Jarvis Jones

[DukieBoy]

[QUOTE=feltdizz;589105]Dukie... It comes down to youth and scheme. When I watch Carolina and Seattle I see swagger, I see players having fun, I see defenses attacking and blitzing DB's and I see players winning one on ones and gang tackling.

When I watch our D I see old knees... players choosing to stand next to a pile instead of jumping in to finish tackles. I see our DB's 7 yards off the ball chasing players instead of chasingor playing the ball. I see a D trying to trick the other team instead of beating up the other team. The biggest problem is watching players play a step slow because they are thinking instead of reacting.

I'm not a Lebeau hater...I just think the philosophy we were forced to use this year needs to be used EVERY YEAR. Our rookies and 2nd year players need meaningful snaps and it shouldn't be due to injuries or old heads finally retiring.

The patience we used with young players isn't sustainable in this new NFL. Everyoneon here knew Heyward was better than Hood... everyone on here probably would have given Keenan Lewis another shot after his brain fart in the preseason. The punishment for him was too severe given our CB issues.



There is no freaking way anyone could convince me all that game he has shownthis yearand last wasnt obvious in practice a yearor 2 earlier. We should have locked him up a year earlier.

I won't be surprised if Worilds leaves this offseason because a new team will play him all day every day and turn him loose. These kids have a limited time to make some money... they aren't going to stick with usif we stick with an outdated philosophy[/QUOTE


Well stated, Dizz. Thanks.

[NorthCoast]

The key to playing D in today's game is having physical DBs who can intimidate, knock WRs off of routes, come up and play the run. That coupled with a fierce pass rush. When you have those things, it knocks an O out of rythym...and guys like Manning don't have an answer. Yes, they will exploit the deep ball from time to time, but it beats having a team control the clock and the rhythm of the game.

Seems to me you are describing a type of player, "physical DBs who can intimidate". Since those don't exist on the Steelers, they are playing the 10 yd cushion. Can't fault LeBeau for trying to adjust to their talent.

So far all that physicality, that defense is giving up nearly a first down on every pass attempt. Welcome to the new NFL. WRs are bigger, TEs are faster.

[feltdizz]

I agree to a point but it seems like you think Lewis left because of defensive philosophy? That's where you lose me. I think he left because he wanted to go back to N.O.

I think Lewis left because he was benched 2 years ago and because of our philoshy. If we didnt make an example out of him during that preseason game I think he gets more reps, shows more and we extend him or begin talks earlier and he stays.

Lewis is at fault for his ouburst in the preseason but lets not act like this is the first time a Steeler got a penalty for losing his cool.

It is what it is.... but it burns slow because I watched Lewis ball hard last night.

[feltdizz]

Seems to me you are describing a type of player, "physical DBs who can intimidate". Since those don't exist on the Steelers, they are playing the 10 yd cushion. Can't fault LeBeau for trying to adjust to their talent.

So far all that physicality, that defense is giving up nearly a first down on every pass attempt. Welcome to the new NFL. WRs are bigger, TEs are faster.

You know damn well we have the DB's we have because it fits Lebeaus scheme. The cushion is part of the scheme. We played more press lately, probably due to Lake being able to help translate the DL code, but overall we play the cushion because its our scheme. Lebeau isnt adjusting to talent..., the talent either adjust to his model or they ride the pine.

Seattle may give up 10 yards but they dont give up points and they snatch a ton of passes out of the air.

I can't believe you are trying to push that stat... smh.

[Ernie]

I think Lewis left because he was benched 2 years ago and because of our philoshy. If we didnt make an example out of him during that preseason game I think he gets more reps, shows more and we extend him or begin talks earlier and he stays.

Lewis is at fault for his ouburst in the preseason but lets not act like this is the first time a Steeler got a penalty for losing his cool.

It is what it is.... but it burns slow because I watched Lewis ball hard last night.

Yea dizz... it hurts... because he is better than anything on our roster right now.

[DukieBoy]

Sorry... its hard to let go of the Keenan situation when our DBs are old as hell. LOL...

We played young guys this year because we held onto old heads too long. Its a known fact that our D is far more complex than most in the NFL. I'm psyched as well but my concern is moving forward. Will we speed up our process with young guys or stick with the same formula?

The reason I keep bringing up Lewis is because we NEVER used to let that happen. Vrabel and Woodson were the only guys we missed on D early on and Vrabel played for a cheating team. We missed on Lewis and we will continue to miss if we keep the same philosophy.

There once was alot of negative talk on the board about Keenan Lewis, calling him a bust. Heard the same on a board a longer time ago about Troy. And other players were called busts early because they either were not playing or when they did play they made mistakes or misplays. I myself was criitcal of Worilds (wrongly in retrospect) and our draft of him when Lee was still on the board. I have also been critical of Tomlin and the coaching staff for not developing players and not using them effectively. I thought Mendenhall was a coaching failure. Could be that Sweed was also, IMO. Hard to develop young players if they don't play much. Not playing much early must have impeded Keenan's development. Not playing much and playing out of his best position affected the development of Worilds. Losing Lewis hurt us. It will hurt us if we lose Worilds. The young ones have to play regularly, in situations simple enough to be understandable and do-able, and to play positions consistent with their strengths. I think our coaching staff must improve in its development of young players, and they have to play more that special teams in order to develop.

[Shoe]

It is a tricky situation but I think you always go younger...

its a young mans game. Going old has bit us in the azz the last few years.

We drafted these guys for a reason... you can't keep playing it safe with older guys and hope for 10 games. If we continue to shed young talent we will become the Pittsburgh Pirates of the NFL on D.

I agree (keep your young talent). But this is where you have to trust yourself, and your scouting, and they didn't do that. They could use that lack of production to their advantage (from Lewis and Worilds in their first 3 years). They could've inked them to reasonable deals, with confidence in their scouting, watching the player every day in practice, in the facility, etc.

Instead, they Lewis and Worilds play out the final year of their contract--and they priced themselves out of the dealings. TBH, I have no problem with them doing that (it does hurt seeing young talent develop and move on)... but they have to stick to their guns. They did that with Lewis (not even offering a contract).

What you can't do now, is drive the market up on yourself, forcing yourself to pay more. It is like going shopping for pants... seeing a great pair of pants on sale... instead of buying it then, waiting for it to go back to regular price... and then buying.

[NorthCoast]

You know damn well we have the DB's we have because it fits Lebeaus scheme. The cushion is part of the scheme. We played more press lately, probably due to Lake being able to help translate the DL code, but overall we play the cushion because its our scheme. Lebeau isnt adjusting to talent..., the talent either adjust to his model or they ride the pine.

Seattle may give up 10 yards but they dont give up points and they snatch a ton of passes out of the air.

I can't believe you are trying to push that stat... smh.

OK. Let's talk about the all-important scoring defense.
This was the first year DL's defense was not top 10 in scoring defense..... so yeah, let's scrap something that has worked over the last decade and actually was very good last year (#5). Guess where those great Seahawks were in 2011? Behind the Steelers. And how about 2010?? yeah, that great Seahawk defense was 26 in scoring defense.

Bottomline, no matter how much fans complain, it won't change and doesn't need to. Point is all teams go through cycles. The Steelers are in a restocking mode but it is no reason to change what works.

[Ernie]

OK. Let's talk about the all-important scoring defense.
This was the first year DL's defense was not top 10 in scoring defense..... so yeah, let's scrap something that has worked over the last decade and actually was very good last year (#5). Guess where those great Seahawks were in 2011? Behind the Steelers. And how about 2010?? yeah, that great Seahawk defense was 26 in scoring defense.

Bottomline, no matter how much fans complain, it won't change and doesn't need to. Point is all teams go through cycles. The Steelers are in a restocking mode but it is no reason to change what works.

Most of us know that we are as you said "In re-stocking mode".. as has been stated before, the FO took a gamble with overpaying some of the older guys, holding out for that last SB run.. needless to say, it ended up biting us.

The quicker the FO realizes that, the sooner we start keeping guys like K. Lewis and letting guys like Ike Taylor go.

[BURGH86STEEL]

Its about putting younger players on the field earlier... it can be done. It has to be done to compete in this new NFL. We can't stick to the old model when the rules and game have changed rapidly over the last few years.

If you combine FA, offensive slanted rules and how hard it isto keep a D together whythe hell would anyone want to keep a scheme that benches most of our young guys due to the steep learning curve?

The game in college has changed as well... moving forward I think it would make more sense to scale things back so these kids get reps earlier and more often so we can keep up with the new rules and CBA rookie contracts.

The coaches put young players on the field every year. How long those young players remain on the field is based on how well they perform and adjust to the speed & complexities of the game at the NFL level.

[feltdizz]

OK. Let's talk about the all-important scoring defense.
This was the first year DL's defense was not top 10 in scoring defense..... so yeah, let's scrap something that has worked over the last decade and actually was very good last year (#5). Guess where those great Seahawks were in 2011? Behind the Steelers. And how about 2010?? yeah, that great Seahawk defense was 26 in scoring defense.

Bottomline, no matter how much fans complain, it won't change and doesn't need to. Point is all teams go through cycles. The Steelers are in a restocking mode but it is no reason to change what works.

Who cares about where we were a few years ago.. where are we now and how have we been trending?

I see a Seahawk D improving and a Steeler D falling off.

The CBA and new rules changed.... we were forced to change due to our cap. Moving forward we need to continue changing along with the NFL.

You said yourself its a passing league now, bigger WR and TEs, new rules that favor the O.... yet you want us to remain the same while witnessing our D fall off. If all that changed.... why not our philosophy when it comes to developing players?

We were forced to do it this year.... might as well accept reality and continue to adjust the D so youth continues to see the field earlier so we can make better moves retaining talent.

[NorthCoast]

Who cares about where we were a few years ago .. where are we now and how have we been trending?

I see a Seahawk D improving and a Steeler D falling off.

The CBA and new rules changed.... we were forced to change due to our cap. Moving forward we need to continue changing along with the NFL.

You said yourself its a passing league now, bigger WR and TEs, new rules that favor the O.... yet you want us to remain the same while witnessing our D fall off. If all that changed.... why not our philosophy when it comes to developing players?

We were forced to do it this year.... might as well accept reality and continue to adjust the D so youth continues to see the field earlier so we can make better moves retaining talent.

Please explain "falling off". by what measure? scoring defense?.... again last season #5. so yea, there is a 1 yr trend of falling off....

[feltdizz]

Please explain "falling off". by what measure? scoring defense?.... again last season #5. so yea, there is a 1 yr trend of falling off....

So I guess you are ignoring the whole remain the same while pointing out the game has changed..lol.

Anyway... why are you so hung up on one stat? When I say falling off I'm talking about:

The number of sacks and pressures diminishing.
The number of TO's diminishing.
The number of missed tackles exploding.
The number of 100 yard rushers increasing
The number of rushing TD's increasing
The number of 20, 40 and 50 yard plays increasing
Giving up 55 points to the Pats
No longer being feared or respected D
Onside kicking because we have no faith in our D

All of thos things... I dont give a crap about a few stats that can look good on paper because we shut out Cleveland or spanked the Bills. I'm talking about the eye test, the obvious things that anyone who knows a thing or 2 about football are willing to admit.

I know we used to have a great D... we used to be feared and respected but these last few years we have watched Tim Tebow shread us. Tennessee march down out throats on the ground, Da Raidas b!tch slap us... that is called falling off.

[flippy]

Calling JJ a bust is different than calling Troy a bust as an example. Even with Troy's mistakes, you could see flashes of brilliance early on. JJ, not so much. Even though he doesn't know the D, I woulda expect some sort of flashes as a pass rusher. He was supposed to be one of the premiere rushers in the draft and so far he's shown almost nothing.

While he hasn't shown any explosion or speed, I do think he's a hustler and can get stronger. And I'd seriously consider looking to move him inside a la Timmons who was also supposed to be a ROLB and a flop at that position, but still a solid ball player.

[NorthCoast]

Calling JJ a bust is different than calling Troy a bust as an example. Even with Troy's mistakes, you could see flashes of brilliance early on. JJ, not so much. Even though he doesn't know the D, I woulda expect some sort of flashes as a pass rusher. He was supposed to be one of the premiere rushers in the draft and so far he's shown almost nothing.

While he hasn't shown any explosion or speed, I do think he's a hustler and can get stronger. And I'd seriously consider looking to move him inside a la Timmons who was also supposed to be a ROLB and a flop at that position, but still a solid ball player.

I agree with every point. The 'flashes' from Jones were average plays any OLB should make. Hopefully he can grow into what he is supposed to be but if Jones can get stronger, he could pair nicely with Timmons inside. Imagine OLs trying to figure out which one is blitzing and which is out in coverage on a TE for example.