Can we just stop already with the ben debate!

[Steel Maniac]

tomlin is involved heavily in the drafts. he doesn't escape this blame especially with the begging he does to keep drafting for his baby (defense)

Well, Tomlin sits there, but is he really? IF he is, then this too DOES fall on him. But Colbert has built teams before he even knew Tomlin. This mostly falls on him.

[hawaiiansteel]

Not a narrative.

yes, it is.

you repeat your agenda and narrative over and over and over again like the one-trick pony you are.

[NJ-STEELER]

Well, Tomlin sits there, but is he really? IF he is, then this too DOES fall on him. But Colbert has built teams before he even knew Tomlin. This mostly falls on him.

he goes to plenty of pro days. would be tough to say he's not involved in the picking

[whatever]

Our talent was better than the Pats if you:

1. Overvalue backs and recevers (by that standard the Pats should have a losing record).
2. If you undervalue secondary. Our was trash theirs elite
3. If you underestimate the size of the huge gulf between Ben and "GOAT" Brady.

If you actually understood the relative value of different positions, you would see those Brown/Bell teams NEVER built with the RIGHT TALENT.

Championship Pat teams were MUCH better at positions that win championships today.

I am not saying this after the fact as an excuse...I've been saying it FOR YEARS. time and time again I called for us to invest money put into elite "skill"players into the seconday.

And yes Pats coaching WAS better...THAN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE.

I don’t recall you complaining about drafting our skill guys or Paying them huge contracts to keep them.
I don’t remember anyone on this site calling Brady the goat and saying he was much better than Ben at that time.
Seems like polamalu and Taylor were far from trash. Did you call them that?
And once again, we were beaten by lesser teams before the pats could beat us most years.
Fans act like Brady was knocking us out. They weren’t.
Guys like Tebow, mayfield, mono brow and that no name from jax were.

[Northern_Blitz]

I don’t recall you complaining about drafting our skill guys or Paying them huge contracts to keep them.
I don’t remember anyone on this site calling Brady the goat and saying he was much better than Ben at that time.
Seems like polamalu and Taylor were far from trash. Did you call them that?
And once again, we were beaten by lesser teams before the pats could beat us most years.
Fans act like Brady was knocking us out. They weren’t.
Guys like Tebow, mayfield, mono brow and that no name from jax were.

Maybe go and check the Bell thread if you think Lemming wasn't saying big contracts for offensive skill players were mistakes?

Or about his discussions about Gilmore for his opinion on the importance of good secondary over offensive skill players... At least if you have a good QB.

[whatever]

Maybe go and check the Bell thread if you think Lemming wasn't saying big contracts for offensive skill players were mistakes?

Or about his discussions about Gilmore for his opinion on the importance of good secondary over offensive skill players... At least if you have a good QB.

Like I said, I don’t recall if he valued those things.
I’m fairly certain with his username and his pro steelers outlook, he never said Taylor and polamalu sucked and doubt he questioned draft picks, fa signings etc. I don’t remember him saying this team had no chance because it wasn’t build right.
I could be wrong tho.

[NorthCoast]

This might surprise a few people, it did me;

	Roethlisberger	Brady
% passes on target	69%	64%
# passes BLOS	15	16
# passes 0 - 10 yds	33	32
# passes 10 - 20 yds	14	23
# passes > 20 yds	9	10

[whatever]

This might surprise a few people, it did me;

	Roethlisberger	Brady
% passes on target	69%	64%
# passes BLOS	15	16
# passes 0 - 10 yds	33	32
# passes 10 - 20 yds	14	23
# passes > 20 yds	9	10

Interesting stats.
Not sure about Brady but I’m guessing Ben got some of those numbers during garbage time.

[Steel Maniac]

I don’t recall you complaining about drafting our skill guys or Paying them huge contracts to keep them.
I don’t remember anyone on this site calling Brady the goat and saying he was much better than Ben at that time.
Seems like polamalu and Taylor were far from trash. Did you call them that?
And once again, we were beaten by lesser teams before the pats could beat us most years.
Fans act like Brady was knocking us out. They weren’t.
Guys like Tebow, mayfield, mono brow and that no name from jax were.

Whatever, Lemming fought Feltdizz in several threads about not wanting to give Bell that contract. Lemming doesn’t believe in big contracts to any skill position other than QB.

His argument has always been look at the teams winning recent Super Bowls and how their constructed.

With draw your talons. Lol. Lemmings isn’t one of those.

[feltdizz]

Whatever, Lemming fought Feltdizz in several threads about not wanting to give Bell that contract. Lemming doesn’t believe in big contracts to any skill position other than QB.

His argument has always been look at the teams winning recent Super Bowls and how their constructed.

With draw your talons. Lol. Lemmings isn’t one of those.

Cherry picking SB winners after the fact is lame.

Anyone can do it.

How about predicting a SB winner that doesn’t have Tom Brady.

Not sure what Whatever is obsessing over though.. Cap has always been against paying RB’s and WR’s.

but his “check out the SB winner” argument doesn’t really hold up because there are teams who have paid big bucks for a CB and missed the playoffs.

No team wins a SB by simply drafting or acquiring a CB. We acquired Haden and Fitz and it hasn’t paid off yet. We have seen splashes but a DB or 2 will not get you closer to a SB if you have sub oar QB play or a sub par running game.

He also predicted JuJu would be fine without AB and he has struggled without him.

[Northern_Blitz]

This might surprise a few people, it did me;

	Roethlisberger	Brady
% passes on target	69%	64%
# passes BLOS	15	16
# passes 0 - 10 yds	33	32
# passes 10 - 20 yds	14	23
# passes > 20 yds	9	10

I think this is kind of the genesis of our current offense.

Didn't Switzer say something about how Ben wanted to run an offense like Brady?

[Northern_Blitz]

Cherry picking SB winners after the fact is lame.

Anyone can do it.

How about predicting a SB winner that doesn’t have Tom Brady.

Not sure what Whatever is obsessing over though.. Cap has always been against paying RB’s and WR’s.

but his “check out the SB winner” argument doesn’t really hold up because there are teams who have paid big bucks for a CB and missed the playoffs.

No team wins a SB by simply drafting or acquiring a CB. We acquired Haden and Fitz and it hasn’t paid off yet. We have seen splashes but a DB or 2 will not get you closer to a SB if you have sub oar QB play or a sub par running game.

He also predicted JuJu would be fine without AB and he has struggled without him.

I'm looking for a good young QB that was still on a cheap contract.

I don't think it took a rocket scientist (e.g. Dobbs) to predict that Mahomes had a great chance to win a SB.

[feltdizz]

I'm looking for a good young QB that was still on a cheap contract.

I don't think it took a rocket scientist (e.g. Dobbs) to predict that Mahomes had a great chance to win a SB.

indeed.. and they have a defense that was all world. They just score in bunches like a basketball team.

[Captain Lemming]

Cherry picking SB winners after the fact is lame.

Anyone can do it.

How about predicting a SB winner that doesn’t have Tom Brady.

Not sure what Whatever is obsessing over though.. Cap has always been against paying RB’s and WR’s.

but his “check out the SB winner” argument doesn’t really hold up because there are teams who have paid big bucks for a CB and missed the playoffs.

No team wins a SB by simply drafting or acquiring a CB. We acquired Haden and Fitz and it hasn’t paid off yet. We have seen splashes but a DB or 2 will not get you closer to a SB if you have sub oar QB play or a sub par running game.

He also predicted JuJu would be fine without AB and he has struggled without him.

I have NEVER SAID all you need is secondary.

I said when you have BOTH elite QB AND elite secondary player..,teams win SBs. Does that mean ALL SB teams feature that? No.

But I will AGAIN ask.
What combination of elite secondary player and QB has FAILED to win a SB?

Ben
Brady
Peyton
Brees
Rogers
Wilson
Mahommes

All won SBs with All Pro caliber secondary players. There is a clear, pattern of success.

Try doing that with runningbacks, heck ANY position group. You just dont see that pattern.

[Northern_Blitz]

Like I said, I don’t recall if he valued those things.
I’m fairly certain with his username and his pro steelers outlook, he never said Taylor and polamalu sucked and doubt he questioned draft picks, fa signings etc. I don’t remember him saying this team had no chance because it wasn’t build right.
I could be wrong tho.

I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say here.

Why would he say Taylor and Troy sucked? 1st, that would be incorrect. 2nd, his argument is that having good to great secondary with a good to great QB is a recipe for success.

He questioned the hell out of our attempt to sign Bell. I don't remember if he was also against AB's deal. But we did have a fair amount of leverage at least with his 2nd deal. His 3rd was terrible in retrospect...don't remember what Lemming said about it at the time.

He was on the fence about the Watt contract. Grudgingly accepting maybe?

I don't remember his thoughts on Heyward.

If you mean external UFAs, what big external UFAs have we signed that are worth complaining about? We don't make big external UFA signings because I think we believe their success rate is lower than big internal signings.

Finally, anyone saying that there is "no chance" for anything is being hyperbolic. I think we were talking less about salary cap make up at the time, but I'm sure if Lemming looked at the cap distribution of the Jags team he'd say something like "that's dumb, spend less on the O (~63% of the cap) and more on the D (about 36% of the cap). Maybe he even did that.

This is what a lot of the Tomlin debate is about. Lots of people blame Tomlin for everything. But the reality is that it has been very difficult for any team to be consistently competitive with a QB that's making market value. I guess the counter-example is Brady...but he's never really charged market rate. And the difference between his cap hit and the highest QB cap hit is often a very good player in the secondary (i.e. it would have been hard for the Pats to afford Gilmore if Brady took what he was worth).