Deserves its Own Thread: Roethlisberger

[Captain Lemming]

How many playoff games did Ben win in the same time period?

And is the QB more important than the HC?

And if the HC is more important than the players, why does it matter if he won a SB with players drafted when another coach was there?

This is some pretty unassailable logic.

[Northern_Blitz]

This is some pretty unassailable logic.

Only for people that expect consistency in their arguments.

That's why many of us say that Ben is more responsible for the Lombardi he won under Tomlin. And that he's more responsible for the losses in the playoffs too.

[Captain Lemming]

Only for people that expect consistency in their arguments.

That's why many of us say that Ben is more responsible for the Lombardi he won under Tomlin. And that he's more responsible for the losses in the playoffs too.

To further your point:

In the last 25 years there have been 4 QBs who have been to at least 3 SBs. Warner, Ben, Peyton, and Brady.

All 4 have been there with more than one coach. 3 of the 4 won with more than one coach.

During that same span, no coach has won a SB with multiple QBs.

Case closed.

[feltdizz]

I agree.

Vs some of his contemporaries (other guys who are / will be / could be? in the HoF that played in a similar era):

Player	Ints/Playoff Game	INT%
Ben	1.27	3.8
Brady	0.86	2.2
Rogers	0.62	1.7
Brees	0.83	2.1
Eli	0.75	2.3
Rivers	0.83	2.5
Warner	1.07	3.0

Granted, I am always hesitant to cherry pick playoff games over the entire body of work. But Ben's INT% does go up a lot in the playoffs. I had a post on this sometime in the off season. I believe that post showed Ben has the biggest increase in INT% in the playoffs of just anyone as good as he is in the era he's played in (Favre is similar).

This won't convince anyone (because we've looked at this before many times), but part of the reason we've struggled in playoff games when we didn't have a dominant defense is that we turn the ball over more than other teams in the playoffs (2.5% reg to 3.8% playoffs).

And before someone asks, I also included his INT% (INTs/ATTs). It's the highest of the bunch, so his higher INT/game isn't driven by increased attempts.

As everyone has always said, Ben is most comparable to Favre who has similar numbers (int/game: 1.25, INT% 3.8%).

We live by the sword and die by the sword with Ben. So many amazing moments "what the hell are you...oh....oh...TD! What an amazing play!!! He's the best ever!!!!!"

This is just the downside. He doesn't have the elite ability to extend the play anymore.

I think he's the most entertaining QB I've ever watched. And I'm all but positive he'll be the best Steelers QB I'll ever get to see play. But turnovers (especially ones that go for TDs) can be disastrous in single elimination tournaments.

this is the unfortunate reality.

I think its also why we are winning with ball control offense right now.

When you don’t turn the ball over the chances for a W go up immensely.

[Northern_Blitz]

To further your point:

In the last 25 years there have been 4 QBs who have been to at least 3 SBs. Warner, Ben, Peyton, and Brady.

All 4 have been there with more than one coach. 3 of the 4 won with more than one coach.

During that same span, no coach has won a SB with multiple QBs.

Case closed.

Turns out it hard to go to and / or win lots of Superbowls.

I will forever feel bad for Marv Levee and Jim Kelly.

[NorthCoast]

My guess is that this is mostly who played more playoff games.

But I think our int rate in the playoffs isn't good either.

Since you badgered me into it.... (a selected few):

QB	Avg. INTs/playoff gm played
A Rodgers	0.63
D Brees	0.83
P Rivers	0.83
T Brady	0.88
B Favre	1.30
B Roethlisberger	1.35

So a big leap from the elite passers to the gunslingers. I charted yr to yr but it's too much of an eye chart to follow and didn't seem to change all that much with QB age.

[Northern_Blitz]

Since you badgered me into it.... (a selected few):

QB	Avg. INTs/playoff gm played
A Rodgers	0.63
D Brees	0.83
P Rivers	0.83
T Brady	0.88
B Favre	1.30
B Roethlisberger	1.35

So a big leap from the elite passers to the gunslingers. I charted yr to yr but it's too much of an eye chart to follow and didn't seem to change all that much with QB age.

Interesting that we got slightly different numbers.

Same trends though.

Of the great QBs of this generation, Ben has the hardest time not turning it over.

That has led to some amazing moments (no sane QB throws that beautiful ball to Holmes in triple coverage on 2nd down), but also to games like the Browns.

He is what he is. And I'm happy that I got to see his whole career in real time (vs. 70s game that I've only seen via NFL films / highlights)

[feltdizz]

Interesting that we got slightly different numbers.

Same trends though.

Of the great QBs of this generation, Ben has the hardest time not turning it over.

That has led to some amazing moments (no sane QB throws that beautiful ball to Holmes in triple coverage on 2nd down), but also to games like the Browns.

He is what he is. And I'm happy that I got to see his whole career in real time (vs. 70s game that I've only seen via NFL films / highlights)

yep… but some people see those INT’s as Ben trying to “overcome” bad coaching.

The reality is Ben has 2 personalities.

Big Ben and Ugly Ben.

Ugly Ben needs a defense to be amazing to keep our postseasons alive when he shows up.

When we protect the ball good things tend to happen in the postseason.

Would love to know how many games we lost when Ben hasn’t turned the ball over.

Granted.. other players have also turned the ball over so this isn’t solely on Ben. Thinking back to both Denver losses when 2 third string RB’s coughed it up.

[NorthCoast]

I agree.

Vs some of his contemporaries (other guys who are / will be / could be? in the HoF that played in a similar era):

Player	Ints/Playoff Game	INT%
Ben	1.27	3.8
Brady	0.86	2.2
Rogers	0.62	1.7
Brees	0.83	2.1
Eli	0.75	2.3
Rivers	0.83	2.5
Warner	1.07	3.0

Granted, I am always hesitant to cherry pick playoff games over the entire body of work. But Ben's INT% does go up a lot in the playoffs. I had a post on this sometime in the off season. I believe that post showed Ben has the biggest increase in INT% in the playoffs of just anyone as good as he is in the era he's played in (Favre is similar).

This won't convince anyone (because we've looked at this before many times), but part of the reason we've struggled in playoff games when we didn't have a dominant defense is that we turn the ball over more than other teams in the playoffs (2.5% reg to 3.8% playoffs).

And before someone asks, I also included his INT% (INTs/ATTs). It's the highest of the bunch, so his higher INT/game isn't driven by increased attempts.

As everyone has always said, Ben is most comparable to Favre who has similar numbers (int/game: 1.25, INT% 3.8%).

We live by the sword and die by the sword with Ben. So many amazing moments "what the hell are you...oh....oh...TD! What an amazing play!!! He's the best ever!!!!!"

This is just the downside. He doesn't have the elite ability to extend the play anymore.

I think he's the most entertaining QB I've ever watched. And I'm all but positive he'll be the best Steelers QB I'll ever get to see play. But turnovers (especially ones that go for TDs) can be disastrous in single elimination tournaments.

Thanks NB... didn't see this before I posted my numbers but they agree. I agree he is most Favre like of any of the modern QBs. It's why one opponent coach said Roethlisberger was the hardest QB he's ever had to gameplan against because he constantly would go off schedule to make plays.

Be interesting to vote on whose highlight reel is better, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger? I'd argue it's Roethlisberger.

[feltdizz]

Thanks NB... didn't see this before I posted my numbers but they agree. I agree he is most Favre like of any of the modern QBs. It's why one opponent coach said Roethlisberger was the hardest QB he's ever had to gameplan against because he constantly would go off schedule to make plays.

Be interesting to vote on whose highlight reel is better, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger? I'd argue it's Roethlisberger.

Brady is a pretty boring QB so its definitely between AR and Ben.

But I also think they would both have more “low lights” as well.

[Northern_Blitz]

Thanks NB... didn't see this before I posted my numbers but they agree. I agree he is most Favre like of any of the modern QBs. It's why one opponent coach said Roethlisberger was the hardest QB he's ever had to gameplan against because he constantly would go off schedule to make plays.

Be interesting to vote on whose highlight reel is better, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger? I'd argue it's Roethlisberger.

100% agree.

Ben has the best highlight reel of these guys no question (although Brady's reel includes lots of hoisting Lombardi's).

He also has the worst lowlight reel.

It's the player he is.

And the ride has been amazing. Even if we didn't reach the same heights as the Pats.

[Captain Lemming]

yep… but some people see those INT’s as Ben trying to “overcome” bad coaching.

The reality is Ben has 2 personalities.

Big Ben and Ugly Ben.

Ugly Ben needs a defense to be amazing to keep our postseasons alive when he shows up.

When we protect the ball good things tend to happen in the postseason.

Reality?
We have ALWAY had a mix of both during playoff runs.

Bad Ben is the only Ben the Jets have faced in the playoffs and we won.

Bad Ben won his first SB.

THE ONLY difference between his second win and being perceived as Bad Ben is a pick six on defense. The same play to Holmes would be a "garbage time" td.

Defense defines how far we go in the playoffs (OK the Browns loss excepted) with Ben.

[feltdizz]

Reality?
We have ALWAY had a mix of both during playoff runs.

Bad Ben is the only Ben the Jets have faced in the playoffs and we won.

Bad Ben won his first SB.

THE ONLY difference between his second win and being perceived as Bad Ben in the second SB is a pick six on defense. The same play to Holmes would be a "garbage time" td.

Defense defines how far we go in the playoffs.

That isn’t how it works tho. You can’t change a gamw winning pass into a garbage time pass based on previous plays.

Teams defend differently in garbage time.

The stakes were high af and Ben stepped up on that last drive. Probably the best TD pass in SB history based on the clock, placement and the toe tap.

["BuzzNuter"]

Reality?
We have ALWAY had a mix of both during playoff runs.

Bad Ben is the only Ben the Jets have faced in the playoffs and we won.

Bad Ben won his first SB.

THE ONLY difference between his second win and being perceived as Bad Ben is a pick six on defense. The same play to Holmes would be a "garbage time" td.

Defense defines how far we go in the playoffs (OK the Browns loss excepted) with Ben.

In his first SB run in the previous 3 games before the SB, Ben had a QB rating of 105 or higher I believe. What about the tackle on Adams in the Colt game? There was no SB XL without Ben.
A garbage time pass to Holmes, dude that was the greatest TD pass in SB history. Ben was the MVP of that game. They started that drive at 2nd and 18 from their own 12.

[Steel Maniac]

In his first SB run in the previous 3 games before the SB, Ben had a QB rating of 105 or higher I believe. What about the tackle on Adams in the Colt game? There was no SB XL without Ben.
A garbage time pass to Holmes, dude that was the greatest TD pass in SB history. Ben was the MVP of that game. They started that drive at 2nd and 18 from their own 12.

preach. preach.