Hahaha

[SteelerOfDeVille]

In this case I wasn't referring to his stats. I was referring to his light feet, lateral movement, burst, and ability to make the first guy miss (not broken tackles).
And I already posted that Harris' stats are closer to a David Montgomery.

Bettis never hurdled anyone - aren't those misses? *runs away from thread*

[Northern_Blitz]

Actually, you are kinda correct about my overall pov.

Keep in mind the larger debate. It is how we judge Najee. His critics suggest his lack of big play ability is a problem. I don?t think it is at all.

The biggest factor in running backs who win is that they move the chains consistently. Why? As Wizard says big runs are not common for anybody.

Frankly, I think Chubb, Henry, Barkley etc, are objectively better runners than Najee. They are chain movers with speed.

But THIS is where my general lack of value to the position comes in.

Do I think Blount himself is close to being the biggest factor in winning SBs? No.

Do I think Henry or Chubb could just as easily won those games AND LOOK BETTER DOING IT? Absolutely.

My point of highlighting Blount is that he is literally EVERYTHING THEY SAY NAJEE LACKS.

Yet he has rings with TWO teams while LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE HOMERUN HITTER WE HAVE MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD HAVE NONE.

My point is not that there is some value in NOT having great speed.

My point is that having great speed is MASSIVELY overrated in backs value towards championships.

A couple of things:

1) I don't think it's a problem now. Najee is the clear start on this team. And a better RB than Warren. But I do think his lack of big play ability is the reason he's not a top end RB and it's the reason not give him the 5th year option or a big second contract without big improvement this year (for the option) and next year (for whatever a 2nd contract looks like).

2) Does Najee move the chains consistently? I used to think that the answer was "yes". But I believe NC posted a couple weeks ago that his run success rate had him ranked pretty low. If I'm remembering correctly and that's true, it's not good. Because if you don't get big plays and you don't have a high success rate, I'm not sure that you can survive for very long in the NFL. And I'm worried that we'll offer him a big 2nd contract (because he's a good person and has good leadership skills by all accounts), but he won't save us from ourselves like Bell did. Time will tell.

3) Finally, the Blount case is a great example about why we shouldn't make a big deal about who's on the roster of SB winning teams. Brian Hoyer won a ring sitting behind Brady. But he wasn't the reason they won.

Let's look into Blount's contributions to those SB teams. He clearly contributed a lot more than Hoyer did, but he wasn't the main back on any of the three teams he won a ring with (so I guess he is like Bettis in that way?). I hope that KP becomes the next Brady and Najee wins 5 rings with us. But if that happens, it will be because of KP not Najee.

Blount was on three SB winning teams (twice with Brady at QB). Those three teams had a total of 9 playoff games.

• Do you know how many starts he had in those SB runs? 3.
• Do you know how many carries he had across those 9 games? 111 (12.3/game)

What he is is a better J Warren. Or maybe it is fair to compare him to the SB winning version of Bettis (but not prime Bettis IMO).

As I've said here many times, I think not being able to work out the relationship with Blount was one of Tomlin's biggest mistakes as a coach. We had him in the right role (2nd fiddle), but just didn't give him enough touches.

[Northern_Blitz]

Oh, I say S. Bakrley and Christian McCarffey are. While what do you know these RB's received big 2nd contracts. I hate to admit it but Nick Chubb can be Cleveland's first hall of famer in a long, long time too. I keep would keep an eye on these three men for the HOF. 1,000 yard sessions rushing and receiving, this group has.

I think Chubb is the best back in the league right now. At least top 3.

But I don't know what HoF careers look like as RBs anymore. He's likely to decline pretty hard in the next couple of years. Probably won't be a Brown in the near future.

[NorthCoast]

Bettis never hurdled anyone - aren't those misses? *runs away from thread*

Yea, you got me there.
I'm not sure Bettis could manage 3 inches off the ground.

(On a serious note I wish the coaches would drill Harris' leaping out of his game)

[Captain Lemming]

A couple of things:

1) I don't think it's a problem now. Najee is the clear start on this team. And a better RB than Warren. But I do think his lack of big play ability is the reason he's not a top end RB and it's the reason not give him the 5th year option or a big second contract without big improvement this year (for the option) and next year (for whatever a 2nd contract looks like).

2) Does Najee move the chains consistently? I used to think that the answer was "yes". But I believe NC posted a couple weeks ago that his run success rate had him ranked pretty low. If I'm remembering correctly and that's true, it's not good. Because if you don't get big plays and you don't have a high success rate, I'm not sure that you can survive for very long in the NFL. And I'm worried that we'll offer him a big 2nd contract (because he's a good person and has good leadership skills by all accounts), but he won't save us from ourselves like Bell did. Time will tell.

3) Finally, the Blount case is a great example about why we shouldn't make a big deal about who's on the roster of SB winning teams. Brian Hoyer won a ring sitting behind Brady. But he wasn't the reason they won.

Let's look into Blount's contributions to those SB teams. He clearly contributed more than Hoyer did, but he wasn't the main back on any of the three teams he won a ring with (so I guess he is like Bettis in that way?).

Blount was on three SB winning teams (twice with Brady at QB). Those three teams had a total of 9 playoff games.

• Do you know how many starts he had in those SB runs? 3.
• Do you know how many carried he had across those 9 games? 111 (12.3/game)

As I've said here many times, I think not being able to work out the relationship with Blount was one of Tomlin's biggest mistakes as a coach. We had him in the right role (2nd fiddle), but just didn't give him enough touches.

Look at how I described Blounts SB wins earlier and you can tell I know how many he started.

He was the LEADING RUSHER in the game on the SB winning team THRICE.

You do know you just agreed with my post you are responding to right?

And every time I talk chain movers I say IF Najee is that guy Im happy.

The only issue I have is the MYTH that breakaway speed is so valuable. In fantasy football sure. Championship? Not that big a deal.

BTW, in addition to Willie and Blount, the only back to be the main runner in multiple SBs during this era? Giants Bradshaw.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Yea, you got me there.
I'm not sure Bettis could manage 3 inches off the ground.

(On a serious note I wish the coaches would drill Harris' leaping out of his game)

TBH, every time he does it, I'm worried he'll come down on his head.

On the most recent topic in the thread - the weird thing to me is we all seem to agree that RB is not as critical as it used to be in the league. I don't really understand why this topic has gained so much traction.

I'm a fan of his, but will concede there are at least 10 better "pure runners" in the league, mostly due to the speed/agility factors.

Don't misunderstand. Dude has good vision. Dude has great hands. And he's got the mass to effectively pick up the pass rush. I think that while on a rookie contract, he's sufficient to win a 'chip. Now, I don't see a 'chip happening, but throwing Saquan Barkley back there wouldn't change that.

In the past, I've referred to the colts taking Addai over DeAngelo Williams (who was a far better runner) base purely on their abilities in the passing game. This stuff depends on what a team's looking for out of their RB (blocking, speed, hands, etc). When you find a guy who scouts think has it all, they go early (Bijan, Saquaan, Fournette, McCaffery, Elliot, Gurley all went top 10 over the last 8 drafts).

What many are debating is:
1) I want them to take what *I* prefer, regardless of how it fits the teams plans. To me, that's where a lot of these disconnects in discussions happen.
And
2) Why isn't the team selecting top 10 talents? Mostly cuz they aren't selecting in the top 10.

[Northern_Blitz]

it wasn't his fault... my wife asked, "why are they running? what if he fumbles?" To this day, I give here crap for asking this question.

There was a guy in a bar watching the game who had a heart attack... she nearly killed a man by speaking "curses" questions into the universe

Sounds like Ben saved your marriage.

[Northern_Blitz]

Look at how I described Blounts SB wins earlier and you can tell I know how many he started.

He was the LEADING RUSHER in the game on the SB winning team THRICE.

You do know you just agreed with my post you are responding to right?

And every time I talk chain movers I say IF Najee is that guy Im happy.

The only issue I have is the MYTH that breakaway speed is so valuable. In fantasy football sure. Championship? Not that big a deal.

BTW, in addition to Willie and Blount, the only back to be the main runner in multiple SBs during this era? Giants Bradshaw.

This is why I don't get why you've been arguing with me on this post. I think we basically think the same thing about Najee.

Breakaway speed is what gets guys big second contracts.

The thread this one spun out of was titled something like "predict Najee's production for the upcoming season".

And I said, I think he'll probably have more than last year (because he's healthy), but less than his rookie year (because I think we'll still split carries). That I think Najee gets yards because of the volume he gets, where the guys who put up huge numbers tend to be consistently good AND rip of a few huge runs a year.

And before that, it comes from guys like Wizard saying that he thought that Najee was as good or better than Chubb (similar to how he recently said that it would be easy for KP to have a better career than Ben).

I have always said that I think Najee is probably somewhat above average RB because he's good all around. But he doesn't have the big money trait of breaking big runs. I think it's because he's probably slower than people think (especially people that didn't realize that the 40 times that were somehow posted for him pre-draft aren't real).

Again...I hope he becomes Blount in terms of production and in terms of contract value. But I worry that we'll give him the "we like this guy" contract. And the more I think about it, the more I think he won't end up earning the 5th year option because (1) he won't be worth to be ~ 10th paid highest RB in the league and (2) we haven't given anyone an option for just having the "playing time" tier for the option (although it's still pretty new). Which I think is unfortunate. Because I'd rather that he be awesome.

[feltdizz]

This is why I don't get why you've been arguing with me on this post. I think we basically think the same thing about Najee.

Breakaway speed is what gets guys big second contracts.

The thread this one spun out of was titled something like "predict Najee's production for the upcoming season".

And I said, I think he'll probably have more than last year (because he's healthy), but less than his rookie year (because I think we'll still split carries). That I think Najee gets yards because of the volume he gets, where the guys who put up huge numbers tend to be consistently good AND rip of a few huge runs a year.

And before that, it comes from guys like Wizard saying that he thought that Najee was as good or better than Chubb (similar to how he recently said that it would be easy for KP to have a better career than Ben).

I have always said that I think Najee is probably somewhat above average RB because he's good all around. But he doesn't have the big money trait of breaking big runs. I think it's because he's probably slower than people think (especially people that didn't realize that the 40 times that were somehow posted for him pre-draft aren't real).

Again...I hope he becomes Blount in terms of production and in terms of contract value. But I worry that we'll give him the "we like this guy" contract. And the more I think about it, the more I think he won't end up earning the 5th year option because (1) he won't be worth to be ~ 10th paid highest RB in the league and (2) we haven't given anyone an option for just having the "playing time" tier for the option (although it's still pretty new). Which I think is unfortunate. Because I'd rather that he be awesome.

Breakaway speed isn’t what gets RB’s second contracts. Its consistent production.

Zeke didnt have it. Bell didnt have it. Henry doesn’t have it.

The funny thing about Zeke is he does have 4.47 speed but his longest run each year is 60, 30, 41, 33, 31, 47, 27. Only cracked 5 ypc 1 year.


Henry gets big runs, but often its because teams crowd the LOS and one miss and he’s gone. He isn’t taking sweeps to the house or zig zagging around defenders. Dude is special though, I give him that. He’s in a different tier for his size and what he can do.

but I think teams pay RB’s when they VALUE their workload. Its as simple as that. Its not based on breakaway speed. Its based on production.

[Captain Lemming]

This is why I don't get why you've been arguing with me on this post. I think we basically think the same thing about Najee.

Breakaway speed is what gets guys big second contracts.

The thread this one spun out of was titled something like "predict Najee's production for the upcoming season".

You keep talking 2nd contract. That is not at all what Im talking about.

My opinion on 2nd contracts? The opposite of yours.

I am LESS LIKELY to give one to an all pro than a good back. Frankly, might not pay a good back. Why?

Because no back is THAT valuable in pursuing championships. Spend those dollars elsewhere and draft a back.

I don?t care how stupid teams pay backs on the market. All I care about is whether our back can support a SB run.

There is little correlation between game breaking speed in a back and that goal.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

You keep talking 2nd contract. That is not at all what Im talking about.

My opinion on 2nd contracts? The opposite of yours.

I am LESS LIKELY to give one to an all pro than a good back. Frankly, might not pay a good back. Why?

Because no back is THAT valuable in pursuing championships. Spend those dollars elsewhere and draft a back.

I don?t care how stupid teams pay backs on the market. All I care about is whether our back can support a SB run.

There is little correlation between game breaking speed in a back and that goal.

truth be told, I think Harris gets a second contract... but, a modest one. I don't see him sniffing top 10 paid - rather something like $4-6 mil per...

[Joel Buchsbaum]

I think the gold part isn't true.

The best comparison I think we have for this is how they do on 1st and 10. And Najee does better than Warren there.

I think Najee is an above average back, but not a star (at least yet).

Warren is a good guy who can come in and spell a better back (at least so far).

Oh yes it is. I compare Harris YPR and YPC on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down to Warren. All 77 rushes and 28 catches. That's over 100 players with the ball in his hands. We know this. Enough action to judge.

Now, I think Harris is a below average staring back and none of the projected 2023 starters at Running back average less than Harris career average at YPR and YPC. Can we make peace on that? That should be easy because its true.

Warren I think would be a better feature back as the data shows. I think and he is is faster, and the better runner of the two, but I'm not the head coach who picks who starts for games, Tomlin is.

- JB

[Joel Buchsbaum]

Bettis never hurdled anyone - aren't those misses? *runs away from thread*

I don't know about that, but I do recall Bettis running over people . Bettis had better feet in comparison the Najee Harris. As a power runner I would not compare the two men.

[feltdizz]

truth be told, I think Harris gets a second contract... but, a modest one. I don't see him sniffing top 10 paid - rather something like $4-6 mil per...

I think he gets more than that. Look at what we gave DJ.

I think fans need to remember who we are. Najee is the type of player the Rooney’s love. I definitely think he gets a few more dollars from us.

[feltdizz]

Oh yes it is. I compare Harris YPR and YPC on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down to Warren. All 77 rushes and 28 catches. That's over 100 players with the ball in his hands. We know this. Enough action to judge.

Now, I think Harris is a below average staring back and none of the projected 2023 starters at Running back average less than Harris career average at YPR and YPC. Can we make peace on that? That should be easy because its true.

Warren I think would be a better feature back as the data shows. I think and he is is faster, and the better runner of the two, but I'm not the head coach who picks who starts for games, Tomlin is.

- JB

you have to be a bot. How else
can someone repeat the same damn thing this many times with this much enthusiasm.