New defensive additions could equate to even less base defense for the Steelers

[Slapstick]

I see we are changing the nerrative..

I"m not going to get into that 2008 Super Bowl because that's going to take the discussion in another direction that will cause great debate.

But the point is that we haven't gotten to a Super Bowl with a great team in 5 years. Factoring in also the terrible secondary Tomlin constantly puts together from a coach who was supposedly a good secondary coach.

That's why the minority owners wanted to get after him.

Nobody is changing the argument. The argument is about postseason success. So, how many more active head coaches have more SB rings than Tomlin?

[Northern_Blitz]

We are talking facts. Not hate. I like Tomlin fine. But with the team we have had for the last 5 years, it has underachieved. Playoff winning has nothing to do with " Like or dislike" of a person. In Football, either your getting it done (Super Bowl appearance) with a great team or your not.

Has nothing to do with like, dislike, weather a guy is white or black. When the playoff evidence shows that Tomlin isn't getting it done.

The evidence shows that Rooney had to calm the minority owners down from getting after Tomlin. Because the owners looked at the evidence (as you say) and have came to the same , logical conclusion of this team underachieving. THAT'S the evidence right there.

Do you really think we've underachieved in the last 5 years?

We made the playoffs in 4 of the last 5 years. How many teams have done that?

In that time, we've played 7 playoff games (almost 2 per year we made the playoffs). How many teams have played more?

In those 7 games, we were the home team 3 times and the away time 4 times. Since the home team usually wins in the NFL, you might expect that our record over those 7 games was 3-4. That would be correct.

Interestingly, we had 2 home losses, and 2 away wins. So are we terrible for losing twice at home, or are we amazing for winning twice on the road?

But, on average I'd say that means that we pretty much met the expectations of our regular season record in the playoffs over your 5 year time span. But, on top of that we probably delivered more playoff games than just about any team.

Also, your expectations argument seems (1) wrong and (2) circular.

Re (1): The Steelers have high expectations because they've been so good for so long.

This article is from August 2015 but it shows that Steelers as the 3rd winningest team in the league (101 wins) behind the Pats (122) and the Colts (110). So, it's missing the 2015, 2016, 2017 seasons. https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/08/nfl...l-team-is-best

2015: 10-6
2016: 11-5
2017: 13-3

So on average in those seasons in those seasons, we have 11.3 wins per season (more than a game better than our 10 year average in the link). This shows that the Steelers are actually outperformed their very high historical expectations.

Re (2): Expectations in Pittsburgh are going up. Part of the reason is because they have a very good coach who has led teams that outperformed even our our crazily high historical expectations. So, it's his success that drives the insane expectations. Then, you want to punish him for not winning another SB because he didn't meet the expectations you placed on him because of his success.

Also, it's pretty clear that the minority owners don't know how to run a football team. I hope it was Tepper that led the charge on the Tomlin thing. I bet the Panthers will do worse than the Steelers over the next 5 years.

Before that, the last Steelers minority owner to buy a team was Jimmy Haslam. You might want to check the performance of the Steelers vs the Browns since he bought them in 2012.

The only expectation we're not meeting is that we're not better than the Pats, who are the best dynasty the NFL has ever seen (at least in the salary cap era).

[Slapstick]

Do you really think we've underachieved in the last 5 years?

We made the playoffs in 4 of the last 5 years. How many teams have done that?

In that time, we've played 7 playoff games (almost 2 per year we made the playoffs). How many teams have played more?

In those 7 games, we were the home team 3 times and the away time 4 times. Since the home team usually wins in the NFL, you might expect that our record over those 7 games was 3-4. That would be correct.

Interestingly, we had 2 home losses, and 2 away wins. So are we terrible for losing twice at home, or are we amazing for winning twice on the road?

But, on average I'd say that means that we pretty much met the expectations of our regular season record in the playoffs over your 5 year time span. But, on top of that we probably delivered more playoff games than just about any team.

Also, your expectations argument seems (1) wrong and (2) circular.

Re (1): The Steelers have high expectations because they've been so good for so long.

This article is from August 2015 but it shows that Steelers as the 3rd winningest team in the league (101 wins) behind the Pats (122) and the Colts (110). So, it's missing the 2015, 2016, 2017 seasons. https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/08/nfl...l-team-is-best

2015: 10-6
2016: 11-5
2017: 13-3

So on average in those seasons in those seasons, we have 11.3 wins per season (more than a game better than our 10 year average in the link). This shows that the Steelers are actually outperformed their very high historical expectations.

Re (2): Expectations in Pittsburgh are going up. Part of the reason is because they have a very good coach who has led teams that outperformed even our our crazily high historical expectations. So, it's his success that drives the insane expectations. Then, you want to punish him for not winning another SB because he didn't meet the expectations you placed on him because of his success.

Also, it's pretty clear that the minority owners don't know how to run a football team. I hope it was Tepper that led the charge on the Tomlin thing. I bet the Panthers will do worse than the Steelers over the next 5 years.

Before that, the last Steelers minority owner to buy a team was Jimmy Haslam. You might want to check the performance of the Steelers vs the Browns since he bought them in 2012.

The only expectation we're not meeting is that we're not better than the Pats, who are the best dynasty the NFL has ever seen (at least in the salary cap era).

Boom...

[feltdizz]

Do you really think we've underachieved in the last 5 years?

We made the playoffs in 4 of the last 5 years. How many teams have done that?

In that time, we've played 7 playoff games (almost 2 per year we made the playoffs). How many teams have played more?

In those 7 games, we were the home team 3 times and the away time 4 times. Since the home team usually wins in the NFL, you might expect that our record over those 7 games was 3-4. That would be correct.

Interestingly, we had 2 home losses, and 2 away wins. So are we terrible for losing twice at home, or are we amazing for winning twice on the road?

But, on average I'd say that means that we pretty much met the expectations of our regular season record in the playoffs over your 5 year time span. But, on top of that we probably delivered more playoff games than just about any team.

Also, your expectations argument seems (1) wrong and (2) circular.

Re (1): The Steelers have high expectations because they've been so good for so long.

This article is from August 2015 but it shows that Steelers as the 3rd winningest team in the league (101 wins) behind the Pats (122) and the Colts (110). So, it's missing the 2015, 2016, 2017 seasons. https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/08/nfl...l-team-is-best

2015: 10-6
2016: 11-5
2017: 13-3

So on average in those seasons in those seasons, we have 11.3 wins per season (more than a game better than our 10 year average in the link). This shows that the Steelers are actually outperformed their very high historical expectations.

Re (2): Expectations in Pittsburgh are going up. Part of the reason is because they have a very good coach who has led teams that outperformed even our our crazily high historical expectations. So, it's his success that drives the insane expectations. Then, you want to punish him for not winning another SB because he didn't meet the expectations you placed on him because of his success.

Also, it's pretty clear that the minority owners don't know how to run a football team. I hope it was Tepper that led the charge on the Tomlin thing. I bet the Panthers will do worse than the Steelers over the next 5 years.

Before that, the last Steelers minority owner to buy a team was Jimmy Haslam. You might want to check the performance of the Steelers vs the Browns since he bought them in 2012.

The only expectation we're not meeting is that we're not better than the Pats, who are the best dynasty the NFL has ever seen (at least in the salary cap era).

explosions.. over powering!! - LL Cool J

I kept calling him Tupper but yes, Tepper moved on and one thing we all know is Billionaires ALWAYS think they know whats best. The talk in Charlotte is how he has a brass balls statue in his office and he tore down a mansion and built a bigger one and had a penis shaped pool in his back yard to spite his neighbors.

I could definitely see Tepper being the one who wanted Tomlin fired.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Yup... Teams will force us into our base defense to take advantage of our crappy ILBs and our inability to properly execute a 3-4 defense.

If the DL can be a little more stout than last year - which they hopefully will be with Tuitt coming off of injury, and the OLBs can take a step forward - Watt entering his second year, then ILBs are at an advantage over 2017. Add to that the idea that Bostic will definitely not be a Shazier, but also will not be nearly as bad as Spence, and the ILB situation will hopefully be further along than it was at the end of last season.

[steelz09]

How did we go 24-8 the last 2 years and our coaches can't coach?

It's all due to the players?

Thank God we had a cupcake schedule last year.

How many awful or backup QBs lit us up last year?

Additionally, how many games did we just BARELY win against sh1tty teams only because of last minute heroics from our offense and especially Boswell.

[Steel Maniac]

Thank God we had a cupcake schedule last year.

How many awful or backup QBs lit us up last year?

Additionally, how many games did we just BARELY win against sh1tty teams only because of last minute heroics from our offense and especially Boswell.

We had an easy schedule last year of only playing two legit QBs......Brady and Stafford. That’s how we got by

[Steel Maniac]

Thank God we had a cupcake schedule last year.

How many awful or backup QBs lit us up last year?

Additionally, how many games did we just BARELY win against sh1tty teams only because of last minute heroics from our offense and especially Boswell.

We had a schedule last year of only playing two legit QBs......Brady and Stafford. That’s how we got by

[Steel Maniac]

...............

[feltdizz]

Thank God we had a cupcake schedule last year.

How many awful or backup QBs lit us up last year?

Additionally, how many games did we just BARELY win against sh1tty teams only because of last minute heroics from our offense and especially Boswell.

a win is a win..

whether its by 1 point or by 20.

A lot of our breakdowns were due to communication issues in the backfield. We got rid of Mitchell AND Carnell Lake moved on. I expect our secondary to be better this year.

The numbers don't lie though, we win a lot more than we lose.

[RuthlessBurgher]

NFL's best defenses: Who got better, worse, and who's next up

9:53 AM ET
ESPN

Despite the three months that remain until kickoff, a handful of NFL teams are vying to stay in the conversation among the league’s best defenses long before they play a single snap in 2018.

During the offseason, these teams took steps via pricey free-agent acquisitions, trades and the draft to make marked improvements to their defensive personnel; moves that aim to bolster the championship aspirations many of them already had.

Here’s a look at where things stand for the top five defenses from last year, from roster additions and subtractions to how much better or worse each got, as well as which other team might crack the top five by the season’s end.

Vikings 2017 rank: 1st

Major additions: DT Sheldon Richardson, CB Mike Hughes
Major losses: DT Tom Johnson, NT Shamar Stephen, LB Emmanuel Lamur

2018 outlook: The Vikings already had one of the most talented defenses in the NFL before they signed Sheldon Richardson to a one-year deal in free agency. Adding Richardson to the league’s reigning top defense not only upgrades the 3-technique spot, it solidifies Minnesota as a Super Bowl contender. Richardson earned a top-10 pass-rushing grade from Pro Football Focus last season and should provide a serious push from the interior next to Linval Joseph. Between those two and edge rushers Everson Griffen, who is coming off a career sack year despite battling through plantar fasciitis, and Danielle Hunter, the Vikings will rival the likes of Philadelphia and Jacksonville as the best D-line in the NFL. Mike Zimmer’s stout defense finished first in yards (275.9) and points allowed (15. last season while holding quarterbacks to a 73.0 passer rating. The rich got richer in the draft when Minnesota focused a bulk of its efforts on adding depth pieces, from selecting cornerback Mike Hughes at No. 30 to drafting players to compete for a spot in the defensive line rotation, an element that was missing in 2017.

Zimmer hinted at wanting to experiment with four cornerbacks in some of Minnesota’s sub packages, and having a player like Hughes, along with three other first-rounders in the secondary alone (Harrison Smith, Xavier Rhodes and Trae Waynes) should allow the Vikings to utilize exotic looks often. That will be critical given the elite passers they’re set to face this season, from Aaron Rodgers to Tom Brady to Carson Wentz, Jared Goff, Jimmy Garoppolo and Russell Wilson. Minnesota could use some more depth at linebacker, and if the Vikings don’t sign a veteran free agent this summer, training camp will feature an important position battle to see who will fill that void, particularly at outside linebacker. Minnesota locked up Eric Kendricks to a long-term deal in April and could be looking to do the same with Anthony Barr next. The strength of this franchise has long been its defense. The moves the Vikings made this offseason reflect that, putting Minnesota in prime position to continue its run as the NFL's top defense.

Jaguars 2017 rank: 2nd

Major additions: DT Taven Bryan, CB D.J. Hayden, S Ronnie Harrison
Major losses: CB Aaron Colvin, LB Paul Posluszny

2018 outlook: The Jaguars return 12 of their top 14 defensive players from last season, including six Pro Bowlers: DE Calais Campbell, DT Malik Jackson, DE Yannick Ngakoue, LB Telvin Smith, CB Jalen Ramsey, CB A.J. Bouye. Campbell and Ramsey also were first-team All-Pros. Colvin was the nickelback and the Jaguars signed Hayden to replace him. Myles Jack moves inside full-time to replace Posluszny, and second-year player Blair Brown takes over at strongside linebacker. Those are the only changes from a unit that ranked second in interceptions and sacks and first in pass defense. Ramsey and Bouye are arguably the best cornerback tandem in the NFL, and Bouye has come back with a chip on his shoulder because he felt he got slighted by not making the All-Pro team. The defense had some issues later in the season, giving up at least 24 points in five of the final nine games (including twice in the playoffs), and several players admitted they lost focus at times during that stretch. Coordinator Todd Wash has made consistency a focus during OTAs, and that’s going to be the biggest issue (other than staying healthy) in 2018.

Broncos 2017 rank: 3rd

Major additions: OLB Bradley Chubb, CB Tramaine Brock, DE Clinton McDonald, S Su’a Cravens
Major losses: CB Aqib Talib, LB Corey Nelson

2018 outlook: Many of the Broncos' defensive statistics in 2017 were what the team has grown accustomed to in recent seasons, especially the 290 yards allowed per game and 89.4 yards rushing allowed per game. But the bottom line is they couldn’t get Von Miller free in the pass rush enough because opposing offenses weren't worried enough about anybody else in the formation to take the almost constant double- and triple-teams away from Miller. And their 29 touchdown passes allowed was a factor of both poor field position caused by their own offense’s turnovers, but also inconsistent red zone play. They believe they’ve addressed a major piece in that with the selection of Chubb at No. 5 in the draft. Chubb, as well as a healthy Shane Ray (he had three wrist surgeries last season), should give Miller more room to work, and he's poised for a huge year because of it. Bradley Roby has to be ready to replace Talib, who went to four Pro Bowls in his four seasons in Denver. The Broncos liked what they saw from Roby when Talib got tossed from one game for fighting with Michael Crabtree and was suspended for another in the wake of that fight.

Eagles 2017 rank: 4th

Major additions: DE Michael Bennett, DT Haloti Ngata
Major losses: DE Vinny Curry, CB Patrick Robinson, DT Beau Allen, LB Mychal Kendricks

2018 outlook: The Eagles’ defensive line -- one of their great strengths during the Super Bowl run -- has dealt with its share of turnover and injury this offseason. Curry and Allen are now in Tampa Bay, DT Tim Jernigan has a long road back following surgery to repair a herniated disk, and DE Brandon Graham is recovering from ankle surgery. The Eagles imported a pair of accomplished players in Bennett and Ngata to help fortify the front, though both are in the twilight of their careers and dealt with injuries of their own in 2017. Things will have to break right on the defensive line for the Eagles to experience a similar level of success as last year. Defensive coordinator Jim Schwartz will also have to find replacements for contributors Robinson and Kendricks. Robinson in particular played a critical role as the standout nickel corner. Fortunately for him, CB Sidney Jones (Achilles) is healthy and full of star potential. He should help stabilize the secondary. With a lot of miles on the odometer from last season and a few question marks hanging over this group, it wouldn’t be surprising if the defense took a half-step backward. But there’s enough talent here to keep the Eagles among the elite.

Steelers 2017 rank: 5th

Major additions: S Morgan Burnett, LB Jon Bostic, S Terrell Edmunds
Major losses: LB Ryan Shazier, S Mike Mitchell, CB William Gay

2018 outlook: It’s hard to say the Steelers' defense is markedly better without Shazier, who was having an All-Pro season before undergoing spinal stabilization surgery in December. The rushing defense fell apart without him, giving up 133 yards per game on the ground in Weeks 13-17 and the playoffs. Free-agent addition Jon Bostic and backup Tyler Matakevich might be able to produce, but they won’t replace Shazier. Still, the Steelers have enough firepower to contend for a top-five defense yet again. They are well-stocked with pass-rushers, led by one of the league’s best defensive end duos in Cam Heyward and Stephon Tuitt. They apply consistent interior pressure. The Steelers are hoping for major jumps from outside linebackers T.J. Watt and Bud Dupree. Inside linebacker Vince Williams can build off his eight-sack campaign last year. And the secondary hasn’t been this deep in years. They have at least four capable corners and a first-round safety (Edmunds) who might have trouble seeing the field behind starters Burnett and Davis. And at 6-foot-2 and 217 pounds with 4.4 speed, Edmunds could grow into a dime linebacker in pass coverage. Since 2013, the Steelers have invested serious draft capital in the defense. That investment has paid off in overall improvement, but the cracks showed in big moments against New England and Jacksonville last season. Time to patch those up with a more consistent defense.

One to watch in 2018

Rams 2017 rank: 19th

Major additions: CB Marcus Peters, CB Aqib Talib, DT Ndamukong Suh, S Lamarcus Joyner (re-signed)
Major losses: CB Trumaine Johnson, DE Robert Quinn, LB Alec Ogletree

2018 outlook: The Rams took a win-now approach in the offseason, opting for the veteran trade market and free agency to add key pieces to Wade Phillips’ defensive unit. Yes, the lack of proven edge rushers and second-level defenders should be brought into this discussion. I get it. However, with the additions of cornerbacks Marcus Peters and Aqib Talib via trades -- along with placing the franchise tag on versatile safety Lamarcus Joyner -- the L.A. secondary looks legit. That’s a ball-hawking unit, a physical group with the ability to play man coverage, challenge routes and finish. Love it. Lock those receivers down and let the boys up front hunt the QB. Plus, with the Rams landing Ndamukong Suh in free agency, L.A. can pair the veteran defensive tackle with All-Pro Aaron Donald. That gives L.A. two disruptors in the middle of the defense who can also put those linebackers in a position to run free. Read, react and track the ball. And with Phillips pulling the strings in the game plan, the Rams can cater to their strengths to create turnovers, pressure and positive field position. The way I see it, this is a unit with the talent and the upside to make a sizable leap in 2018.

[RuthlessBurgher]

When it comes to defensive coverages, the Steelers are still a zone team, but can also play man

The Steelers’ fan base has long been disgusted with the team’s inability, or unwillingness, to play man coverage. Recent PFF stats show although they don’t play it often, they are capable.

By Jeff Hartman
Jun 27, 2018, 11:30am EDT

The debate among Pittsburgh Steelers for years has been why the team relies on zone coverages on defense. Besides the fact Mike Tomlin is a Tampa-2 disciple, the coaching staff the team has hired has typically followed suit regarding zone coverage over man coverage.

Despite Tom Brady and the Patriots, among others, shredding the zone to pieces, the team almost has had a stubbornness regarding changing this approach. In a recent article on Pro Football Focus (PFF), they diagrammed all of the different man and zone schemes NFL teams utilize, but added some interesting data behind these coverages.

Check out what they had to say about the Steelers in regards to their schematic decisions on the defensive side of the football.

Man Coverage

Although the Steelers didn’t use man-coverage a lot, when they did they were extremely successful.


By completion percentage allowed, the Pittsburgh Steelers were the best defense in the NFL when they ran Cover-1, allowing just 44.8 percent of passes to be completed, but they ran it on just 13.4 percent of their snaps against the pass.

Zone Coverage

When it comes to playing zone coverage, only the Carolina Panthers used zone schemes more than the Pittsburgh Steelers:

Carolina Panthers – 72.5 percent

Pittsburgh Steelers – 70.1 percent

Buffalo Bills – 68.3 percent

Cleveland Browns – 66.9 percent

Tampa Bay Buccaneers – 66.4 percent

...

What is unique about these statistics is how the Steelers rarely used man-coverages, but when they did they saw success. If you see something working, why go back to the alternative instead of seeing what you have with this specific scheme?

This is where the frustration usually kicks in for Steelers fans, but if one thing is different about 2018, compared to 2017, is there has been a tremendous amount of turnover from last year. Gone is Carnell Lake as the defensive backs coach, hired was Tom Bradley. Gone are Mike Mitchell and Robert Golden, and in their place is a great combination of athleticism, versatility and speed.

Will this be enough to actually for the Steelers to even be more of a 50/50 team in 2018 when it comes to man-to-zone coverage used? If I were a betting man I would bet against it, but you never know.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018/6/27/17489434/when-it-comes-to-defensive-coverages-the-steelers-are-still-a-zone-team-but-can-also-play-man-pff

[Steel Maniac]

Against the Brady and Rogers of the league, we gotta be able to play man coverage. You can zone up on bum Qb’s.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Against the Brady and Rogers of the league, we gotta be able to play man coverage. You can zone up on bum Qb’s.

You complain about the Steelers overlooking teams, and then make reference to "bum" QB's. Alrighty then.

[feltdizz]

You complain about the Steelers overlooking teams, and then make reference to "bum" QB's. Alrighty then.