plays over the course of the game and cumulative result is a straining of the D.

Again the run defense did not slip because of Timmons starting so that isn't a valid argument.

In 2009 we were #3 (89 yds/game) versus the run and in 2008 were #2 (80 yds/game) Hardly a game changing difference plus we added Timmons' 8 or 9 sacks. The Timmons weakens the defense argument is ridiculous.

I think the YPC stat is more telling than the YPG stat, but by either measure, the run defense was worse this year.

I don't think that the run defense slipped just because of Timmons, but I'm not sure that he made the defense much better, either. IMO, he made more of impact last year playing only in obvious passing situations than he did this year as a regular starter.

On most sacks that I can remember this year, Timmons was unblocked. I haven't seen much from him in the way of pass rush moves at all. He was drafted based on potential, and IMO, he is still getting by on potential. His performance does not meet the expectations that come with his draft status. I think both David Harris and John Beason are better ILBs out of that draft class than Timmons.

[Shoe]

Re: Timmons is a great awful player

We did not pass up Revis. He was picked before our pick came up. At that point it made no difference. Need to quit misremembering to try to detract from the decision the was made.

My mistake. I read it here before, and just took it as fact. I'm sorry.