Velasco to IR

[Ernie]

they try, but they don't game plan. Big difference.

getting your a$$ kicked is getting your a$$ kicked.. regardless

Not much game planning involved in getting ran over.

[Ernie]

I can't say that I disagree with the initial post. Pouncey was a REALLY good rookie. But is he a top notch veteran center? I don't think so. I've seen both Legursky and Velasko replace Pouncey will little to no drop off.

That isn't a coincidence. I would be hesitant to give Pouncey a big time contract considering I've seen 2 backups replace him relatively easily. Pouncey biggest problem is strength and power and he hasn't improved that in the slightest since his rookie year.

plus 1.....

[Ernie]

I love the all-pro argument for why he is so good. You do know how a player makes all-pro, don't you? It is voted on by a panel of sports writers. How many of those writers do you think watch each team's Oline and analyze their play? How many are even capable of that? I would think that it is more likely that most of their OL analysis comes from watching football on the weekend and Monday night, and listening to the talking heads.

Pouncey's rookie year also coincided with several prime time games for the Steelers. Every time you watched them that season, he was talked up huge, as is typical in games like this. You hear a lot of hyperbole on Sunday and Monday night, it is not just Pouncey. It was a nice story for a franchise that has a great tradition at center. You would not hear "this kid is having a good rookie campaign", you would hear "Pittsburgh has not seen this kind of play at center since the like of Webster and Dawson" every couple of weeks, all year long. It is what these guys do.

After that, there are no stats and highlights to go by, so every year they are more likely to vote for the guy they know, and center is probably one position that rarely has a new guy come along to knock the last guy out of your thought process.

And for the record, I am stating that it is not by high expectations that make him look like he is not playing as good. It is has been his play. Velasco has played at least as good as Pouncey, and that is not because I had low expectations. It is because I have not seen him get abused by defensive linemen like Pouncey has.

You hit the nail on the head.

[NorthCoast]

Looking at this convinces me there is not a lot of difference between the two. and keep in mind Velasco switched positions during his career while Pouncey has play the same position since college:

Career Offensive Line Stats - Velasco Year Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks Allwd Yds 2009 Ten 1 0.00 0.00 2010 Ten 16 3 3 30 3 0.00 0.00 2011 Ten 16 1 9 0.00 0.00 2012 Ten 16 16 4 25 3 1 1.00 0.00 2013 Pit 11 11 1 10 2.00 12.50 Totals 60 30 9 74 3 4 3.00 12.50
Career Offensive Line Stats - Pouncey Year Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks Allwd Yds 2010 Pit 16 16 1 7 1 3.00 24.00 2011 Pit 14 14 3 35 2 2.50 18.00 2012 Pit 15 15 2 10 2 3.75 22.00 2013 Pit 1 1 0.00 0.00 Totals 46 46 6 52 2 3 9.25 64.00

[feltdizz]

That doesn't tell me anything at all... lol. Velasco had no sacks until he played with us which isn't surprisingbecause Ben takes sacks where modt QB's will chuck it out of bounds or check down.

The only thing that pops out to me is games started... Velasco has only started 30 games even though he played in 60.

[NorthCoast]

That doesn't tell me anything at all... lol. Velasco had no sacks until he played with us which isn't surprisingbecause Ben takes sacks where modt QB's will chuck it out of bounds or check down.

The only thing that pops out to me is games started... Velasco has only started 30 games even though he played in 60.

Considering he was an undrafted FA, tells me he made vast improvement in his game. Titans thought enough of Velasco to give him a 2nd round tender. I'll give that Pouncey had no where to go but down considering where he started his career. It may all be moot if neither recovers completely from their injuries in the next year.

[Ernie]

thanks for posting Northcoast. Looks like we may have you converted dizz... lol

looking at the 30/60...I guess it took velasco a year or two to develop... as is often the case. I guess it could be said that the man has made the most of his abilities.

[feltdizz]

Considering he was an undrafted FA, tells me he made vast improvement in his game. Titans thought enough of Velasco to give him a 2nd round tender. I'll give that Pouncey had no where to go but down considering where he started his career. It may all be moot if neither recovers completely from their injuries in the next year.

I agree on the injuries but I don't really care about the tender or where Velasco started his career. I don't have a problem with Velasco as a player but I don't see him replacing Pouncey if both are healthy.

[feltdizz]

thanks for posting Northcoast. Looks like we may have you converted dizz... lol.

This doesn't make any sense at all...

[Captain Lemming]

That doesn't tell me anything at all... lol. Velasco had no sacks until he played with us which isn't surprisingbecause Ben takes sacks where modt QB's will chuck it out of bounds or check down.

The only thing that pops out to me is games started... Velasco has only started 30 games even though he played in 60.

My issue with Pouncey is that we have had ZERO confidence in our interior run game during MOST of his time as a Steeler.
Dizz, by what measure is Pouncey as great as people think?
Sure he can move, I saw it when he was a rookie. He flashes that ability every once in awhile.
But what does he do consistently, game in and game out that is BETTER than his peers?
Pass block? No.
Run block? Definite NO.

You are right about Velasco. He HAS only started half his games played. He is not a great center. Neither is Legurski.

My point is that the fact that THOSE GUYS can replace him with such ease, and NO noticeable dropoff only adds to the case that Pouncey aint all he is cracked up to be.

[feltdizz]

My issue with Pouncey is that we have had ZERO confidence in our interior run game during MOST of his time as a Steeler.
Dizz, by what measure is Pouncey as great as people think?
Sure he can move, I saw it when he was a rookie. He flashes that ability every once in awhile.
But what does he do consistently, game in and game out that is BETTER than his peers?
Pass block? No.
Run block? Definite NO.

You are right about Velasco. He HAS only started half his games played. He is not a great center. Neither is Legurski.

My point is that the fact that THOSE GUYS can replace him with such ease, and NO noticeable dropoff only adds to the case that Pouncey aint all he is cracked up to be.

Pretty sure the measure is his peers... what else is there to go on when we had an OC who was vertical in the pass game, treated the run game like a step child and everyone knew where we were running every time due to predictability.

Our RB's last year were Redman and Dwyer... ohhh watch out for those 2 hitting the hole with speed.

DD was hurt in preseason last year and in previous years the OL injuries and musical chairs was far worse than this year. Oh... and how great is your interior running going to be with Kemo ignoring the guy in front of him. The guy could pull but couldn't do anything else.

2009 we ranked 19th in ypc
2010 .... 11th
2011 ... 14th
2012... 26th.... new OC, Redman and Dwyer.. yeah... why did we fall off? Pouncey? I dont think so. We also lost DD that year.

2013.. 31st. There is a drop off IMO and DD is healthy and Bell is far better than Redman and Dwyer. Bell is a rookie so I will give him the benefit that he will improve inside.

I have a hard time believing we don't have NO noticable drop off without Pouncey... I think its fun to say but if there was no drop off we would hear Legursky's name among the top centers and Velasco damn sure wouldnt be a cap casualty hit.

Velasco comes in for 7 or 8 games and its a wrap? nah... too small of a sample size IMO.

[NorthCoast]

.......and in previous years the OL injuries and musical chairs was far worse than this year.......

this is not true. In fact, this year is the worst by far for OL injuries and missed PT:
[URL]http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/12/1/5162458/nfl-injured-reserve-ir-list-count-amount-totals-by-team-2013[/URL]

btw, I respect your opinion on Pouncey and if you are correct, we should hopefully see good things from him again next season (unless he is expecting a Brinks to deliver his next contract, in which case I would think it would cause the Steelers to rethink his value).

[Shoe]

This sounds a lot like the Chris Hoke/Casey Hampton argument

The Hoke argument had more legs IMO, because it actually had its own body of work. (First of all, saying Legursky "replaced" Pouncey with no drop-off is ridiculous. He filled in for him in one or two games!)

In the end, the team backed up the Brinks truck for Hampton and got a very good career out of him; and Hoke (despite his amazing record replacing Hampton) never got a team... any team... to offer him a comparable (to Hampton's) deal. Why is that?

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

Velasco showed he is a very good football player...But Velasco is no Pouncey. Fernando Velasco was a blessing for the Steelers & signing him helped absorb the absence of Pouncey. Don't simply credit the better OL play to Velasco as the season went on. He was an absolute part of it...But the OL grew as a unit. The same would have happened with Pouncey in there. This was a new unit that needed to log snaps together to get better with Pouncey. Velasco helped solidify the unit...A different player may have shown the importance of Pouncey. Don't disregard that! It is easy to dismiss a missing piece but don't think the missing piece wouldn't have the same impact. Many can argue if Pouncey is worth the money he will command but no arguing the talent level isn't the same. Pouncey will be 25 & Velasco will be 29...Velasco would make a great addition next year as Pouncey's back-up. Velasco has position flexibility so it makes sense. It is an unfortunate injury to Velasco but the injury may limit his opportunities & returning to the Steelers is more likely now.

[steelz09]

Velasco showed he is a very good football player...But Velasco is no Pouncey. Fernando Velasco was a blessing for the Steelers & signing him helped absorb the absence of Pouncey. Don't simply credit the better OL play to Velasco as the season went on. He was an absolute part of it...But the OL grew as a unit. The same would have happened with Pouncey in there. This was a new unit that needed to log snaps together to get better with Pouncey. Velasco helped solidify the unit...A different player may have shown the importance of Pouncey. Don't disregard that! It is easy to dismiss a missing piece but don't think the missing piece wouldn't have the same impact. Many can argue if Pouncey is worth the money he will command but no arguing the talent level isn't the same. Pouncey will be 25 & Velasco will be 29...Velasco would make a great addition next year as Pouncey's back-up. Velasco has position flexibility so it makes sense. It is an unfortunate injury to Velasco but the injury may limit his opportunities & returning to the Steelers is more likely now.

IMO, Pouncey has ALL the tools except just a bit more size/strength. He always has struggled against the bigger/strong NTs.

But it's been that way since his rookie year and I haven't seen any improvement.

What I don'nt understand is we've seen little to no drop off with Velasco and Legursky when Pouncey went down with injuries. 2 times is a trend. How can you justify big bucks to Pouncey when you've seen 2 backups replace him adequately? I don't know. I think it's a difficult scenario....It greatly depends on the Pouceny's contract demands.

Scott Wells is the highest paid center in 2013. Would you give Pouceny the same contract that Scott Wells received?

4 years / 25.5 million
4 million signing bonus
Average Salary: 6.375
Guaranteed: 13 million

Would you give Pouncey a 5 year / 30 million deal?

What if you got Velasco for less than half that amount of $ which would give you a good chunk of change to go out and pick up a solid FA to fill a critical need such as FS?