Tomlin just...

[hackjam]

Yeah I guess that one was not great. Earl Holmes kind of saves that draft plus Emmons and Roye were decent players.

[Northern_Blitz]

I think the Cowher era Steelers' record in the draft is much stronger for whatever that's worth. There isn't really a bad year.

Without going through the picks, I think part of this was that it was easier for us to find tweener OLBs because we were one of the few teams looking for them.

And it feels like maybe players were given more time to develop in the 90s than they do now. I wonder if the average age of NFL players has been decreasing over time? That vets could maybe stick around longer when the game wasn't as fast as it is now?

[feltdizz]

Without going through the picks, I think part of this was that it was easier for us to find tweener OLBs because we were one of the few teams looking for them.

And it feels like maybe players were given more time to develop in the 90s than they do now. I wonder if the average age of NFL players has been decreasing over time? That vets could maybe stick around longer when the game wasn't as fast as it is now?

not sure if its true but I read somewhere that in 2001 we were the ONLY team running a 3-4. We finished with the number 1 defense. Then everyone else jumped on board.. lol.

[feltdizz]

Well, to Cowher's credit the '01-'06 teams were "his" (and Colbert's and of course the organization as a whole) and the core guys from that era continued to be the core through about 2011 or 2012.

The actual criticism would be that Tomlin couldn't rebuild a roster to the level that he had when he started. There are of course a lot of factors at play there but the core of the team that had the second best decade in team history was built by Cowher and Colbert.

I always thought Tomlin's 2012 and 2013 seasons were quite similar to Cowher's 1998 - 2000 seasons in the sense that they were transitional phases from one era to the next that involved a great deal of roster turnover. When you compare the records, especially in the playoffs, coming out of those stretches it's not even close.

Now to build upon a point from earlier on this post, these are organizational things. IMO It's more of an indication of how the organization is operating as a whole and where they are in their lifecycle than a hard indicator of whether one coach is better than another. Of course the head coach is a part of that but it's scouting, it's player development, it's utilization of draft capital; there are a lot of variables that are probably not appreciated nearly enough.

I think part of the success that followed the 90’s was having a few down years.

One “problem” is Tomlin has always had a franchise QB eating into the cap space.. and a franchise QB also helps keep you from a 6-10 season.

I’m curious to see how Tomlin and Colbert will do once they have more freedom with cap space.

Granted.. being “handcuffed” to a Hofer isn’t a bad thing. But it does make it harder to acquire talent.

The other point is the game has changed a ton. We used to be known for being a physical defense that would knock QB’s out. Now we can’t even tackle a QB without a flag. Its much harder to intimidate and smash teams when you have to play flag football.

[BURGH86STEEL]

not sure if its true but I read somewhere that in 2001 we were the ONLY team running a 3-4. We finished with the number 1 defense. Then everyone else jumped on board.. lol.

During the 90's the Steelers were a handful of teams that ran the 3-4 scheme. As a result, the Steelers were able to draft quality players in the later rounds that didn't fit the 4-3 scheme. This was probably prior to the multiple sub packages that defenses run today.

Not every team runs a 3-4 today. It seems that almost every team runs various forms of sub packages.

[crushedspirit]

Well, to Cowher's credit the '01-'06 teams were "his" (and Colbert's and of course the organization as a whole) and the core guys from that era continued to be the core through about 2011 or 2012.

The actual criticism would be that Tomlin couldn't rebuild a roster to the level that he had when he started. There are of course a lot of factors at play there but the core of the team that had the second best decade in team history was built by Cowher and Colbert.

I always thought Tomlin's 2012 and 2013 seasons were quite similar to Cowher's 1998 - 2000 seasons in the sense that they were transitional phases from one era to the next that involved a great deal of roster turnover. When you compare the records, especially in the playoffs, coming out of those stretches it's not even close.

Now to build upon a point from earlier on this post, these are organizational things. IMO It's more of an indication of how the organization is operating as a whole and where they are in their lifecycle than a hard indicator of whether one coach is better than another. Of course the head coach is a part of that but it's scouting, it's player development, it's utilization of draft capital; there are a lot of variables that are probably not appreciated nearly enough.

Good post. I have watched both these coaches from the start, and Cowher gets the nod IMHO. He went 5-1 with the HOF QB in the season that matters the most, (playoffs), compared to 8-8. He also went to 2 AFCCG with Korky, LOL. Tomlin is a good coach, so it's not a shot against him.

[NorthCoast]

Well, to Cowher's credit the '01-'06 teams were "his" (and Colbert's and of course the organization as a whole) and the core guys from that era continued to be the core through about 2011 or 2012.

The actual criticism would be that Tomlin couldn't rebuild a roster to the level that he had when he started. There are of course a lot of factors at play there but the core of the team that had the second best decade in team history was built by Cowher and Colbert.

I always thought Tomlin's 2012 and 2013 seasons were quite similar to Cowher's 1998 - 2000 seasons in the sense that they were transitional phases from one era to the next that involved a great deal of roster turnover. When you compare the records, especially in the playoffs, coming out of those stretches it's not even close.

Now to build upon a point from earlier on this post, these are organizational things. IMO It's more of an indication of how the organization is operating as a whole and where they are in their lifecycle than a hard indicator of whether one coach is better than another. Of course the head coach is a part of that but it's scouting, it's player development, it's utilization of draft capital; there are a lot of variables that are probably not appreciated nearly enough.

There is a post somewhere that basically showed Steelers average draft position under Tomlin was somewhere around 5 or 6 spots worse than under Cowher, so the level of talent available to Cowhere was presumably better.

[Steel Maniac]

Thanks for admitting that you were incorrect! I appreciate and respect your honesty.

I wonder how many coaches that are terrible in the playoffs have been to two SBs and won one? Note: I don't actually wonder this because I've looked it up and posted it.

This list is very short if you only look at guys in the salary cap era.

I get it if as a Steelers fan, you are confused about the definition of the word "terrible". Because these babies are pretty sweet.



Sadly, I also think that we'll cross the 5 year mark without winning a playoff game.

I won't be surprised if we miss the playoffs in a tight AFC. This was my prediction at the beginning of the season.

And if we make the playoffs, I don't think it will be as a division champ.

And I don't think we're good enough right now to have much confidence that we'd beat a highly seeded team in the AFC...but we did already beat the Bills, so maybe things fall just right.

NB....

The point is....it's an 11 year period; he's had a number of teams that were good to great. And can't get the job done. No cherry picking....11 straight years. On a scale of good to great ( from 1 to 10..5 teams favored to represent the AFC in the super bowl ), Tomlin has had those type of teams over the 11 years . And can't get the job done. And ridiculously outcoached the last two playoff appearance with his teams not prepared to play.

An 11 year period...keep that in mind. It's not like he's being criticized for a season or two.

[NorthCoast]

NB....

The point is....it's an 11 year period; he's had a number of teams that were good to great. And can't get the job done. No cherry picking....11 straight years. On a scale of good to great ( from 1 to 10..5 teams favored to represent the AFC in the super bowl ), Tomlin has had those type of teams over the 11 years . And can't get the job done. And ridiculously outcoached the last two playoff appearance with his teams not prepared to play.

An 11 year period...keep that in mind. It's not like he's being criticized for a season or two.

How does a lousy coach have "consistently good to great teams" over an 11 year period?? He's got players from the same pool as all other 31 teams. What other coach puts consistently good to great teams on the field for over 11 years? How many playoffs has the QB been 'good to great' in the post season?

[Steel Maniac]

How does a lousy coach have "consistently good to great teams" over an 11 year period?? He's got players from the same pool as all other 31 teams. What other coach puts consistently good to great teams on the field for over 11 years? How many playoffs has the QB been 'good to great' in the post season?

NC..

You are a prime example of what I’m talking about. Did I say he was lousy? No. I said in a previous post he does a grade “ B” job in the regular season. This is why I don’t have these discussions. Men getting all emotional like it’s someone talking about their relatives. Gzzzz.

[BURGH86STEEL]

NB....

The point is....it's an 11 year period; he's had a number of teams that were good to great. And can't get the job done. No cherry picking....11 straight years. On a scale of good to great ( from 1 to 10..5 teams favored to represent the AFC in the super bowl ), Tomlin has had those type of teams over the 11 years . And can't get the job done. And ridiculously outcoached the last two playoff appearance with his teams not prepared to play.

An 11 year period...keep that in mind. It's not like he's being criticized for a season or two.

The problem is your expectations are to high. The Steelers went 25 years between championship wins (1980 to 2005) Stop acting like championship wins are all that matters. The standard is winning consistently.

The job isn't simply about winning championships from a head coaching perspective. Especially when weighing ALL the factors. Tomlin showed the ability to coach at a high level on a consistent basis. The signs remain there this season. I can't help you if you can't see this.

Every coach in the league today would fail to live up to your standards if all you can recognize is championships.

[Steel Maniac]

The problem is your expectations are to high. The Steelers went 25 years between championship wins (1980 to 2005) Stop acting like championship wins are all that matters. The standard is winning consistently.

The job isn't simply about winning championships from a head coaching perspective. Especially when weighing ALL the factors. Tomlin showed the ability to coach at a high level on a consistent basis. The signs remain there this season. I can't help you if you can't see this.

Every coach in the league today would fail to live up to your standards if all you can recognize is championships.

Another post example of someone emotional exaggeration of what I said. This is why there is no dialog

[BURGH86STEEL]

Another post example of someone emotional exaggeration of what I said. This is why there is no dialog

So what does, "can't get the job done" mean or suggest?

[feltdizz]

Another post example of someone emotional exaggeration of what I said. This is why there is no dialog

his post seemed tame and rational

I think you are an extremist who sees everything at 0 or 100.

[hawaiiansteel]

This is why I don’t have these discussions.

for someone who said awhile ago you weren't going to talk about Mike Tomlin anymore, you sure post about him a lot.

and all you ever do is repeat yourself over and over and over and over and over again. blah blah blah Tomlin blah blah blah...