PFF Ranks Pouncey

[feltdizz]

So Cap... you want to get rid of Pouncey, Bell and you think we overpaid for Tuitt.

Who do you want to pay?

Who do you want to replace them and where do we spend that money?

You think not paying these guys means we will we will automatically get better guys at other positions?

[feltdizz]

Funny you mention Hartings. Despite never getting the accolades of Pouncey I'd take him before Pouncey.
In fact a perfect example, you can sign good enough free agents like Hartings if you don't overspend on over rated players who themselves are no better than "good enough".

I have always felt that our legacy of great centers you mention (along with the occasional highlight worthy athletic splash plays) helped cement Pouncey's reputation as elite prematurely.

so the rest of the league also gives Pouncey the benefit of the doubt based on our past Centers?

He has duped the entire league into believing he is a top rated center?

[Captain Lemming]

You do realize Pouncey isn't the whole interior OL?

He is not, Ramon is soft too. The only people mover is DD, and sad thing everybody knows it which is why any smart defense will load up on his side.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Funny you mention Hartings. Despite never getting the accolades of Pouncey I'd take him before Pouncey.
In fact a perfect example, you can sign good enough free agents like Hartings if you don't overspend on over rated players who themselves are no better than "good enough".

I have always felt that our legacy of great centers you mention (along with the occasional highlight worthy athletic splash plays) helped cement Pouncey's reputation as elite prematurely.

Jeff Hartings signed a 6 year, $24.75M contract with the Steelers in 2001, when the NFL salary cap was $67.4M.

Maurkice Pouncey signed a 5 year, $44.14M contract with the Steelers in 2014, when the NFL salary cap was $133M.

If we just use the average annual value of those two contracts compared to where the total cap number was at the time each contract was signed, the percentage of the Steelers total cap hit used on their starting center was actually more with Hartings (16.3%) than it is now with Pouncey (15%).

[Captain Lemming]

So Cap... you want to get rid of Pouncey, Bell and you think we overpaid for Tuitt.

Who do you want to pay?

Who do you want to replace them and where do we spend that money?

You think not paying these guys means we will we will automatically get better guys at other positions?

I never said we overpaid Tuitt. I in fact said I liked the signing.
I was merely following your hypothetical which I don't believe will happen.
Under the conditions that our defense dominates for the entire season and we have great success without Tuitt, I would evaluate his true value based on those factors if he wasnt already signed.

I am fine that we signed Bell short term. I would not pay what he is asking for a long term deal.

Pouncey? I figure we'd get hit with dead money against the cap if we just let him go but I can imagine a plethora of ways our team can be improved if we had his 11 million dollar cap hit available.

[feltdizz]

Jeff Hartings signed a 6 year, $24.75M contract with the Steelers in 2001, when the NFL salary cap was $67.4M.

Maurkice Pouncey signed a 5 year, $44.14M contract with the Steelers in 2014, when the NFL salary cap was $133M.

If we just use the average annual value of those two contracts compared to where the total cap number was at the time each contract was signed, the percentage of the Steelers total cap hit used on their starting center was actually more with Hartings (16.3%) than it is now with Pouncey (15%).

I bet Cap would have wanted Harrings cut as well to make room for some average joe behind him. I guess you could field a team on the cheap but that usually means your team will stink. We usually spend to the cap and only lose players once we feel we have a suitable replacement on the team.

Again, who would this money go to if not Pouncey and Tuitt? You can only keep 53. Cap acts like you can move one guy and replace him with 3 cheaper guys and that's not how it works.

[Captain Lemming]

I bet Cap would have wanted Harrings cut as well to make room for some average joe behind him. I guess you could field a team on the cheap but that usually means your team will stink. We usually spend to the cap and only lose players once we feel we have a suitable replacement on the team.

Again, who would this money go to if not Pouncey and Tuitt? You can only keep 53. Cap acts like you can move one guy and replace him with 3 cheaper guys and that's not how it works.

Once again Dizz. Never said I didnt want Tuitt.....just following the path of your silly hypothetical.

As far as Pouncey?
If we let Pouncey walk and had signed a legit free agent corner instead, I do believe our chances against the likes of NE would have been far better.

Hey....the BRONCOS did exactly that just about the time we signed Pouncey and beat the Pats with Aqib Talib who they signed right off the Pats roster.

Heck if WE had Talib, would the Broncos even have beat "us" in that playoff without HIS presence on their defense to cover our guys?

BTW Dizz, you know I have been screaming FOR YEARS that we needed to fix the cornerback position and would have luved for us to pull that off.

Tell me Dizz, would that have been a bad move?

[RuthlessBurgher]

Aqib Talib is an undeniable talent, but I thought was way too much of a character risk to give him the big money deal Denver did (6 years, $57M with $26M guaranteed). He fought a dude at the rookie symposium (aimed at teaching rookies how to act like professionals), arrested for allegedly battering a taxi driver, arrested for allegedly firing a gun at his sister's boyfriend, shot himself in a leg and falsified the report, and suspended for using performance enhancing substances.

[Captain Lemming]

Aqib Talib is an undeniable talent, but I thought was way too much of a character risk to give him the big money deal Denver did (6 years, $57M with $26M guaranteed). He fought a dude at the rookie symposium (aimed at teaching rookies how to act like professionals), arrested for allegedly battering a taxi driver, arrested for allegedly firing a gun at his sister's boyfriend, shot himself in a leg and falsified the report, and suspended for using performance enhancing substances.

I can respect that. But to suggest that there is no other way to spend money tied up in Pouncey?
IMO signing a center (especially one of debatable value) top dollar while relying on a set of cornerbacks that nobody in the entire league wants?
When Willie Gay is your best guy for a time?
That is just bad priorities. Doesnt even have to be an all pro.
No need for elite. A really good corner (Ike Taylor type) before top paid center is more important in todays NFL.

[Slapstick]

Um...just because you are trying to debate Pouncey's talent level, that doesn't actually make it "debatable"...

[Captain Lemming]

Um...just because you are trying to debate Pouncey's talent level, that doesn't actually make it "debatable"...

Slappy old friend, came out to play as well?

I choose my words precisely Slappy.
I don't doubt Pouncey's "talent".
He is supremely talented for the position.
I very intentionally said "value".

Then again perhaps you used the word talent because my points about his "value" are indeed undeniable.

In the end, point taken, I misspoke in saying his value is debatable.
The fact that his value does not match his cap hit is an unassailable truth.

[feltdizz]

Once again Dizz. Never said I didnt want Tuitt.....just following the path of your silly hypothetical.

As far as Pouncey?
If we let Pouncey walk and had signed a legit free agent corner instead, I do believe our chances against the likes of NE would have been far better.

Hey....the BRONCOS did exactly that just about the time we signed Pouncey and beat the Pats with Aqib Talib who they signed right off the Pats roster.

Heck if WE had Talib, would the Broncos even have beat "us" in that playoff without HIS presence on their defense to cover our guys?

BTW Dizz, you know I have been screaming FOR YEARS that we needed to fix the cornerback position and would have luved for us to pull that off.

Tell me Dizz, would that have been a bad move?

trying to get a talented CB is always a good idea. Thinking you have to pass on your pro bowl center and leader of the OL to do it is simple short sighted.

For some one reason you think the only way we to get a good CB in FA is to move on from young talent we scouted and drafted. Why not shed a few older vets to make that happen?

You have this agenda against Piuncey and that's OK but acting like the only way to make moves is to get rid of your best players is crazy talk.

and Talib isn't the reason we lost to Denver.

Pretty sure it was Roby who poked the ball out of Toussaints hands.

[Slapstick]

Slappy old friend, came out to play as well?

I choose my words precisely Slappy.
I don't doubt Pouncey's "talent".
He is supremely talented for the position.
I very intentionally said "value".

Then again perhaps you used the word talent because my points about his "value" are indeed undeniable.

In the end, point taken, I misspoke in saying his value is debatable.
The fact that his value does not match his cap hit is an unassailable truth.

Fair point. By that criteria, any player's value is debatable, especially in this era of bloated salaries for professional athletes...

[birtikidis]

The only year that Ben broke 40 sacks since Pouncey has been in the league were 2011 and 2013. Coincidentally those were the only years that Pouncey didn't play every game.
Lets expand on that:
2010 32 sacks
2011 40 sacks
2012 30 sacks
2013 42 sacks
2014 33 sacks
2015 20 sacks (Ben was out for 4 games this season)
2016 17 sacks (Ben missed two games)

what is most telling is that Ben was sacked
50 times in 2009
46 times in 2008
47 times in 2007
46 times in 2006

I don't know how much more valuable a corner is than a franchise qb, but you can manage every team in the NFL but the Steelers.

[Captain Lemming]

trying to get a talented CB is always a good idea. Thinking you have to pass on your pro bowl center and leader of the OL to do it is simple short sighted.

For some one reason you think the only way we to get a good CB in FA is to move on from young talent we scouted and drafted. Why not shed a few older vets to make that happen?

You have this agenda against Piuncey and that's OK but acting like the only way to make moves is to get rid of your best players is crazy talk.

and Talib isn't the reason we lost to Denver.

Pretty sure it was Roby who poked the ball out of Toussaints hands.

Steeler wide receivers caught all of two passes for a total of 17 yards on Talib that day.
Gay gave up around in 59 in 4 catches just to E Sanders.

Pretty sure if Talib were a Steeler it might have made a difference.