Lamar signs 5 year extension

[feltdizz]

But everything is in degrees. If LJ was more of a pocket passer, would he have missed the end of the last 2 seasons?

How was Jimmy G injured this year?

Where was Tua when he was injured?

Why didn’t Tannehill finish the season?

Its hindsight to say “if a player didn’t run as much he would’ve remained healthy”

In 2022 Lamar was injured in the pocket while looking downfield.

https://twitter.com/Broncos/status/1599472782059847680?s=20

[Northern_Blitz]

How many games has Jimmy G missed in his career?

Tua isn?t looking like a good investment in Miami.

I don?t think the stats show any higher risk of injury for running as a QB vs a drop back QB. The stats don?t agree with this line of thinking.

I?m not forgetting that Lamar also drops back, I?m showing that 10 designed runs are probably less risky than dropping back another 10 times and risking injury while throwing or getting hit in the pocket while stationary.

I think this is why we are seeing more mobile QB?s getting huge contracts. The game is changing and if a Tannehill, Jimmy G and Matt Stafford can be lost for a season or ling stretch why not play and pay a mobile QB if the risk are the same or less?

I know everyone likes to say mobile QB?s have higher risk but the numbers aren?t there to back up that claim.

and Ben had Ugly Ben but like others have stated, did Ben truly decline or did our D lose playmakers in Troy, Clark and JH (in his prime).

Statistically Ben was ?better? later in his career.

I think the 49ers are a great study case that last year that showed how QB?s can get injured whether running, passing or avoiding a sack.

I think we're seeing more mobile QBs get huge contracts because QBs in general are getting more mobile. The league uses the players that get prepared in college.

I think finding an average-ish athletic QB is probably easier than finding an average-ish passing QB (although QBs like Mason that are closer to pure drop back passers don't succeed in the league anymore).

I think this will end up commoditizing QBs (which is probably what the teams want). Guys that end up being good for a contract or two, but can be switched out more easily afterward.

Ultimately, it's an experiment. We'll see how it goes.

Re: Ben. His stats were better because we passed way more. But he didn't have the magic anymore. And for him to be as good as he was after losing his super-power I think required a significant evolution in his passing game. And most QBs historically haven't been able to make a change like that.

Ben did truly decline. He didn't have the Hulk-like ability to shed DL and then make the bomb. Just like everyone obviously predicted after he was in the league for a few years. Humans can't take that kind of punishment for 15 years. So we went to the "passing is the new running" offense.

Re: Numbers I don't know if the numbers back up the claim or not. I don't have the data. And the data you presented is something like injury risk per type of hit. It doesn't account for the number of hits guys take. I know you don't believe that's a factor, but the more times you roll the dice the more likely you are to eventually hit snake-eyes.

[whisper]

I think we're seeing more mobile QBs get huge contracts because QBs in general are getting more mobile. The league uses the players that get prepared in college.

I think finding an average-ish athletic QB is probably easier than finding an average-ish passing QB (although QBs like Mason that are closer to pure drop back passers don't succeed in the league anymore).

I think this will end up commoditizing QBs (which is probably what the teams want). Guys that end up being good for a contract or two, but can be switched out more easily afterward.

Ultimately, it's an experiment. We'll see how it goes.

Re: Ben. His stats were better because we passed way more. But he didn't have the magic anymore. And for him to be as good as he was after losing his super-power I think required a significant evolution in his passing game. And most QBs historically haven't been able to make a change like that.

Ben did truly decline. He didn't have the Hulk-like ability to shed DL and then make the bomb. Just like everyone obviously predicted after he was in the league for a few years. Humans can't take that kind of punishment for 15 years. So we went to the "passing is the new running" offense.

Re: Numbers I don't know if the numbers back up the claim or not. I don't have the data. And the data you presented is something like injury risk per type of hit. It doesn't account for the number of hits guys take. I know you don't believe that's a factor, but the more times you roll the dice the more likely you are to eventually hit snake-eyes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7M7d8u40I4

[Captain Lemming]

Could not be more wrong about Ben. . Not post injury Ben but just prior to injury?

WAAAY better than 2008 Ben.
Lets use 2014 as an example.

MUCH higher TD PERCENTAGE as well as total
MUCH lower interception PERCENTAGE as well as total.

MUCH HIGHER completion PERCENTAGE

Higher ypa.

Difference?
18th ranked defense.

We allowed over 30 in the playoffs.

Beginning in his ROOKIE season Ben has NEVER WON ONE post season game when an opponent scores 30.

Blame Ben all you want for recent failures due to HIS mistakes. He has PLENTY of playoff wins early in his career DESPITE early game mistakes.

He did it IN SBs. Difference between winning and losing was the defense EVERY TIME.

Look at BOTH Jets playoff WINS. Ben was absolute garbage. Not just multiple turnovers, turnovers for scores.

2014-2018 was FAR SMARTER and NOTHING in his play would indicate he would lose games we won earlier in his career.

I repeat he NEVER EVER won a playoff game allowing 30 points going back to his rookie season.

THE LAST TIME THE STEELERS ALLOWED LESS THAN 30 WAS OUR LAST PLAYOFF WIN.

DEFENSE IS ABSOLUTELY the difference in post season wins and losses throughout Bens career.

[whisper]

Could not be more wrong about Ben. . Not post injury Ben but just prior to injury?

WAAAY better than 2008 Ben.
Lets use 2014 as an example.

MUCH higher TD PERCENTAGE as well as total
MUCH lower interception PERCENTAGE as well as total.

MUCH HIGHER completion PERCENTAGE

Higher ypa.

Difference?
18th ranked defense.

We allowed over 30 in the playoffs.

Beginning in his ROOKIE season Ben has NEVER WON ONE post season game when an opponent scores 30.

Blame Ben all you want for recent failures due to HIS mistakes. He has PLENTY of playoff wins early in his career DESPITE early game mistakes.

He did it IN SBs. Difference between winning and losing was the defense EVERY TIME.

Look at BOTH Jets playoff WINS. Ben was absolute garbage. Not just multiple turnovers, turnovers for scores.

2014-2018 was FAR SMARTER and NOTHING in his play would indicate he would lose games we won earlier in his career.

I repeat he NEVER EVER won a playoff game allowing 30 points going back to his rookie season.

THE LAST TIME THE STEELERS ALLOWED LESS THAN 30 WAS OUR LAST PLAYOFF WIN.

DEFENSE IS ABSOLUTELY the difference in post season wins and losses throughout Bens career.

I think a lot of QBs would follow the same pattern: opposition scores over 30, they lose. Where was Tomlin's defensive genius in the last 3 playoff games? He gave up 40+ in all 3. Horrendous.

[feltdizz]

Could not be more wrong about Ben. . Not post injury Ben but just prior to injury?

WAAAY better than 2008 Ben.
Lets use 2014 as an example.

MUCH higher TD PERCENTAGE as well as total
MUCH lower interception PERCENTAGE as well as total.

MUCH HIGHER completion PERCENTAGE

Higher ypa.

Difference?
18th ranked defense.

We allowed over 30 in the playoffs.

Beginning in his ROOKIE season Ben has NEVER WON ONE post season game when an opponent scores 30.

Blame Ben all you want for recent failures due to HIS mistakes. He has PLENTY of playoff wins early in his career DESPITE early game mistakes.

He did it IN SBs. Difference between winning and losing was the defense EVERY TIME.

Look at BOTH Jets playoff WINS. Ben was absolute garbage. Not just multiple turnovers, turnovers for scores.

2014-2018 was FAR SMARTER and NOTHING in his play would indicate he would lose games we won earlier in his career.

I repeat he NEVER EVER won a playoff game allowing 30 points going back to his rookie season.

THE LAST TIME THE STEELERS ALLOWED LESS THAN 30 WAS OUR LAST PLAYOFF WIN.

DEFENSE IS ABSOLUTELY the difference in post season wins and losses throughout Bens career.

Did you call Ben garbage?

You know someone is going to quote you and put that in a sig

[Mr.wizard]

But everything is in degrees. If LJ was more of a pocket passer, would he have missed the end of the last 2 seasons?

That is impossible to quantify because he has been hurt in the pocket as well and you also don't know how many injuries he may have avoided by being mobile.

[feltdizz]

That is impossible to quantify because he has been hurt in the pocket as well and you also don't know how many injuries he may have avoided by being mobile.

Exactly. Its recency bias too.

First Lamar was figured out after the Rats had a million injuries before the season 2 years ago.

Then its “Lamar missed 10 games the last 2 years” which proves he is injury prone.

But look at another QB like Jimmy G. How many games has he missed and why?

My issue is when drop back QB’s get hurt its just football but as soon as a mobile QB misses time “ITS PROOF”

Lamar had 176 rushing attempts in 2019. No significant injuries but an injury the next year is because the running caught up to him.

When a passing QB gets injured no one says the drop backs caught up to him or the sacks caught up to him.. lol.

You can’t predict injury BUT since its football the chances of getting an injury for any player is high because eventually the body gets twisted or a bone breaks due to the physical nature of the game.

[whisper]

Exactly. Its recency bias too.

First Lamar was figured out after the Rats had a million injuries before the season 2 years ago.

Then its “Lamar missed 10 games the last 2 years” which proves he is injury prone.

But look at another QB like Jimmy G. How many games has he missed and why?

My issue is when drop back QB’s get hurt its just football but as soon as a mobile QB misses time “ITS PROOF”

Lamar had 176 rushing attempts in 2019. No significant injuries but an injury the next year is because the running caught up to him.

When a passing QB gets injured no one says the drop backs caught up to him or the sacks caught up to him.. lol.

You can’t predict injury BUT since its football the chances of getting an injury for any player is high because eventually the body gets twisted or a bone breaks due to the physical nature of the game.

You keep bringing up Jimmy G. the most-injured QB in recent NFL history as your comparison, way to go. That's really sound evidence. ROTMFFLMMFAO.

[Mr.wizard]

Exactly. Its recency bias too.

First Lamar was figured out after the Rats had a million injuries before the season 2 years ago.

Then its “Lamar missed 10 games the last 2 years” which proves he is injury prone.

But look at another QB like Jimmy G. How many games has he missed and why?

My issue is when drop back QB’s get hurt its just football but as soon as a mobile QB misses time “ITS PROOF”

Lamar had 176 rushing attempts in 2019. No significant injuries but an injury the next year is because the running caught up to him.

When a passing QB gets injured no one says the drop backs caught up to him or the sacks caught up to him.. lol.

You can’t predict injury BUT since its football the chances of getting an injury for any player is high because eventually the body gets twisted or a bone breaks due to the physical nature of the game.

Ya the only way I buy the too many hits argument is if the QB is running in between the tackles and taking on defenders. Most of the time when a mobile QB runs it is him escaping the pocket and once a guy like Jackson is in the open field there is a slim chance someone is squaring him up for a big hit. Most QB's in the league now are mobile, teams are moving away from the statue QB's.

[Northern_Blitz]

Could not be more wrong about Ben. . Not post injury Ben but just prior to injury?

WAAAY better than 2008 Ben.
Lets use 2014 as an example.

MUCH higher TD PERCENTAGE as well as total
MUCH lower interception PERCENTAGE as well as total.

MUCH HIGHER completion PERCENTAGE

Higher ypa.

Difference?
18th ranked defense.

We allowed over 30 in the playoffs.

Beginning in his ROOKIE season Ben has NEVER WON ONE post season game when an opponent scores 30.

Blame Ben all you want for recent failures due to HIS mistakes. He has PLENTY of playoff wins early in his career DESPITE early game mistakes.

He did it IN SBs. Difference between winning and losing was the defense EVERY TIME.

Look at BOTH Jets playoff WINS. Ben was absolute garbage. Not just multiple turnovers, turnovers for scores.

2014-2018 was FAR SMARTER and NOTHING in his play would indicate he would lose games we won earlier in his career.

I repeat he NEVER EVER won a playoff game allowing 30 points going back to his rookie season.

THE LAST TIME THE STEELERS ALLOWED LESS THAN 30 WAS OUR LAST PLAYOFF WIN.

DEFENSE IS ABSOLUTELY the difference in post season wins and losses throughout Bens career.

I absolutely believe that the D was much better early in Ben's career. I think you need to be good to great on both sides of the ball to win a SB.

But the elite D's they put on the field (LeBeau talks about having 3 DPOYs even though he only had 2 because Farrior finished 2nd one year), meant they didn't need gaudy stats. We also used the run game to eat up clock then too.

I think we're talking about different things.

You're talking about stats. Things that make guys like Watson, Herbert, or Cousins look good on paper.

But I'm talking about magic. Things that make Ben (and Mahomes) special. Just the ability to do what seems like it should be impossible. That's what everyone will remember about Ben. Not that time he threw for 5000+ yards and 34 TDs on 675 attempts.

And while Ben threw for lots of yards before the injury, he had mostly lost his super power.

He was still good. Maybe even very good.

But he wasn't the "special" player he was when he was young and could extend the play until the D broke down. Seemingly at will.

And I know that you posted %age stats, but a bit part of why the raw stats look so good just before the injury is that he threw something like 2.5x times the number of passes that he did when he won his first SB.

And Ben was a high variance player. Having him throw that much ended up being a strategy that wasn't successful against good to very good defenses.

[Northern_Blitz]

That is impossible to quantify because he has been hurt in the pocket as well and you also don't know how many injuries he may have avoided by being mobile.

We don't have the counter factual.

But we do know that he rushes around 10 times per game and that he's missed almost 1/3 of each of the last two seasons.

We'll see what happens next season.

But I think it seems likely that his body will break down faster than a QB that doesn't run as much. Just like everyone assumed would happen to Ben (despite his massiveness). And probably Allen too (who averages closer to 6 attempts per game...but had 7+ per game last season).

[Northern_Blitz]

Ya the only way I buy the too many hits argument is if the QB is running in between the tackles and taking on defenders. Most of the time when a mobile QB runs it is him escaping the pocket and once a guy like Jackson is in the open field there is a slim chance someone is squaring him up for a big hit. Most QB's in the league now are mobile, teams are moving away from the statue QB's.

I think this is because (1) the NCAA doesn't give them good pocket passers, (2) pocket passers can get absolutely blown up by edge rushers, and (3) it's way easier to scout for athleticism than it is for QB ability*.

* I know not everyone on here follows the NHL, but this is the reason that all the highest drafted D-men in the NHL are always smaller faster guys. It's way easier in hockey to identify offensive skill than defensive skill. Especially since they haven't even finished growing when they get drafted.

[feltdizz]

You keep bringing up Jimmy G. the most-injured QB in recent NFL history as your comparison, way to go. That's really sound evidence. ROTMFFLMMFAO.

How is a non mobile QB the most injured of all QB’s lately?

Seems like you ate finally catching onto what I’m serving

but I also brought up Tua, Tannehill, Teddy B, Purdy, etc..

None of these QB’s are “run first” but they all missed games.

and why isn’t anyone talking about Daniel Jones and his risk of injury? 120 rushing attempts, 700 yards last year.

[feltdizz]

I think this is because (1) the NCAA doesn't give them good pocket passers, (2) pocket passers can get absolutely blown up by edge rushers, and (3) it's way easier to scout for athleticism than it is for QB ability*.

* I know not everyone on here follows the NHL, but this is the reason that all the highest drafted D-men in the NHL are always smaller faster guys. It's way easier in hockey to identify offensive skill than defensive skill. Especially since they haven't even finished growing when they get drafted.

Russell Wilson is the answer. He showed what a mobile QB with a decent arm could be if you embraced his style of play instead of forcing him to be a pure pocket passer.

Seattle embraced the RPO and had success with it.

Now what was just a college thing has finally come to the pros and GM’s kept getting burned by the big QB with the Big arm who were stiffs.