The Ruthless Plan 1.0

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  • RuthlessBurgher
    Legend
    • May 2008
    • 33208

    The Ruthless Plan 1.0

    Okay, now we know the plans are to try to trade AB. While I'd like to be able to use him as ammunition to be able to move up from #20 into the top 10 to get LSU LB Devin White, that's pretty much a pipe dream at this point. Since AB seems to be sabotaging his value on Twitter these days, I would be happy if we were able to get an early second round pick for him (say the Niners' pick at #36 overall).

    We also learned this week that the team will not be using any tags on Le'Veon Bell, so he's free to sign anywhere, and the maximum compensation we could possibly get for him would be a 2020 third round comp pick. However, if we are aggressive in free agency and use our cap space to add a big money defender on day one, we would essentially be cancelling out the possible 3rd round comp for Bell next year (that's why I suggested pursuing a CB2 like Robert Alford who was recently cut by the Falcons, since players who are released do not count against the free agent comp pick formula...but Arizona already signed him, so that's a moot point now anyway). I'm not thrilled with the quality of the free agent CB's this year anyway, and I expect Baltimore to be able to franchise tag C.J. Mosley after trading away Flacco's contract, so I'm still looking for another way to use our resources to improve on defense.

    Folks here have been mentioning Xavier Rhodes as a possibility recently. I like it. However, the Vikings aren't going to release him and he's not being traded for a mid-round pick. He's been to the Pro Bowl multiple times and was first team All Pro as recently as 2017. That's the kind of guy they might be looking for a first round pick...or maybe multiple second day picks to obtain. I love the idea of being able to team up Rhodes opposite Haden. That would be like having two CB1's, and by far better than anything we've had in our secondary for a long time. Well, what do we have to give in order to make it happen?

    I would offer Minnesota our 2nd round pick this year (52nd overall) and our 3rd round pick in 2020 plus CB Artie Burns in exchange from CB Xavier Rhodes and WR Laquon Treadwell. We can afford to give up our current pick in the latter half of round 2 now if we think we'd be able to obtain a pick in the early portion of round 2 for AB. And we could afford to give up our regular 2020 3rd round pick now if we expect to get a 2020 3rd round comp pick for Bell (and since we'd be spending the majority of our available cap dollars on a big trade rather than a big free agent signing, we wouldn't have to worry about that potential 3rd round comp pick being cancelled out next year).

    Burns and Treadwell both have been disappointing 1st round picks 3 seasons into their NFL careers, so perhaps a change of scenery could do them both some good. Minnesota would be losing their top corner in this deal, but adding Burns could replenish some of their depth behind remaining CB's Trae Waynes, Mike Hughes, and Mackenzie Alexander. Treadwell wasn't getting much playing time with the Vikes behind the likes of Adam Thielen and Stefan Diggs, but in Pittsburgh he could compete with James Washington and possibly a mid-level free agent signing or mid-round draft pick at WR opposite of Juju Smith-Schuster.

    Although he is only 1 year younger than Haden (XR is 28 and JH is 29), Haden has now been in the league for 9 years while Rhodes has been in the league for only 6 years so far, so Rhodes should have more tread on his tires in a relative sense (Haden was relatively young when he was drafted, and Rhodes was comparatively older). Haden is due to have a cap hit of $11.9M in the last year of his deal (I would like to try to also extend Haden's deal for a few more years as well this offseason). Rhodes is signed for 4 more years at similar base salaries to what we've been paying Haden (he's scheduled to make $10.4M in 2019, $9.9M in 2020, $11.15M in 2021, and $13.25M in 2022). The remainder of his prorating signing bonus would be on Minnesota's cap, so we'd only be responsible for those yearly base salaries mentioned above, plus I believe a roster bonus each year of $500K and a workout bonus of $100K, which would only inflate his yearly cap hits to $11M in 2019, $10.5M in 2020, $11.75M in 2021, and $13.85M in 2022). Seems like it would be a better overall allocation of resources to pay a top CB still in the midst of his prime years than a similarly aged RB or WR like Bell or Brown.

    And then...in the draft:

    1.20 Iowa TE T.J. Hockenson

    Potentially one of the best all around TE prospects to come out in the draft since our own Heath Miller. Hockenson worked well in 2TE sets at Iowa with teammate Noah Fant (who might be a 2nd round pick in this draft in his own right), so he should be able to work well with Vance McDonald. We could easily use more 2TE sets this coming year as opposed to the 3+WR we seemed to prefer this past year, and since Hockenson, McDonald, and Juju are all accomplished blockers as well as receivers, we can keep opponents guessing about whether a run or a pass might be coming next rather than telegraphing our play selection based on formation.

    2.36 (from SF for AB) Alabama ILB Mack Wilson

    He's not Ryan Shazier, but no one is. I think he's more of a borderline round 1-2 prospect than a bona fide mid 1st round guy at this point. He is an improvement over the likes of Vince Williams, Jon Bostic, L.J. Fort, and Tyler Matakevich, though. If he does not make it down to #36, though, there could be some other potential options here, such as Devin Bush instead.

    3.83 Michigan OLB Chase Winovich

    An upgrade over Anthony Chickillo who could also push Bud Dupree for playing time as well. And the fact that he grew up in Allegheny County never hurt when our front office is scouting players.

    4. Georgia RB Elijah Holyfield

    A replacement for Stefan Ridley. Didn't get much of a shot for most of his college career because of the presence of guys like Nick Chubb and Sony Michel ahead of him on the depth chart, but this year he was able to showcase his violent running style, which is not surprising considering who his father is (our front office also tends to like guys with strong athletic bloodlines as well).

    6. (from OAK) Utah FS Marquis Blair

    Depth behind Sean Davis. A hard hitter in spite of a small frame...could be something once he gets in a pro weight program and adds some pounds.

    6. Arkansas G Hjalte Froholdt

    Interior OL depth. Comes from Denmark with very little experience playing OL, but seems to have the skill set to turn into something if given the time. I would feel better if it were Mike Munchak shaping this lump of clay into a potential player, but we'll see how much of his magic touch rubbed off on protégé Shaun Sarrett.

    7. (from TB) Arkansas DE Armon Watts

    Depth along the d-line. Only a one year starter in college, but has the frame we tend to look for in our d-linemen and seems to have the functional strength to anchor against double teams and potentially beat single blockers.
    Steeler teams featuring stat-driven, me-first, fantasy-football-darling diva types such as Antonio Brown & Le'Veon Bell won no championships.

    Super Bowl winning Steeler teams were built around a dynamic, in-your-face defense plus blue-collar, hard-hitting, no-nonsense football players on offense such as Hines Ward & Jerome Bettis.

    We don't want Juju & Conner to replace what we lost in Brown & Bell.

    We are counting on Juju & Conner to return us to the glory we once had with Hines & The Bus.
  • steeler_george
    Hall of Famer
    • Dec 2008
    • 3417

    #2
    RUTHLESS I WAS GETTING WOOD READING THIS!

    Is this really possible...having 2 solid CB?



    Especially reading your mock draft...

    I have been Hockenson ever since I realized that White would be long gone... He would add so much to this team and not just the offense. More value than the best WR in draft could offer to us. Like you said, he would bring a more balance base set in the O. We can spread out McDonald or spread out Hockenson, two TE sets gallore mismatches left and right. Imagine his blocking, running downhill football with Conner. We would eat up the clock for ever. Our D would be fresh...

    Add in a cover ILB, a former safety, the weak link in our D should be solved.

    Could we also throw Burnet and Gilbert in a trade to washington for Ha-HA.
    Last edited by steeler_george; 02-21-2019, 05:08 PM. Reason: flow

    Comment

    • steelerkeylargo
      Hall of Famer
      • Mar 2009
      • 2507

      #3
      Solid effort and very plausible. I'd be very happy with all of that!






      Comment

      • SidSmythe
        Hall of Famer
        • Sep 2008
        • 4708

        #4
        Somewhat Realistic but I'm getting more than a 2nd round pick from the Niners - I want their 2nd and their 5th.

        RUTH - lets say the Rhodes trade doesn't come to fruition who is our pick mid 2nd round??
        You can edit and throw it in above with an ***
        Here We Go Steelers, Here We Go...
        Here We Go Steelers, Here We Go...
        Here We Go Steelers, Here We Go...!!!

        Comment

        • RuthlessBurgher
          Legend
          • May 2008
          • 33208

          #5
          Originally posted by SidSmythe
          Somewhat Realistic but I'm getting more than a 2nd round pick from the Niners - I want their 2nd and their 5th.

          RUTH - lets say the Rhodes trade doesn't come to fruition who is our pick mid 2nd round??
          You can edit and throw it in above with an ***
          Probably a corner there, unless we otherwise fill that slot in free agency. I imagine that Baker from Georgia, Murphy from Washington, and Greedy from LSU would all be off the board before pick 52. Probably someone from that next tier of corners, such as Rock Ya-Sin from Temple, Trayvon Mullen from Clemson, or Amani Oruwariye from Penn State. We'll have to wait for Combine shuttle runs and 3 cone drills to see who separates themselves from the pack.

          If we do get a CB via trade or free agency, we could also go OL Cody Ford in round 1, ILB Wilson or Bush in the early 2nd, and then TE Noah Fant or Irv Smith at 52.
          Steeler teams featuring stat-driven, me-first, fantasy-football-darling diva types such as Antonio Brown & Le'Veon Bell won no championships.

          Super Bowl winning Steeler teams were built around a dynamic, in-your-face defense plus blue-collar, hard-hitting, no-nonsense football players on offense such as Hines Ward & Jerome Bettis.

          We don't want Juju & Conner to replace what we lost in Brown & Bell.

          We are counting on Juju & Conner to return us to the glory we once had with Hines & The Bus.

          Comment

          • Steel Maniac
            Banned
            • Apr 2017
            • 19472

            #6
            Ruth, what is your observation on Bush as a player?

            Comment

            • fordfixer
              Legend
              • May 2008
              • 10921

              #7
              Originally posted by RuthlessBurgher
              Okay, now we know the plans are to try to trade AB. While I'd like to be able to use him as ammunition to be able to move up from #20 into the top 10 to get LSU LB Devin White, that's pretty much a pipe dream at this point. Since AB seems to be sabotaging his value on Twitter these days, I would be happy if we were able to get an early second round pick for him (say the Niners' pick at #36 overall).

              We also learned this week that the team will not be using any tags on Le'Veon Bell, so he's free to sign anywhere, and the maximum compensation we could possibly get for him would be a 2020 third round comp pick. However, if we are aggressive in free agency and use our cap space to add a big money defender on day one, we would essentially be cancelling out the possible 3rd round comp for Bell next year (that's why I suggested pursuing a CB2 like Robert Alford who was recently cut by the Falcons, since players who are released do not count against the free agent comp pick formula...but Arizona already signed him, so that's a moot point now anyway). I'm not thrilled with the quality of the free agent CB's this year anyway, and I expect Baltimore to be able to franchise tag C.J. Mosley after trading away Flacco's contract, so I'm still looking for another way to use our resources to improve on defense.

              Folks here have been mentioning Xavier Rhodes as a possibility recently. I like it. However, the Vikings aren't going to release him and he's not being traded for a mid-round pick. He's been to the Pro Bowl multiple times and was first team All Pro as recently as 2017. That's the kind of guy they might be looking for a first round pick...or maybe multiple second day picks to obtain. I love the idea of being able to team up Rhodes opposite Haden. That would be like having two CB1's, and by far better than anything we've had in our secondary for a long time. Well, what do we have to give in order to make it happen?

              I would offer Minnesota our 2nd round pick this year (52nd overall) and our 3rd round pick in 2020 plus CB Artie Burns in exchange from CB Xavier Rhodes and WR Laquon Treadwell. We can afford to give up our current pick in the latter half of round 2 now if we think we'd be able to obtain a pick in the early portion of round 2 for AB. And we could afford to give up our regular 2020 3rd round pick now if we expect to get a 2020 3rd round comp pick for Bell (and since we'd be spending the majority of our available cap dollars on a big trade rather than a big free agent signing, we wouldn't have to worry about that potential 3rd round comp pick being cancelled out next year).

              Burns and Treadwell both have been disappointing 1st round picks 3 seasons into their NFL careers, so perhaps a change of scenery could do them both some good. Minnesota would be losing their top corner in this deal, but adding Burns could replenish some of their depth behind remaining CB's Trae Waynes, Mike Hughes, and Mackenzie Alexander. Treadwell wasn't getting much playing time with the Vikes behind the likes of Adam Thielen and Stefan Diggs, but in Pittsburgh he could compete with James Washington and possibly a mid-level free agent signing or mid-round draft pick at WR opposite of Juju Smith-Schuster.

              Although he is only 1 year younger than Haden (XR is 28 and JH is 29), Haden has now been in the league for 9 years while Rhodes has been in the league for only 6 years so far, so Rhodes should have more tread on his tires in a relative sense (Haden was relatively young when he was drafted, and Rhodes was comparatively older). Haden is due to have a cap hit of $11.9M in the last year of his deal (I would like to try to also extend Haden's deal for a few more years as well this offseason). Rhodes is signed for 4 more years at similar base salaries to what we've been paying Haden (he's scheduled to make $10.4M in 2019, $9.9M in 2020, $11.15M in 2021, and $13.25M in 2022). The remainder of his prorating signing bonus would be on Minnesota's cap, so we'd only be responsible for those yearly base salaries mentioned above, plus I believe a roster bonus each year of $500K and a workout bonus of $100K, which would only inflate his yearly cap hits to $11M in 2019, $10.5M in 2020, $11.75M in 2021, and $13.85M in 2022). Seems like it would be a better overall allocation of resources to pay a top CB still in the midst of his prime years than a similarly aged RB or WR like Bell or Brown.

              And then...in the draft:

              1.20 Iowa TE T.J. Hockenson

              Potentially one of the best all around TE prospects to come out in the draft since our own Heath Miller. Hockenson worked well in 2TE sets at Iowa with teammate Noah Fant (who might be a 2nd round pick in this draft in his own right), so he should be able to work well with Vance McDonald. We could easily use more 2TE sets this coming year as opposed to the 3+WR we seemed to prefer this past year, and since Hockenson, McDonald, and Juju are all accomplished blockers as well as receivers, we can keep opponents guessing about whether a run or a pass might be coming next rather than telegraphing our play selection based on formation.

              2.36 (from SF for AB) Alabama ILB Mack Wilson

              He's not Ryan Shazier, but no one is. I think he's more of a borderline round 1-2 prospect than a bona fide mid 1st round guy at this point. He is an improvement over the likes of Vince Williams, Jon Bostic, L.J. Fort, and Tyler Matakevich, though. If he does not make it down to #36, though, there could be some other potential options here, such as Devin Bush instead.

              3.83 Michigan OLB Chase Winovich

              An upgrade over Anthony Chickillo who could also push Bud Dupree for playing time as well. And the fact that he grew up in Allegheny County never hurt when our front office is scouting players.

              4. Georgia RB Elijah Holyfield

              A replacement for Stefan Ridley. Didn't get much of a shot for most of his college career because of the presence of guys like Nick Chubb and Sony Michel ahead of him on the depth chart, but this year he was able to showcase his violent running style, which is not surprising considering who his father is (our front office also tends to like guys with strong athletic bloodlines as well).

              6. (from OAK) Utah FS Marquis Blair

              Depth behind Sean Davis. A hard hitter in spite of a small frame...could be something once he gets in a pro weight program and adds some pounds.

              6. Arkansas G Hjalte Froholdt

              Interior OL depth. Comes from Denmark with very little experience playing OL, but seems to have the skill set to turn into something if given the time. I would feel better if it were Mike Munchak shaping this lump of clay into a potential player, but we'll see how much of his magic touch rubbed off on protégé Shaun Sarrett.

              7. (from TB) Arkansas DE Armon Watts

              Depth along the d-line. Only a one year starter in college, but has the frame we tend to look for in our d-linemen and seems to have the functional strength to anchor against double teams and potentially beat single blockers.
              Dude ain’t you supposed to be working or something? Lol nice read thanks for sharing

              Molon labe

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              American metal pimped by asiansteel
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              Comment

              • hawaiiansteel
                Legend
                • May 2008
                • 35649

                #8
                nice work Ruthless!

                Comment

                • RuthlessBurgher
                  Legend
                  • May 2008
                  • 33208

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Steel Maniac
                  Ruth, what is your observation on Bush as a player?
                  I see Bush vs. Wilson as somewhat similar to Shazier vs. Mosley a few years ago. I'd say that Bush might have a higher ceiling than Wilson, but also a lower floor as well (greater bust potential). Wilson is more of a what-you-see-is-what-you-get type of guy. I liked Shazier more than Mosley back then because he had otherworldly athleticism in a solid LB's body. The reason that I'm leaning the other way this time (Wilson over Bush right now) is because when you have an undersized guy like Bush, you want to see that elite level athleticism to make up for it, but he's not in Shazier's league. I see him more like a Deone Buchanon or Mark Barron type. Very useful in today's NFL, but not the complete package entirely. If Wilson were gone at 36, though, I'd take a swing at Bush and try to use him creatively. He could be what we wanted LJ Fort to be.
                  Steeler teams featuring stat-driven, me-first, fantasy-football-darling diva types such as Antonio Brown & Le'Veon Bell won no championships.

                  Super Bowl winning Steeler teams were built around a dynamic, in-your-face defense plus blue-collar, hard-hitting, no-nonsense football players on offense such as Hines Ward & Jerome Bettis.

                  We don't want Juju & Conner to replace what we lost in Brown & Bell.

                  We are counting on Juju & Conner to return us to the glory we once had with Hines & The Bus.

                  Comment

                  • Northern_Blitz
                    Legend
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 24373

                    #10
                    Originally posted by RuthlessBurgher
                    I see Bush vs. Wilson as somewhat similar to Shazier vs. Mosley a few years ago. I'd say that Bush might have a higher ceiling than Wilson, but also a lower floor as well (greater bust potential). Wilson is more of a what-you-see-is-what-you-get type of guy. I liked Shazier more than Mosley back then because he had otherworldly athleticism in a solid LB's body. The reason that I'm leaning the other way this time (Wilson over Bush right now) is because when you have an undersized guy like Bush, you want to see that elite level athleticism to make up for it, but he's not in Shazier's league. I see him more like a Deone Buchanon or Mark Barron type. Very useful in today's NFL, but not the complete package entirely. If Wilson were gone at 36, though, I'd take a swing at Bush and try to use him creatively. He could be what we wanted LJ Fort to be.
                    Thanks Ruth.

                    I'm always very grateful for the insight on prospects we get around here.

                    Not sure how you guys make the time, but I'm glad you do.

                    Comment

                    • Steel Maniac
                      Banned
                      • Apr 2017
                      • 19472

                      #11
                      Originally posted by RuthlessBurgher
                      I see Bush vs. Wilson as somewhat similar to Shazier vs. Mosley a few years ago. I'd say that Bush might have a higher ceiling than Wilson, but also a lower floor as well (greater bust potential). Wilson is more of a what-you-see-is-what-you-get type of guy. I liked Shazier more than Mosley back then because he had otherworldly athleticism in a solid LB's body. The reason that I'm leaning the other way this time (Wilson over Bush right now) is because when you have an undersized guy like Bush, you want to see that elite level athleticism to make up for it, but he's not in Shazier's league. I see him more like a Deone Buchanon or Mark Barron type. Very useful in today's NFL, but not the complete package entirely. If Wilson were gone at 36, though, I'd take a swing at Bush and try to use him creatively. He could be what we wanted LJ Fort to be.
                      Nice in depth analysis. With that said, we need to trust that Colbert is doing his homework because this is a cross roads for us.
                      Last edited by Steel Maniac; 03-21-2019, 06:30 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Iron City Inc.
                        Hall of Famer
                        • Jun 2013
                        • 3237

                        #12
                        Great thread Ruthless. One thing I'll say is I believe by the time draft day rolls around Mullen of Clemson will be lumped into the group of first round corners you mentioned. Baker ,Murphy and Greedy who I agree are all likely off the board day 1 but the Mullen kid I believe tests well. If that happens he's going to go early since he checks a bunch of boxes already. How early idk but he runs a quick 10 split and a sub 4.5 n he should from what u c on tape so if those boxes get checked we'll need that late 1 or early 2 from the AB trade to have a shot imho.

                        Comment

                        • Steel Maniac
                          Banned
                          • Apr 2017
                          • 19472

                          #13
                          I’m terrified of Colbert taking a cornerback/ safety in the first round.

                          Comment

                          • Iron City Inc.
                            Hall of Famer
                            • Jun 2013
                            • 3237

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Steel Maniac
                            I’m terrified of Colbert taking a cornerback/ safety in the first round.
                            I have to admit I'm with you on that.

                            Comment

                            • RuthlessBurgher
                              Legend
                              • May 2008
                              • 33208

                              #15
                              Now that we know what we got in return for AB, it's about time to do a 2.0, eh?

                              My initial plan had us trading multiple picks in order to obtain a starting CB (Xavier Rhodes) to play opposite Haden, but we have since signed Steven Nelson to fill that role.

                              The signing of Donte Moncrief helps to alleviate the loss of AB somewhat, but we could still add another WR on day two of the draft, since this draft seems particularly deep at WR in rounds 2 & 3, plus we've had success adding wideouts on day two of the draft in the past.

                              Our biggest hole right now is at ILB, so I'm going to make a bold move to go up and get the best possible solution. Buffalo appeared to be willing to move down from #9 to #20 when we were discussing a possible AB trade, so maybe they would still be willing to drop down those 11 spots in exchange for some of our extra draft capital...they have many needs to fill, after all If Devin White is available at #9, I'd offer them both of the picks we got from Oakland in the AB trade (3.66 and 5.141) plus our 3rd round pick in 2020 as well. We could get the guy that we really need to solidify our defense as a whole and that would still leave us with 8 total picks this year (1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 6, 6, 7).

                              Trade 1.20, 3.66, 5.141, and a 2020 3rd to BUF for 1.9

                              1.9 ILB Devin White 6'1" 240 LSU
                              2.52 WR Kelvin Harmon 6'3" 215 NC State
                              3.83 OLB Chase Winovich 6'3" 255 Michigan
                              4.122 TE Josh Oliver 6'5" 250 San Jose State
                              6.175 FS Marquis Blair 6'2" 195 Utah
                              6.192 RB Travis Homer 5'11" 195 Miami
                              6.207 OG Hjalte Froholdt 6'5" 315 Arkansas
                              7.219 DE Armon Watts 6'5" 298 Arkansas
                              Steeler teams featuring stat-driven, me-first, fantasy-football-darling diva types such as Antonio Brown & Le'Veon Bell won no championships.

                              Super Bowl winning Steeler teams were built around a dynamic, in-your-face defense plus blue-collar, hard-hitting, no-nonsense football players on offense such as Hines Ward & Jerome Bettis.

                              We don't want Juju & Conner to replace what we lost in Brown & Bell.

                              We are counting on Juju & Conner to return us to the glory we once had with Hines & The Bus.

                              Comment

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