A Positive View of they Draft

[Northern_Blitz]

I totally agree with you. That's why Whatever said you can't expect us only being good on defense by having 1 & 2 rounders at every position on defense.You have to have good coaching at the head coaching position but good assistant coaches as well to have good schemes to cover for areas of weakness on defense.

Josh Mcdaniels is arguably the best OC in football. He's proven it by how he had Matt Cassell come and win 10 games when Brady got hurt. Not to mention how Mcdaniels morps the offense from week to week based on the opponent they face. Bellichek wouldn't have been as successful without him. Proof that good assistants are essential.

We need to look at our assistant coaches ( OC & DC) and gauge if they are up to snuff. Jury is still out on that.

Let's watch McD away from TB and BB before anointing him.

You also wanted to anoint McVay before he had a track record. He also seems to be more reliant on having lots of cap room because of an underpaid QB.

Butler looked like a bad DC when he had little talent in the secondary. But he was getting insane sack numbers. Then we dramatically improved 50% of the secondary with an elite safety and what looks like a pretty good corner. Suddenly, he looks like a good DC.

It's not clear how much the coaching changed (we added a secondary assistant too), but we know that the talent got much better.

[Northern_Blitz]

It does matter. Until we got our defense loaded with top rounded picks, it didn't click. And Nelson was there before Minka. And it didn't click. It clicked finally, when Minka was inserted in the lineup as a starter. Those are the facts.

So now you're arguing that it's the addition of talent that made the D click?

I'm confused...

[Ernie]

No doubt there were a few high picks on D that didn't pan out (for whatever reason... lack of performance, injuries, etc etc.)...
Jarvis Jones, Artie Burns, Sean Davis, Senquez Golsen...etc. We also have to account for the Shazier injury... in terms of investing a 1st round pick...and only getting a few years of production for the investment.

[Mr.wizard]

So now you're arguing that it's the addition of talent that made the D click?

I'm confused...

I dont think he even knows what he is arguing anymore.

[Northern_Blitz]

No doubt there were a few high picks on D that didn't pan out (for whatever reason... lack of performance, injuries, etc etc.)...
Jarvis Jones, Artie Burns, Sean Davis, Senquez Golsen...etc. We also have to account for the Shazier injury... in terms of investing a 1st round pick...and only getting a few years of production for the investment.

The "lots of 1st round picks" also includes several cast off from other teams who busted on the team they were drafted on or were old enough that their original team gave up on them.

[Northern_Blitz]

Steeler fans do have expectations. Are they unrealistic? No. Because we are talking about an 9-11 year period. We've been patient. If we were only comparing to a 4-5 year period, then maybe you'd have grounds. Please look at my signature for our playoff success over the last nine years.

You can't compare our expectations to the Falcons, Browns, Buccaneers. We have higher expectations. What your saying is that if we look at dreg organizations, we should feel good about ourselves. I don't feel good
about wasting the last nine years of Ben's career.

Comparing us to dregs does not justify us wasting the last 9 years.

I looked at the organization YOU pointed to as one that was successful with a QB off their rookie deal.

[Mr.wizard]

Steelers have been face planting after winning the division for the most part the last nine years. You can't keep comparing what we do to organazations that have never won anything and tell us to beat our chest. Then when it's time to compare us to one of the few organizations in our stratosphere, the Patriots, you say we can't. Their the acception.

The Atlanta Falcons, Tampa Bay Buccaneers and 3/4 of the league are not in our stratosphere as far as winning championships. I will never compare us to them. I compare us to the benchmark. I don't run from it .

And the excuse that we can't get to the Super Bowl because we don't have a rookie contract on our QB is bogus. That's been the excuse the last nine years? Nope. No one is buying that. Or we need to trade every QB we get going forward after their first 4 years here. Chiefs won't be making that excuse after Mahomes gets his 40 mil a year deal.

*** And Matt Ryan..bad example. Here's a better one..Russell Wilson/A. Rodgers. Both are constantly in the playoffs so let's not use the " Gotta be on a rookie contract for us to win a super bowl" stuff. That's some "quit/give up" excuse. Terrible rationalization of why we've face planted for the most of the last 9 years. Wow.

Point to where he said you must have a QB on a rookie deal to win a Superbowl.

[Mr.wizard]

Steeler fans do have expectations. Are they unrealistic? No. Because we are talking about an 9-11 year period. We've been patient. If we were only comparing to a 4-5 year period, then maybe you'd have grounds. Please look at my signature for our playoff success over the last nine years.

You can't compare our expectations to the Falcons, Browns, Buccaneers. We have higher expectations. What your saying is that if we look at dreg organizations, we should feel good about ourselves. I don't feel good
about wasting the last nine years of Ben's career.

Comparing us to dregs does not justify us wasting the last 9 years.

You are the one who brought up Matt Ryan and the Falcons to try and make your point and when we showed you that it actually didn't make your point, you tell us we can't use the Falcons?

[Northern_Blitz]

Steelers have been face planting after winning the division for the most part the last nine years. You can't keep comparing what we do to organazations that have never won anything and tell us to beat our chest. Then when it's time to compare us to one of the few organizations in our stratosphere, the Patriots, you say we can't. Their the acception.

The Atlanta Falcons, Tampa Bay Buccaneers and 3/4 of the league are not in our stratosphere as far as winning championships. I will never compare us to them. I compare us to the benchmark. I don't run from it .

And the excuse that we can't get to the Super Bowl because we don't have a rookie contract on our QB is bogus. That's been the excuse the last nine years? Nope. No one is buying that. Or we need to trade every QB we get going forward after their first 4 years here. Chiefs won't be making that excuse after Mahomes gets his 40 mil a year deal.

*** And Matt Ryan..bad example. Here's a better one..Russell Wilson/A. Rodgers. Both are constantly in the playoffs so let's not use the " Gotta be on a rookie contract for us to win a super bowl" stuff. That's some "quit/give up" excuse. Terrible rationalization of why we've face planted for the most of the last 9 years. Wow.

The Seahawks have won 2 playoff games since Wilson signed his 2nd contract. No NFCC games. In those same years, the Steelers have also won 2 playoff games and been to an AFCC. Same wins, but a deeper playoff run.

Rogers is a good example for your point. He, Ben and P.Manning may be the only QBs I can think of who have had consistent success playing on market level deals (although AR's 2010 deal may have been below market because he only had 2 years as a starter at that point).

But GB is a lot like us in terms of their success. After the SB we were both in, they had a stretch of 5 years with consistent playoff appearances, but only 3 wins. Then they won 2 in 2016 and 1 in 2019. Since that SB, they are 6 / 13 and we are 5 / 11.

I'd say GB has done better than us since the SB we played together, but not by a landslide. GB is also one of the teams that has done better than us in the regular season. They are one of the two or three teams that I think could be considered to be better than us since we drafted Ben. Mostly because they got lucky and chained together two great QBs.

[Starlifter]

Let's watch McD away from TB and BB before anointing him.

You also wanted to anoint McVay before he had a track record. He also seems to be more reliant on having lots of cap room because of an underpaid QB.

Butler looked like a bad DC when he had little talent in the secondary. But he was getting insane sack numbers. Then we dramatically improved 50% of the secondary with an elite safety and what looks like a pretty good corner. Suddenly, he looks like a good DC.

It's not clear how much the coaching changed (we added a secondary assistant too), but we know that the talent got much better.

while there's no hard and fast rule - I tend to think great talent on the field can mask poor coaching, just like great coaching can mask poor talent. The O-line was an underperforming unit until Munchak came on board. Yes, we plugged in some quality players like DeCastro - but I don't think anyone views his development of the line as anything less than stellar. It's hard to know just how effective coaches can or can't be, particularly when they have talented players. Sometimes it takes a large body of work to figure it out. I think Butler is an average DC. looks awful with bad talent, looks great with pro-bowlers. A great coach is someone that can look good with bad players. I don't think that's Butler. To be fair, there aren't many who could - that's what makes them great.

This is just a guess on my part - but I think Josh McDaniels is going to cement his value as a very good OC this season and potential HC. I believe he is innovative and the one thing no one disputes about BB is his attention to detail. McDaniels has learned that. If NE wins the East again, I don't know how anyone could dispute his effectiveness. Although in point of disclosure I have said here in the past after an 8-8 non losing season - my fantasy team would have Josh M as head coach/OC with Rex Ryan as DC. I think Rex is a poor HC, but maybe because no matter how hard I've tried to understand his book and failed, I think he's pretty smart on defense. I also like his swagger on that side of the field.

But these arguments are largely 'chicken or the egg'. No way to really prove anything - just opinions.

[Mr.wizard]

Also the last 9 years hasn't been wasted for Ben, Ben has had plenty of opportunities, winning seasons, and playoff appearances to get the job done.

[Northern_Blitz]

while there's no hard and fast rule - I tend to think great talent on the field can mask poor coaching, just like great coaching can mask poor talent. The O-line was an underperforming unit until Munchak came on board. Yes, we plugged in some quality players like DeCastro - but I don't think anyone views his development of the line as anything less than stellar. It's hard to know just how effective coaches can or can't be, particularly when they have talented players. Sometimes it takes a large body of work to figure it out. I think Butler is an average DC. looks awful with bad talent, looks great with pro-bowlers. A great coach is someone that can look good with bad players. I don't think that's Butler. To be fair, there aren't many who could - that's what makes them great.

This is just a guess on my part - but I think Josh McDaniels is going to cement his value as a very good OC this season and potential HC. I believe he is innovative and the one thing no one disputes about BB is his attention to detail. McDaniels has learned that. If NE wins the East again, I don't know how anyone could dispute his effectiveness. Although in point of disclosure I have said here in the past after an 8-8 non losing season - my fantasy team would have Josh M as head coach/OC with Rex Ryan as DC. I think Rex is a poor HC, but maybe because no matter how hard I've tried to understand his book and failed, I think he's pretty smart on defense. I also like his swagger on that side of the field.

But these arguments are largely 'chicken or the egg'. No way to really prove anything - just opinions.

I think you are right that it can work both ways.

But i think it's much more likely to work with talent overcoming coaching than the other way around. I think BB is the only head coach to consistently go the other way... And maybe that's because he had the GOAT QB playing significantly below market value.

I think it's also hard to evaluate them separately sometimes. Was Butler bad at designing secondary play 2 years ago, or was the problem that we dropped more INTs than any other team in the league?

I also think the skill set for being a good HC isn't the same for being a good OC /DC. But I may be biased based on how the Steelers have had a ton of success looking for leaders that can work with good coordinators instead of X/O guys (who I tend to think have less humility)

[feltdizz]

Very entertaining thread. Some good points being made.

money that stands out or didn’t get a lot of discussion was Matt Ryan’s rookie deal.

6 years.. $70 mill, with $35 mill guaranteed.

He had the old school rookie deal that wasn’t cap friendly like these new deals.

that being said. I think we have gone over this before. All the “success”
of other teams besides NE are usually inflated due to not being emotionally attached to those teams.

Teams like Seattle, NO and GB may have 1 or 2 more playoff wins but they aren’t winning SB’s.

What is often considered success (making playoffs and then losing) is labeled as failure when we do it.

I think last season proved our coaches are pretty good because everyone said we had no shot if Ben went down and we were one win away from the playoffs with a 4th stringer in Duck and Rudolph at QB.

[Northern_Blitz]

Very entertaining thread. Some good points being made.

money that stands out or didn’t get a lot of discussion was Matt Ryan’s rookie deal.

6 years.. $70 mill, with $35 mill guaranteed.

He had the old school rookie deal that wasn’t cap friendly like these new deals.

that being said. I think we have gone over this before. All the “success”
of other teams besides NE are usually inflated due to not being emotionally attached to those teams.

Teams like Seattle, NO and GB may have 1 or 2 more playoff wins but they aren’t winning SB’s.

What is often considered success (making playoffs and then losing) is labeled as failure when we do it.

I think last season proved our coaches are pretty good because everyone said we had no shot if Ben went down and we were one win away from the playoffs with a 4th stringer in Duck and Rudolph at QB.

I think rookie QBs were probably still underpaid then, but I agree that the advantage is much bigger now.

I also agree that we're beating a dead horse. I'm not good at restraint.

[hawaiiansteel]

So now you're arguing that it's the addition of talent that made the D click?

I'm confused...

coaching is more important than talent.

unless talent is more important than coaching, of course.

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