Then vs. Now

[steelcityrules!!]

Re: Then vs. Now

1) Ben. last season it was bradshaw in a landslide... but now, ben has truly stepped into elite status with fewer real weapons and stout linemen as his disposal. maybe the true arsenal and brick wall appears this season and he dominates like we haven't seen ever in the burgh.

2) Rod. The guy was all century for a reason. Troy is stellar, but Rod woodson was a true lock-down corner, blistering fast, and could hit like clark.

3) Harrison. This one was tough, but I really think he's not even close to content. He has this weird mentality about taking over a game, and with the maturation of woodley, he should be able to wreak havoc for years. The guy is a true silverback.

4) Ward. not even close for me on this. I believe ward plays the WR position like few if any ever before him. He is sure-handed, durable, typically out-matched in measureables... but never outplayed. He commands respect from his most hated rivals, and many of my best friends who are fans of various teams always say they would take hines to build their WR corps around.

5) Ham. I'll admit that I don't have a ton of footage digested of Ham, but his reputation preceeds him. Woodley is a beast in the making, but this comparison is too soon, and frankly I think they played the game quite differently.

[AngryAsian]

Re: Then vs. Now

I've been wanting to write in this thread since I read it yesterday, but I've worked 30 hours in 2 days and I have a 16 hours tomorrow with the big move. Not to mention Thr-Sat. (my normal shifts)... so I'll answer in pieces.

Ward vs. Swann - Probably what sealed my fate as a Steeler fan was Lynn Swann's Super Bowl MVP performance in SB X against the Cowgirls. That slow motion acrobatic catch that's been immortalized on celluloid has got to be one of the greatest sports footages ever captured. After that, Swannie was god-like to an 8 year old Asian immigrant fresh off the boat. All those teams and several championships, helped endear Swann and crew to not only me but I'm sure millions of fans. How could you not choose such a legend....

But I can. In my humble opinion, Hines Ward is the epitome of what it is to be a Pittsburgh Steeler. The underdog card has been his moniker and this has helped propel him to statistically surpass all Steeler WRs to ever wear the uniform, including Swann. But its not all about the numbers. Its about the grit, the passion, recklessness in which he plays the position. He's a blue collar badazz and has never minded taking the back seat to the running game (in years past). He's been a great professional and has played every down of his career.

Words can't even begin to describe his toughness... so I won't even try. The list of MRI's, CT-Scans, X-rays and countless of doctor exams that have been rendered due to a football player's encounter with Ward, is yet another testament to his legacy. The subsequent IRE that he's generated from opposing teams and their respective fan bases... more proof.

Bottom line: Ward over Swann

more later....

[RuthlessBurgher]

Re: Then vs. Now

I've been wanting to write in this thread since I read it yesterday, but I've worked 30 hours in 2 days and I have a 16 hours tomorrow with the big move. Not to mention Thr-Sat. (my normal shifts)... so I'll answer in pieces.

Ward vs. Swann - Probably what sealed my fate as a Steeler fan was Lynn Swann's Super Bowl MVP performance in SB X against the Cowgirls. That slow motion acrobatic catch that's been immortalized on celluloid has got to be one of the greatest sports footages ever captured. After that, Swannie was god-like to an 8 year old Asian immigrant fresh off the boat. All those teams and several championships, helped endear Swann and crew to not only me but I'm sure millions of fans. How could you not choose such a legend....

But I can. In my humble opinion, Hines Ward is the epitome of what it is to be a Pittsburgh Steeler. The underdog card has been his moniker and this has helped propel him to statistically surpass all Steeler WRs to ever wear the uniform, including Swann. But its not all about the numbers. Its about the grit, the passion, recklessness in which he plays the position. He's a blue collar badazz and has never minded taking the back seat to the running game (in years past). He's been a great professional and has played every down of his career.

Words can't even begin to describe his toughness... so I won't even try. The list of MRI's, CT-Scans, X-rays and countless of doctor exams that have been rendered due to a football player's encounter with Ward, is yet another testament to his legacy. The subsequent IRE that he's generated from opposing teams and their respective fan bases... more proof.

Bottom line: Ward over Swann

more later....

Hines' Clone doesn't appear to approve of Swannie in this pic:

[Lonbull]

Re: Then vs. Now

I can never do these type of comparisons because it is Know vs. Unknown.

Still would have a hard time, but I think this would be a more true comparison and fairer contest.

Chachi -I certainly didn't intend for there to be a "right" answer to these questions - or perhaps I should write that there isn't a "wrong" answer to these questions - because there is the element still of the unknown.

However the comparisions are strictly intended to stir up a debate between two great players and see where Steeler fans stand -

I think Ramblinjim summed up my thinking when he said that his answers could change depending on his mood - but as I said I just wanted to see where die hard fans stood on these players.

That being said the Woodley vs. Ham comparision is definitely "too" soon, as it seems there isn't anyone ready to catapult Woodley into that arguement. I just couldn't figure out a fair challenge for Woodley - Gildon? But Gildon owns that All Time Sack record. Joey Porter? But Porter is still playing - or maybe Levon Kirkland - but Kirkland played a different role in the defense and I'm not sure that's a fair comparision to either player - that would just be more of a popularity contest.

I'll also add one more thing that I've read in this thread regarding Blount and Lambert. I didn't choose the "versus" players because I thought they were necessarily the best Steelers players - I tried to choose two players who would give writers a chance to really think out their answers.

IMO - Lambert and Blount would dominate (for good reason) anybody you would compare them too that played a similiar position.

L.B.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Re: Then vs. Now

This thread goes out to my friend A.A. who is suffering from offseason maddness.

I've decided to introduce an idea of

Then Versus Now.

The idea is that I will take two Steelers (one Steeler from the past, and one from the present) and ask for you to choose which one you prefer. Since the off-season is slow and we could all use a good debate please explain in detail why you prefer one player over the other.

Since a few of these Steelers are Hall of Famers you must consider the "potential" of the current Steelers and ask yourself - does a certain players potential give them an edge over a player who is already finished.

I'm also very interested in what your deciding factor was in choosing one player over the other.

Super Bowl rings may come into play as well - however you also must consider how some of these players would have performed during the hey-day of the 70's.

I look forward to your answers - here are the players.

1st - Terry Bradshaw vs. Ben Roethlisberger - Bubby Brister

2nd - Rod Woodson vs. Troy Polamalu - Hank Poteat

3rd - Greg Lloyd vs. James Harrison - Kendrell Bell

4th - Lynn Swann vs. Hines Ward - Weegie Thompson

5th - Barry Foster vs. Willie Parker - Tim Worley

6th - Jack Ham vs Lamarr Woodley - Alonzo Jackson



L.B.

[Chachi]

Re: Then vs. Now

I can never do these type of comparisons because it is Know vs. Unknown.

Still would have a hard time, but I think this would be a more true comparison and fairer contest.

Chachi -I certainly didn't intend for there to be a "right" answer to these questions - or perhaps I should write that there isn't a "wrong" answer to these questions - because there is the element still of the unknown.

L.B.

Oh, I know.

It's just the reason I have a hard time comparing/debating players/teams or players/players from different eras and/or debating who is better between someone who has long finished his career vs. someone who is just in the middle or is only starting.

I do better at these when comparing equals. When the era is over and our current, future Hall of Famers careers are over, I will chime in with who was better Terry or Ben, Rod or Troy, Harrison or Lloyd, etc.

Just a personal thing.

Don't even get me started about the great team battles, ie. 70's Steelers vs. 90's Cowboys, stuff like that. I do even worse with those.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Re: Then vs. Now

While neither player plays now, I agree with those who would choose to compare Woodson with Blount. I would also choose Woodson as he had rules changed for him - that counts for something.

The comparison for Troy would be Carnell Lake. Both great players, and it is closer that you might think. Lake was much better in coverage - as witnessed by the way he replaced Woodson at CB in '95 and went to the PB as a CB that year.

But Troy does things that no other SS does - or has ever done. He is the spark plug that makes this engine go. His abilities allow Lebeau to design schemes that other DCs can only dream about.

Lake was a pure SS - hit like a truck and could cover anyone, but Troy is a hybrid who wins by - a hair.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Re: Then vs. Now

While neither player plays now, I agree with those who would choose to compare Woodson with Blount. I would also choose Woodson as he had rules changed for him - that counts for something.

The comparison for Troy would be Carnell Lake. Both great players, and it is closer that you might think. Lake was much better in coverage - as witnessed by the way he replaced Woodson at CB in '95 and went to the PB as a CB that year.

But Troy does things that no other SS does - or has ever done. He is the spark plug that makes this engine go. His abilities allow Lebeau to design schemes that other DCs can only dream about.

Lake was a pure SS - hit like a truck and could cover anyone, but Troy is a hybrid who wins by - a hair.

Troy's got Lake by quite a few hairs...



:P

[MeetJoeGreene]

Re: Then vs. Now

Part 1 of my answer.

Ham vs. Woodley.
This was the easiest (for me) and I will take Ham. Maybe because I remember him (i.e. Old)... but he is talked about as one of the great outside LB of all time. Woodley doesn't have enough of a body of work to eclipse him... yet. I hope in 5 years, this is a much tougher question.

Ben vs. Terry.
At this point, I have flipped and will take Ben. Terry had the better arm (it was just SICK), but I don't think he ever had to carry a team quite like Ben.

The remainder require more thought....

[papillon]

Re: Then vs. Now

1st - Terry Bradshaw vs. Ben Roethlisberger

Terry may be the best big game quarterback of all time, was tougher than nails and won 4 Super Bowls. He also played in an era when finding open receivers was much more difficult due to the rules at the time. If I had to pick one of them to lead my team to victory day-in and day-out I'll take Ben. He's a proven winner, since, no other quarterback has achieved as many wins in their first 5 years as Ben as accumulated in his first five. A sputtering offense that needs to score a TD or move into field goal range seems to miraculously resurrect itself when Ben steps in the huddle.

2nd - Rod Woodson vs. Troy Polamalu

Two of the all-time greats at their positions. They each get burned occasionally, but, each can change a game at a moments notice. They both played with reckless abandon and their team mates respected each of them. Each played special teams at one time or another and played well. Woodson transitioned from corner to safety and won a Super Bowl; he gets the nod here based something as ridiculously irrelevant as that.

3rd - Greg Lloyd vs. James Harrison

Both are meaner than mean and as intimidating a presence on a football field as there can be. Harrison will have some work to do rack up the stats of Lloyd and they'll both end of short of the HOF (probably). I also believe that when Harrison rushes the passer he is almost impossible to block without holding him and while Lloyd garnered many sacks he was blockable at times. I have yet to see a tackle manhandle Silverback. I take Silverback based on his nickname and ability to get under a tackles pads with ease.


4th - Lynn Swann vs. Hines Ward

D@mn Lonbull they get tougher with each comparison. The graceful tough as nails Swann or the bruising tough as nails Ward? The Steelers have never had a more complete WR than Ward and probably haven't had a game changer like Swann, well, since Swann played. They both played on teams that wanted to bludgeon the opponent with the running game and score points through the air once they were beat into submission. Ward blocks better than Swann, but, both were clutch; I'll take Ward in this one.

5th - Barry Foster vs. Willie Parker

Underachiever (Foster) vs overachiever (Parker) makes for a bit easier debate with myself. I'll take Parker here, I've liked Willie since he became a Steeler and I still like him now. He's been nothing but a Steeler type player and continues to push himself, expecting more from himself than what the coaches expect. Foster was a $100 talent with a 10 cent attitude and personal life. He was an awesome back for the Steelkers though. I'll take Parker.

6th - Jack Ham vs Lamarr Woodley

The technician (Ham) vs just plain old nasty (Woodley). The only game in which I can remember Ham looking horrible was against the Bills when OJ ran for 200 yards. Jack Ham actually came up clutching air on a few tackles. Woodley benefits from Harrison in the same way that Ham benefitted from Russell and Lambert. Two great players, but one doesn't have a large enough body of work to supplant one of the top 5 all-time OLBs in the NFL. Give me Ham.

There are a few others you could have included: Webster vs Dawson, Noll vs Cowher or Cowher vs Tomlin and there are some secondary players that could also be included: Shell vs Lake or Lake vs Wagner or Rocky vs Kreider

Good thread by the way, difficult, but entertaining.

Pappy

[MeetJoeGreene]

Re: Then vs. Now

Pap -- good call on the Webster vs. Dawson. That would be tough, although I would take Dawson (by a hair).


Here is Part 2 of my answer:

Hines vs. Swann.

It depends. Totally squishy answer, I know. But it would depend on who the OTHER receiver was that would best compliment the ability. I have always may the contention that Stallworth/Ward would be greater thand Stallworth/Swann. But if there was somebody Blue-collar, like Ward, already present, I would take Swann. If I had to take 1 of them, with a gun to my head, blindly............I would take.............Swann. Barely.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Re: Then vs. Now

Pap -- good call on the Webster vs. Dawson. That would be tough, although I would take Dawson (by a hair).

Dirt appears to have Iron Mike by more than just a hair (although not as many hairs as the Troy-Carnell comparison).

[flippy]

Re: Then vs. Now

I can never do these type of comparisons because it is Know vs. Unknown.

Still would have a hard time, but I think this would be a more true comparison and fairer contest.

Chachi -I certainly didn't intend for there to be a "right" answer to these questions - or perhaps I should write that there isn't a "wrong" answer to these questions - because there is the element still of the unknown.

However the comparisions are strictly intended to stir up a debate between two great players and see where Steeler fans stand -

I think Ramblinjim summed up my thinking when he said that his answers could change depending on his mood - but as I said I just wanted to see where die hard fans stood on these players.

That being said the Woodley vs. Ham comparision is definitely "too" soon, as it seems there isn't anyone ready to catapult Woodley into that arguement. I just couldn't figure out a fair challenge for Woodley - Gildon? But Gildon owns that All Time Sack record. Joey Porter? But Porter is still playing - or maybe Levon Kirkland - but Kirkland played a different role in the defense and I'm not sure that's a fair comparision to either player - that would just be more of a popularity contest.

I'll also add one more thing that I've read in this thread regarding Blount and Lambert. I didn't choose the "versus" players because I thought they were necessarily the best Steelers players - I tried to choose two players who would give writers a chance to really think out their answers.

IMO - Lambert and Blount would dominate (for good reason) anybody you would compare them too that played a similiar position.

L.B.

I thought the Woodley vs Ham comparison was great. I've been impressed how much field Woodley can cover for such a big guy. My gut would say compare Woodley to Kevin Green who was a pass rushing phenom just like Wood. But Wood is so much more complete. Wood has an amazing start to his career. And I think he could actually be better than Ham one day as his game develops. I liked the comparison.

I would have went with Blount versus Woodson. It's really hard to compare a CB to a SS. They have different impacts on the game. That said, I think Troy P versus Lambert would make another interesting discussion. Those 2 guys have a similar impact on their respective defenses. Much like Lambert, Troy is the guy you game plan around on the best defense in the league.

And I think I could make a case to reverse all my picks today. There's even a case for Woodley. He plays on the outside in a 3-4. Ham covered lots of ground in coverage and was the best, but he didn't have to chase the QB like Wood does. And that can wear a LB down. So seeing Woodley in coverage right after rushing is amazing athletically. That may make him more impressive than Ham from that perspective.

[TallyStiller]

Re: Then vs. Now

GREAT topic! Perfect offseason fare. Hats off.

Bradshaw... like some here have said, body of work. Ben's gotta convince me... not that he can't, just that he hasn't.

Woodson... youngest player on the 75th year anniversary team. All time best in the league's history, if he doesn't hurt the knee mid career.

Harrison... talent around Lloyd was, IMHO, superior. Greene was, at the time, one of the league's all time sackers. Chad Brown was an ILB there who went on to be a Pro Bowler at OLB, and Levon Kirkland was tremendous when he was playing at UNDER 3 bills.

Swann... far more significant a deep threat, and better all around than he's generally given credit for. He was very tough over the middle, too.

FWP... Foster gets an INC due to injury. I think those '90's teams win titles if he stays healthy - for a year there, it was Barry v Barry on the national stage - and to be compared to Barry Sanders is pretty high praise.

Ham... not too hard here. Ham was maybe the best cover backer in the history of the league. Woodley has skills for a guy his size, but can't compare... then again, this one is more applesand oranges than any of the others, because Woodley's pass rush skill set is better simply by virtue of the extra size that helps him take on linemen.

[fezziwig]

Re: Then vs. Now

I can remember other team coaches, players and sports writters mentioning that, teams would train their linebackers with films on jack Ham. Some other teams coach said in an interview, " Ham is so good we train our linebackers with playing films of Ham. He is never out of position, reads the offense better than any player he has seen before and his technique is perfect, just perfect. " I'll never forget that interview, just wish I could remember the coach that said it.