OTA VI Update

[Oviedo]

Re: OTA VI Update

* The rookie D-linemen -- Ziggy Hood and Sonny Harris -- did some work in a 4-3 alignment, bringing up the question again of whether Mike Tomlin is looking to convert to his more familiar 4-3 Chuck Noll defense that he learned from Tony Dungy in Tampa. Hood, after all, is better suited for a 4-3, so maybe that's what's on the back burner, particularly if Casey Hampton and James Farrior are in their final year or two.

I've been saying that Tomlin more than likely has plans for switching to a 4-3 since he drafted pumba (Timmons) I would not be surprised in the slightest by such a change now especially in light of the fact that he drafted two very mediocre 4-3 interior lineman this year. (Hood and Harris)

I have no illusions about the fact that he (Tomlin) indeed wants to prove that can be successful running his version of a Tampa 2 defense featuring starters that are "his guys",...ie: not exceptionally gifted and or productive,...but indeed ordinary as a bowl of grits.(Grits,..which oddly enough have nothing to do with football in a sense of keeping ones team from being outclassed via lack of on field talent)

Wow!!! A conspiracy to destroy the Steelers from within that only you can see. Thanks Oliver Stone. I'lll wait for the movie version.

Nothing personal but,....refer to my response to your babygirl sir.

Insightful and cutting edge yet again.

[ikestops85]

Re: OTA VI Update

I think we go to a 43D personally and thought so for the last 2 years. Once Hampton and A. Smith call it a day we have lost the thing that made our 34D more successful than any other 34D. A run stuffing front 3 that ties up 4-5 blockers every play.

Also LeBeau isn't going to coach forever and when he goes, there won't be anymore franchise ties so to speak, to the 34D.

I have to disagree with you here. The thing that makes our 34 defense special are the linebackers. We consistently put on the field one of, if not the top, set of starting linebackers in the league. While I agree that the D-line plays a big part they are not the fuel that makes that defense go. The LBs have to so many possible responsibilities in that defense it's one of the reasons that rookies have a hard time cracking the starting lineup. They not only have to be athletic but also have intelligence.

I don't think the Steelers D running a 43 in practice means much. They do it many times during the year. A couple of years ago Bad Word put in the 24 with Keisel standing up and moving up and down the line. Last year they ran the 15 in some of the passing situations. Yes, only one down lineman and 5 others milling about the line of scrimmage. When I see them start the game in a 43 alignment I will be very shocked ... as will most of steeler nation. I don't see where Tomlin cares whether we play the 34 or 43 as long as we win. Even if we do switch to the 43 and it is successful Tomlin won't get the credit ... the D-Coordinator will. Besides, it sure looks like Butler is the heir apparent to Bad Word and he is a desciple of the 34. Not that it couldn't change but why fix something that ain't broken?

If Tomlin is the ego maniac that a couple here think he is then he is more concerned about winning ... not about switching the defense. He is already getting credit for winning the SB in his second season of coaching. I haven't heard any talking head saying he won with Cowher's team. I'm sure Tomlin would answer his critics by saying "kiss my "

[NorthCoast]

Re: OTA VI Update

Here ya go:

The 4-3 vs. the 3-4
Cold, Hard Football Facts for December 9, 2007

By Mark Sandritter
Cold, Hard Football Facts taper of tales

Strategy and adjustments are an integral part of the NFL, with teams constantly altering philosophies in hopes of gaining a competitive edge.

Successes by one team are often duplicated by others, resulting in trends throughout NFL history. The evolution of the 3-4 defense provides a perfect case study.

The 3-4 is particularly relevant today with the two leading practitioners of the 3-4, New England head coach Bill Belichick and Pittsburgh defensive coordinator Dick Lebeau, squaring off in a huge AFC battle. Remember, Pittsburgh head coach Mike Tomlin was a 4-3 man but, after taking over the job earlier this year, left the 3-4 intact under Lebeau.

The modern 3-4 came of age in the early 1980s as a response to the dramatic increase in offense that came about with the end of the Dead Ball Era in 1977 and the rise of the Live Ball Era in 1978. But the 3-4 declined in the 1990s, only to see a renaissance here in 21st century, spurred in large part by its primary practitioner, Belichick.

Of the seven NFL teams that primarily employ a 3-4, three are the direct result of Belichick’s influence: his Patriots, of course, along with the Jets and Browns, both of whom are coached by former defensive coordinators under Belichick. In addition to Pittsburgh, the NFL’s other 3-4 teams are San Francisco, Dallas and San Diego.

But just about every NFL team, with the notable exception of long-time 4-3 practitioners Washington and Chicago, have used the 3-4 at one time or another. And, of course, in this day and age of zone blitzes and situation substitution, defensive formations on every team often take on a different look with each play.

In any instance, the ebb and flow of the 3-4 vs. the older, more widely employed 4-3, led us to a question: which defense is truly the best?

Although less than a quarter of NFL teams currently use the 3-4 defense, its success is still evident by the fact four of the top ten defenses from 2006 used the 3-4. Still, a number of teams have recently reverted back to a 4-3 defense diminishing the trend and adding speculation to the question of defensive supremacy. To answer the question the Cold, Hard Football Facts find some good sod and dig into the trenches for an answer.


TALE o' the TAPE: 4-3 vs. 3-4
Category

4-3 3-4 Advantage
No. of teams that 25 7 4-3
2007 win percentage .469 .610 3-4
2007 points per game allowed 21.5 21.0 3-4
2007 yards per game allowed 326.4 323.3 3-4
2007 pass yards per game 217.5 214.5 3-4
2007 rush yards per game 108.9 108.8 3-4
2007 yards per play 5.2 5.1 3-4
2007 turnovers per game 1.81 1.84 3-4
2007 sacks per game 2.1 2.3 3-4
2007 completion percentage 62.0 61.2 3-4
2007 quarterback rating 83.2 82.2 3-4
2007 red zone defense .504 .557 4-3
2007 first downs per game 17.8 19.3 4-3
2007 top 10 ranked defense 7 3 4-3
2006 top 10 ranked defense 6 4 4-3
2006 playoff teams 9 3 4-3
Big Play Index plays allowed 31.8 25.9 3-4
Super Bowl winners – last 10 yrs 7 3 4-3
Top ranked defense – last 10 yrs 6 4 4-3
Playoff appearances – last 5 yrs 49 11 4-3

Conclusions
1. 2007 is the year of the 3-4
As recently as 2001 the Steelers and Patriots were the only NFL teams using the 3-4 defense. Six years later seven teams use the 3-4 and although the numbers have been higher, team success may be at an all time high. If the season ended today five of the seven 3-4 teams would make the playoffs, with the Patriots and Cowboys billed as conference favorites.

For a comparison of success look no further than the win percentage of the 4-3 and 3-4 teams. Currently 3-4 teams have a .610 winning percentage, nearly 150 percentage points higher than the 4-3 teams.

Both of the 3-4 teams not contending in 2007 are in the early stages of transforming from the 4-3 with both the Jets and 49ers switching to the 3-4 full time in 2007.

2. But the 4-3 still dominates the league
Despite the recent Super Bowl success of Pittsburgh and New England, the 4-3 defense still dominates the league both in numbers and playoff victories. Seven of the last 10 Super Bowl winners used the 4-3 defense with the popular “Tampa 2” accumulating as many Lombardi trophies as the 3-4.

Of course, the limited number of 3-4 teams tells us that they were winning a relatively large number of Super Bowls.

The real measure of success lies in playoff appearances. Over the last five seasons, including the time of 3-4 revival, 4-3 teams made the playoffs five times more often than 3-4 teams.

Recently 4-3 teams have had success in pure numbers but also at the highest levels. Only three teams, New England, Seattle and Indianapolis, have qualified for the playoffs in each of the last three seasons, with both the Colts and Seahawks running the 4-3 defense.

Even New England, the most successful franchise in the modern era, won the 2001 Super Bowl while primarily using the 4-3 defense.

3. Statistically it’s about even
Despite a large disparity in team success, the differences between the defenses statistically is lower than Eli Manning’s passer rating. While the 3-4 holds a slight edge in almost all of the major defensive categories, the biggest separation is in red zone defense where the 4-3 holds a marginal edge in terms of touchdowns allowed.

In fact, the two defenses are almost identical in points per game, yards per play, rush yards per game and turnovers per game. Behind Pittsburgh’s reputation as a run-stuffing defense which is known for blitzing the quarterback it is often assumed the 3-4 defense tallies more sacks and less rushing yards. With rush yards per game separated by a tenth of a yard and sacks by two tenths there could not be a larger misconception.

In fact the Seahawks, a team which has not used the 3-4 defense primarily since 1989, have ranked in the top six in the league in sacks each of the past three seasons including leading the league in 2005.

4. The 3-4 takes time
While teams using the 3-4 are currently thriving, the struggles of teams switching to the 3-4 shows that it takes time to learn it and succeed with it. Not only do teams need a combination of versatile linebackers and quality defensive linemen, but coaching also plays a key role.

As we noted, three of seven 3-4 teams are the direct result of the influence of Belichick, who also used the 3-4 with great defense as the defensive coordinator of the Giants back in the 1980s. The Steelers continue to use the 3-4 primarily because of Lebeau. And two of the other 3-4 teams, also bear the imprint of a single coach, Wade Phillips, who employs it in Dallas and used it last year with San Diego (which continues to use it today).

At the same time a good offense can help speed up the process. The Browns, a previously dismal offensive and defensive team, are now poised to make the playoffs despite ranking near the bottom in many defensive categories.

The Bottom Line
The statistical similarities between the 4-3 and 3-4 defenses does little to solve the question of the best philosophy. Instead, a closer look shows the common thought of “defense wins championships” may prove to be wrong. The five 3-4 teams finding success in 2007 are all doing so with a productive offense while the Jets and 49ers are two of the worst defensive teams in the league.

The Browns and Jets have the 32nd- and 30th-ranked defenses but their difference in success can be directly related to offense. Even New England's rise to almost unbeatable status can be attributed to offense.

The Patriots ranked 11th in offense and 6th in defense in 2006, while compiling a 12-4 record. In 2007, the Patriots rank 3rd in defense but 1st in offense while already matching their 2006 win total.

In a league of fleeting trends, one of the most enduring institutions is the "what have you done for me lately" concept.

So with recent success the only most obvious factor in its favor, the 3-4 defense gets the nod over the 4-3 based upon the success of its teams here in 2007.

[url]http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_1920_The_4-3_vs._the_3-4.html[/url]

I think some have hit the point correctly. It really comes down to whether another DC can be as successful as LeBeau at running our 3-4 once he decides to step away. This is not certain and Tomlin may be trying to hedge his bets with a Plan B. I don't believe we will make a change while LeBeau is here, it would make little sense with our current success rate (sorry about the table formatting, hopefully you can figure it out).

[phillyesq]

Re: OTA VI Update

We've always used 4 man d-lines in passing situations. It has been a 4-2-5 nickel or a 4-1-6 dime.

We have, but it is rarely a true 4 man line. Last year it was mostly Smith and Kiesel at DT with LBs playing DE. I suppose a lot of this is semantics as much as anything.

[stlrz d]

Re: OTA VI Update

For those who don't know, Cold, Hard Football Facts is a site run by a Patriots fan and the majority of the posters on the forum there are Patriots fans.

That's why you get from them inane statements like this:

But the 3-4 declined in the 1990s, only to see a renaissance here in 21st century, spurred in large part by its primary practitioner, Belichick.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Re: OTA VI Update

We've always used 4 man d-lines in passing situations. It has been a 4-2-5 nickel or a 4-1-6 dime.

We have, but it is rarely a true 4 man line. Last year it was mostly Smith and Kiesel at DT with LBs playing DE. I suppose a lot of this is semantics as much as anything.

A lot of the folks who have been speculating about a permanent move to the 4-3 in the future have assumed that Woodley would switch from a 3-4 OLB to a 4-3 DE, while Harrison would remain a LB regardless of scheme.

[Chavezz]

Re: OTA VI Update

I think we go to a 43D personally and thought so for the last 2 years. Once Hampton and A. Smith call it a day we have lost the thing that made our 34D more successful than any other 34D. A run stuffing front 3 that ties up 4-5 blockers every play.

Also LeBeau isn't going to coach forever and when he goes, there won't be anymore franchise ties so to speak, to the 34D.

The only thing tied to the 34 is winning.

Pappy

Well said.

Trying to force a conversion from a system that year after year yields excellent results is foolish in my opinion.

Tomlin loves flexibility, and this isn't the first time the Steelers have toyed around with 4-3 sets in the offseason. If the Steelers install a 4-3 package into the defense to mix things up from time to time, and give opponents something else to prepare for, that could make a lot of sense. I could also see a 4-3 type set in passing situations with Smith and Hood inside and Woodley and Kiesel/Harrison at DE. For the most part though, I think that this could simply be some offseason experimentation.

What's more likely, switching to a 43 D or being able to replace A. Smith and more importantly Casey Hampton when we pick late in the rounds every year.

The 34 defense is not nearly as effective if the front 3 aren't commanding double teams. Do you think Brett Keisel is going to be our anchor on the dline? Really?
Ziggy Hood, Lamarr Woodley and Lawrence Timmons are all capable of playing and being successful in the 43 D.

If they don't draft a NT next year, then the 43 is a lock imo.

[Slapstick]

Re: OTA VI Update

And how about you thinking,...."God i should really get off of SteelCzar's Nutz" before you click "submit" ? I don't care to play grabazz with you sweetheart,....we can agree to disagree and you just keep it moving whenever i post anything that ruffles your Pom Poms.

I'm thinking that if you don't want me to comment on the inane and nonsensical content of your posts, you would be better served to post elsewhere instead of crying about it...

If you are posting your thoughts on a message board, you are giving the rest of us the opportunity to read and comment, however harshly...provided that we abide by the rules of the board...

Message boards are no place for the thin-skinned...

[Slapstick]

Re: OTA VI Update

I think some have hit the point correctly. It really comes down to whether another DC can be as successful as LeBeau at running our 3-4 once he decides to step away. This is not certain and Tomlin may be trying to hedge his bets with a Plan B. I don't believe we will make a change while LeBeau is here, it would make little sense with our current success rate (sorry about the table formatting, hopefully you can figure it out).

This is exactly right...LeBeau is revered for a reason...

What he does, in my opinion, cannot be duplicated on a consistent basis...if you have anything short of Dom Capers waiting in the wings, the 3-4 zone blitz won't be as successful...

[Steel Life]

Re: OTA VI Update

All I'll say is that the Steelers have won Super Bowls with a 4-3D & a 3-4D, it makes no difference to me. The Steelers have a reputation for dominating defense, rather than tradition, I'll leave it to the coaches to decide what defense is better to run to stop the offenses that are in vogue & trust that it will continue to kick a$$.

[SteelCzar76]

Re: OTA VI Update

And how about you thinking,...."God i should really get off of SteelCzar's Nutz" before you click "submit" ? I don't care to play grabazz with you sweetheart,....we can agree to disagree and you just keep it moving whenever i post anything that ruffles your Pom Poms.

I'm thinking that if you don't want me to comment on the inane and nonsensical content of your posts, you would be better served to post elsewhere instead of crying about it...

If you are posting your thoughts on a message board, you are giving the rest of us the opportunity to read and comment, however harshly...provided that we abide by the rules of the board...

Message boards are no place for the thin-skinned...

No, indeed the only thin skin here to speak of would be that of the soft, rosy and perfumed quality that covers your body.

As my words appear to "move" you a great deal. Why else would you even feel the need to comment upon the content of my posts with such regularity unless this was so ?

For if my thoughts, statements and opinions are so greatly, inane, make so little sense to you and are not valid,....why would you even take the time to respond in any form or fashion ? (This is remedial psych 101)

I'm flattered that you have a thing for me pumpkin,...i really am,...but sadly i do not hold you in such high regard. "But don't be sad,....it's not you,....it's me. I just need some space. I'm not really ready for this type of commitment. You deserve much better than me,..your special someone,..ya know"




As for the gentlemen here,...you may carry on with the said topic of this thread.

[Slapstick]

Re: OTA VI Update

No, indeed the only thin skin here to speak of would be that of the soft, rosy and perfumed quality that covers your body.

As my words appear to "move" you a great deal. Why else would you even feel the need to comment upon the content of my posts with such regularity unless this was so ?

For if my thoughts, statements and opinions are so greatly, inane, make so little sense to you and are not valid,....why would you even take the time to respond in any form or fashion ? (This is remedial psych 101)

I'm flattered that you have a thing for me pumpkin,...i really am,...but sadly i do not hold you in such high regard. "But don't be sad,....it's not you,....it's me. I just need some space. I'm not really ready for this type of commitment. You deserve much better than me,..your special someone,..ya know"

Or, you could suck it up and stop whining when somebody questions or criticizes your opinion...

There is that, as well...

[Chavezz]

Re: OTA VI Update

No, indeed the only thin skin here to speak of would be that of the soft, rosy and perfumed quality that covers your body.

As my words appear to "move" you a great deal. Why else would you even feel the need to comment upon the content of my posts with such regularity unless this was so ?

For if my thoughts, statements and opinions are so greatly, inane, make so little sense to you and are not valid,....why would you even take the time to respond in any form or fashion ? (This is remedial psych 101)

I'm flattered that you have a thing for me pumpkin,...i really am,...but sadly i do not hold you in such high regard. "But don't be sad,....it's not you,....it's me. I just need some space. I'm not really ready for this type of commitment. You deserve much better than me,..your special someone,..ya know"

Or, you could suck it up and stop whining when somebody questions or criticizes your opinion...

There is that, as well...

Steelers-fo-life anyone?

[Crash]

Re: OTA VI Update

The 34 defense is not nearly as effective if the front 3 aren't commanding double teams. Do you think Brett Keisel is going to be our anchor on the dline? Really?

How good was our defense in 1997 and 1998 when Nolan freaking Harrison and Kevin Henry were starters?

And, in 1995? Buckner and Seals were pretty good at applying pressure, Bill Johnson was a pretty good swing man, and Joel Steed was good. I would say those four were the best DL Cowher ever had.

But the secondary without Rod, still sucked ass against good teams didn't it?

The linebackers and secondary make the 34 defense, not the line.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Re: OTA VI Update

The 34 defense is not nearly as effective if the front 3 aren't commanding double teams. Do you think Brett Keisel is going to be our anchor on the dline? Really?

How good was our defense in 1997 and 1998 when Nolan freaking Harrison and Kevin Henry were starters?

And, in 1995? Buckner and Seals were pretty good at applying pressure, Bill Johnson was a pretty good swing man, and Joel Steed was good. I would say those four were the best DL Cowher ever had.

But the secondary without Rod, still sucked bad word against good teams didn't it?

The linebackers and secondary make the 34 defense, not the line.

The linebackers are without a doubt the playmakers in the 3-4, but you need a solid d-line in front of them to occupy blockers in order to allow the linebackers to make plays. The secondary is the least vital of the 3 groups.