Tomlin that was

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Because they would give their best offensive player the ball and that is Fournette, the Steelers in all likelihood would have had to stop a 3rd and 3, 4 or 5 after two Fournette runs and timeouts, maybe they run it a third time, maybe they try a pass that is 100% going to be complete, they aren't taking the chance of stopping the clock for free and then punting the ball, the clock was going to keep running one way or another, Cowher made a potential HOF career out of that theory with a back similar in style to Fournette.

You have to remember at this point in the game their defense had to have some doubts about their ability to stop Ben and the offense.

Pappy

come on pap, you're much smarter than that. if you know it and we know it, why would they do it every down? that's all the more reason to play action WITH shovel pass/counter/trap/bootleg... remember Ben's fake pitch that opened a highway for the shovel pass y'day for Eli Rogers? Worked because we had run that stupid sweep in critical situation early. if you think all they have is run fournette off guard straight up, you GREATLY underestimate what an NFL coach gets paid for

[papillon]

TJ Yates gashed us a few times too. This is the problem with hindsight. Sure we can say they give it to Fournette but what if they didn't? They were running that fake end around hand off a ton. Could easily have fooled us with it on the last drive. One of the reasons we lost was because we kept thinking they were going to hand off to Fournette and the play action killed us.

That's because Fournette was gashing us, that's when PA is most effective, I firmly believe that with the ball on the 25 yard line with 2:10 to go (8 seconds for the kickoff) and the Steelers with 2 TOs and the 2 minute warning, the Jags aren't coming out passing. If they do and make a first, you congratulate them and move on, but Fournette, IMO, would have received the first down carry for sure taking the game to the 2 minute warning. They may have run a QB draw or screen pass but I just don't believe they take the chance of stopping the clock for free, especially with the #2 defense in the league.

Pappy

[SteelerOfDeVille]

TJ Yates gashed us a few times too. This is the problem with hindsight. Sure we can say they give it to Fournette but what if they didn't? They were running that fake end around hand off a ton. Could easily have fooled us with it on the last drive. One of the reasons we lost was because we kept thinking they were going to hand off to Fournette and the play action killed us.

Yeldon... Yates is the qb with houston... totally f'd me up at first - "what does the Texans have to do with this!?!"

[papillon]

come on pap, you're much smarter than that. if you know it and we know it, why would they do it every down? that's all the more reason to play action WITH shovel pass/counter/trap/bootleg... remember Ben's fake pitch that opened a highway for the shovel pass y'day for Eli Rogers? Worked because we had run that stupid sweep in critical situation early. if you think all they have is run fournette off guard straight up, you GREATLY underestimate what an NFL coach gets paid for

Cowher put away more games with that strategy than any coach ever, run the ball, and rely on your defense, a punt wasn't a bad word to Cowher. I don't know Doug Marrone but I do know a little about Bortles, he's inaccurate and has not been in this situation before, I just don't see the Jags putting the game on his shoulders at that time. Yes, safe plays using his athleticism, bootleg, QB draw, shovel pass, even PA, etc. would all be on the table. Plus if they are trying for a 1st down with passes, bootlegs, jet sweeps, etc. there is a chance of fumble or INT, off tackle, off guard with two hands on the ball not so much, I don't see the Jags opening up the playbook in that situation. Maybe they surprise me and do it, but I'm looking for the hammer at least twice, then decide how to defend 3rd down.

Pappy

[SteelerOfDeVille]

That's because Fournette was gashing us, that's when PA is most effective

Basically, when the defense is selling out to stop the run, right?

[feltdizz]

That's because Fournette was gashing us, that's when PA is most effective, I firmly believe that with the ball on the 25 yard line with 2:10 to go (8 seconds for the kickoff) and the Steelers with 2 TOs and the 2 minute warning, the Jags aren't coming out passing. If they do and make a first, you congratulate them and move on, but Fournette, IMO, would have received the first down carry for sure taking the game to the 2 minute warning. They may have run a QB draw or screen pass but I just don't believe they take the chance of stopping the clock for free, especially with the #2 defense in the league.

Pappy

That sounds great but I know what I watched all day and it wasn't good on our end.

Maybe we pull off a miracle and get the ball back. However, every time we scored it sure seemed like they scored on the next possession.

[feltdizz]

Yeldon... Yates is the qb with houston... totally f'd me up at first - "what does the Texans have to do with this!?!"

yeah, him too

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Cowher put away more games with that strategy than any coach ever, run the ball, and rely on your defense, a punt wasn't a bad word to Cowher. I don't know Doug Marrone but I do know a little about Bortles, he's inaccurate and has not been in this situation before, I just don't see the Jags putting the game on his shoulders at that time. Yes, safe plays using his athleticism, bootleg, QB draw, shovel pass, even PA, etc. would all be on the table. Plus if they are trying for a 1st down with passes, bootlegs, jet sweeps, etc. there is a chance of fumble or INT, off tackle, off guard with two hands on the ball not so much, I don't see the Jags opening up the playbook in that situation. Maybe they surprise me and do it, but I'm looking for the hammer at least twice, then decide how to defend 3rd down.

Pappy

it's 3rd down where me and felt disagree with the majority here... they absolutely run on first and second regardless of whether we onside kick or kick deep.

But, 3rd down is a totally different animal depending on the game situation/field position, etc.

Point is, so many have said, "but, we DID stop them". I say, we can't assume those would've been the same plays. in fact, i think that more than likely they are NOT the same plays

[papillon]

Basically, when the defense is selling out to stop the run, right?

Or, thinking about the run and bite every time Bortles reaches the ball into his belly. I think the Steelers would have been more successful stacking the box and ensuring that Fournette wasn't getting yards or maybe they were and were simply incapable of stopping the running game which is even more scary, when you're selling out and can't stop it.

Pappy

[papillon]

it's 3rd down where me and felt disagree with the majority here... they absolutely run on first and second regardless of whether we onside kick or kick deep.

But, 3rd down is a totally different animal depending on the game situation/field position, etc.

Point is, so many have said, "but, we DID stop them". I say, we can't assume those would've been the same plays. in fact, i think that more than likely they are NOT the same plays

You're right, I agree 100% 1st and 2nd are runs, then the season rests on one play that the defense has to make and we can't assume they would have run on 3rd down, but a lot of it would depend on how successful the 1st two downs were, 3rd and 7 or more, do they throw it? 3rd and 3 up to 7 could be either. 3rd and short, could be either.

Pappy

[feltdizz]

Or, thinking about the run and bite every time Bortles reaches the ball into his belly. I think the Steelers would have been more successful stacking the box and ensuring that Fournette wasn't getting yards or maybe they were and were simply incapable of stopping the running game which is even more scary, when you're selling out and can't stop it.

Pappy

Pap, I think the Jags were playing with house money. I could definitely see them throwing a curve ball on 2nd or 3rd down if we kicked it deep. Why? Because we would be selling out to stop the run. That's the perfect time to hit us with the dagger.

[papillon]

Pap, I think the Jags were playing with house money. I could definitely see them throwing a curve ball on 2nd or 3rd down if we kicked it deep. Why? Because we would be selling out to stop the run. That's the perfect time to hit us with the dagger.

No doubt, I agree 100%, but in the end, Boswell hit us with the dagger with the horrible kick, he has to make sure it goes at a minimum 10 yards. I still believe the chances of getting a 3 and out were better than recovering an onside kick. The fact that the Jags were within 6 yards of FG range after the kick just compounded everyone's hate for the play. Hell, he didn't line up like he might kick it deep, he was two steps away from the ball, he didn't fool anyone.

Pappy

[SteelerOfDeVille]

No doubt, I agree 100%, but in the end, Boswell hit us with the dagger with the horrible kick, he has to make sure it goes at a minimum 10 yards. I still believe the chances of getting a 3 and out were better than recovering an onside kick. The fact that the Jags were within 6 yards of FG range after the kick just compounded everyone's hate for the play. Hell, he didn't line up like he might kick it deep, he was two steps away from the ball, he didn't fool anyone.

Pappy

again, to me, it was execution... between the bad kick AND the penalty on top of it, we gave 'em 10 yards...
If you push them back 10 yards to start that drive:
* i argue there isn't a significant difference in starting position whether you kick it deep or not (15 yards out of FG range or 40 yards out of FG range)
* Either way you have to make them go 3-and-out.
* the ONLY difference between the 2 kicks is that one of them gives you a chance to get the ball back on THAT play

[Eddie Spaghetti]

this nonsense about there being no difference in field pisition in kicking it deep or not getting the onsides is fantastic in it's idiocy

just 40 yards or so with a 3 and out. good lord

[SteelerOfDeVille]

just 40 yards or so with a 3 and out. good lord

and a 15% chance to get the ball.. which apparently you didn't want, since you left it out... now THAT is idiocy