Anyone who thinks Tomlin or Colbert are going anywhere

[Dee Dub]

If you got off your soapbox for 2 seconds you would see that I stated in the start of this thread that I would like LeBeau to step aside so not sure how my glasses are rose colored. As far as the PROBABLY quote, without seeing their actual playbooks I can't tell you for sure on the first part, but spending most of my time at college campus's on weekends and looking at gametape I CAN TELL YOU FOR A FACT THAT THE WEEKLY INSTALL AND SUB PACKAGES IS NIGHT AND DAY BETWEEN COLLEGE AND PRO. i CAN ALSO TELL YOU THAT A PLAYER LIKE JARVIS JONES IS OVERWHELMED FROM AN ASSIGNMENT STANDPOINT. If you can't acknowledge that you know even less than I thought. As far as telling you the difference's not sure how you would like to go about that through this forum but if you would like to throw up plays or film I would
be glad to break them down for you from a positional assignment and coverage standpoint. Like I said, keep tending to your herd and leave football to those that know what's up.

By the way your boy Todd Grantham's D is getting torched for 30 plus a game.

This is exactly what I thought you would say. You talk and talk and talk yet absolutely no proof. You can say all you want about weekly install and sub packages is night and day between college and pro yet can not show me any proof of this nor can you show me any proof that there are major differences in the 3-4 hat LeBeau runs compared to what Saban runs. You would impress me if you could break down and explain the differences between the two 3-4's. But you can't. If you say you can break plays, positional assignments, and coverages, then you should be able to tell this forum what these major differences you claim there are between the 3-4 LeBeau runs and the 3-4 Saban runs.

But you can't. And just like a little kid who has been proven wrong and can't take it, you take a personal shot at me with the "By the way your boy Todd Grantham's D is getting torched for 30 plus a game" remark.

When did I ever say anything about me liking Grantham? I simply pointed out to you and feltdizz that he learned the 3-4 from Saban. How is he my boy? But I get it. You got showed up and now you want to lash out. Nice!

BTW, what you said about Grantham and his D getting torched for 30 plus a game, is another example of you not having a clue. He should be struggling this year since he lost 12 players who started for his defense last year.

What a shame.

[Eddie Spaghetti]

keep preaching dub.

always value your contributions.

[feltdizz]

Read this and tell me this isn't the exact same things that we see week in and week out with LeBeau and his 3-4.[URL="http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2013/june/17/alabamas-3-4-defense-d-line-basics"]

http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2013/june/17/alabamas-3-4-defense-d-line-basics[/URL]

You guys are amazing!! I get it you just can't see past your Black N Gold colored Steeler glasses. You have to have this image that LeBeau is this genius and no one else comes close to what he does. Hilarious!!

And if you watch Georgia football side by side with Alabama football, you will see the near same 3-4 run by both of them.

I would love for one person to have the balls to tell me all the differences there are from LeBeau's 3-4 and Saban's 3-4 (or Georgia's for that matter).

I guarantee this right here....no one here can do it. Not one. Why?...because there isnt that much of a difference.

I am calling anyone and everyone out right here and now. Prove it. Let's see who knows what around here. Talk is cheap.

My guess?????

Crickets.

Funny how SKL insists that there are major differences in the two yet states, "Steelers NFL D playbook is PROBABLY 3 times the size of Georgia's and weekly install of plays varies anywhere from 25-50%, whereas Georgia's is PROBABLY 5-10%".

Is it probably or is it that you really dont know?

And even funnier is how SKL and feltdizz make these claims and yet didn't eve know the connection that Georgia's defense has with Nick Saban.

They arent EXACTLY the same things we see every Sunday...

Everything else you are blabbing about is nonsense...the players in defense have talked about the size of the defensive playbook for years.

Quick question for you... do you REALLY KNOW or are YOU just blabbing at the mouth? Are you in the staff? In meetings?

I'm basing my opinion on years of players talking about how tricky and in depth this D is to learn. Pkauers like Deshea saying they had packages they've never used. Harrison being a beast but walking off the field in frustration, storied of the playbook being much bigger than the one on offense.... Now all of a sudden its all lies because JJ isn't up to speed?

...and I have no problem admitting I didnt know about the Saban connection because it has nothing to do with Jones play at Georgia. Plenty of coaches have a connection but only a fool would throw his name out 15 years later like he was the players head coach.

In closing... unless you can provide an EXACT list of why Georgia and the Steelers D is "nearly" the same I think you should pipe down.

[Dee Dub]

They arent EXACTLY the same things we see every Sunday...

Everything else you are blabbing about is nonsense...the players in defense have talked about the size of the defensive playbook for years.

Quick question for you... do you REALLY KNOW or are YOU just blabbing at the mouth? Are you in the staff? In meetings?

I'm basing my opinion on years of players talking about how tricky and in depth this D is to learn. Pkauers like Deshea saying they had packages they've never used. Harrison being a beast but walking off the field in frustration, storied of the playbook being much bigger than the one on offense.... Now all of a sudden its all lies because JJ isn't up to speed?

...and I have no problem admitting I didnt know about the Saban connection because it has nothing to do with Jones play at Georgia. Plenty of coaches have a connection but only a fool would throw his name out 15 years later like he was the players head coach.

In closing... unless you can provide an EXACT list of why Georgia and the Steelers D is "nearly" the same I think you should pipe down.

Ok you say these things because of what you have heard others say? But yet you yourself have no knowledge of this yourself? You can't give us specific examples?

I'll tell you what...anyone who has ever played the game of football at at least the high school level, can tell you that there isnt anything new that LeBeau is doing this season that he hasnt done in the past. All you have to do is watch these games and you can see for yourself if you know what you are looking for or at. There is only so many things you can do with a base 3-4 and same with a base 4-3. We have not seen one new wrinkle on either one of them in the past 40 years.

My point is, the base 3-4 run by the Steelers is similar to that of every other base 3-4 by anyone else. And this is why a guy like Jarvis Jones was able to come in on year 1 and contribute (as well as even start some games), like no other LB ever has in the history of the Steelers who have played in this 3-4.

But like I said, no one here or anywhere else can give a list of more than just few things that are different between LeBeau's 3-4 and Saban's 3-4. Of course there are variations and some different thoughts to it, but they are to their very core, similar.

[Slapstick]

Are Saban's and LeBeau's defenses similar? Sure. Both of the schemes use 2-gap defensive linemen....

But, Saban's team can practice what, 20 hours per week?

Not only has LeBeau run this 3-4 Zone Blitz for much longer than Saban has been in Alabama, he also has the time and opportunity to install many more packages and wrinkles than Saban does...

[Dee Dub]

Are Saban's and LeBeau's defenses similar? Sure. Both of the schemes use 2-gap defensive linemen....

But, Saban's team can practice what, 20 hours per week?

Not only has LeBeau run this 3-4 Zone Blitz for much longer than Saban has been in Alabama, he also has the time and opportunity to install many more packages and wrinkles than Saban does...

That's my point. They are similar. When I said that I was told you can't compare them. And that is not true. They are very comparable. But don't fool yourself Slap. There are only so many things you can do with the 3-4 or the 4-3. Like I said...we have not seen one new wrinkle to either one for these base defenses for 40 years. If you think because one has more time in the week to install more wrinkles/packages, tell me what those new wrinkles/packages are?

[feltdizz]

Ok you say these things because of what you have heard others say? But yet you yourself have no knowledge of this yourself? You can't give us specific examples?

I'll tell you what...anyone who has ever played the game of football at at least the high school level, can tell you that there isnt anything new that LeBeau is doing this season that he hasnt done in the past. All you have to do is watch these games and you can see for yourself if you know what you are looking for or at. There is only so many things you can do with a base 3-4 and same with a base 4-3. We have not seen one new wrinkle on either one of them in the past 40 years.

My point is, the base 3-4 run by the Steelers is similar to that of every other base 3-4 by anyone else. And this is why a guy like Jarvis Jones was able to come in on year 1 and contribute (as well as even start some games), like no other LB ever has in the history of the Steelers who have played in this 3-4.

But like I said, no one here or anywhere else can give a list of more than just few things that are different between LeBeau's 3-4 and Saban's 3-4. Of course there are variations and some different thoughts to it, but they are to their very core, similar.

Those other people are/were Steeler players...

No one is saying a 3-4 is something other than a 3-4 but the terminology, blitz packages, responsiblilities, drop coverages and assignments vary from what Jones learned at Georgia.

Jones started 1 or 2 games and went right back to the bench. He isn't at Georgia anymore and he probably has too much on his mind instead of going out and balling hard.

Ike Taylor said they may have 100 plays to defend a strategy, double calls on certain plays.... I'm paraphrasing because the story is on tribliv.

Troy to Shamarko "I'm not gonna lie to you. It took nearly a year to learn the play book. Boogie down to learn all the positions because it makes the job easier"

Shamarko said his first impression of the play book was " its big, I had to adjust to the wording"


How can you be a Steeler fan and act like you've never heard players talk about the complexity and size of our playbook?

[Shoe]

I would love for one person to have the balls to tell me all the differences there are from LeBeau's 3-4 and Saban's 3-4 (or Georgia's for that matter).

I guarantee this right here....no one here can do it. Not one. Why?...because there isnt that much of a difference.

I am calling anyone and everyone out right here and now. Prove it. Let's see who knows what around here. Talk is cheap.

My guess?????

Crickets.

I don't get how anyone here could prove the differences between the Steeler scheme and a college scheme, just as you couldn't prove the similarities. None of us has access to play-calls... and presumably, we all have jobs (and social activities). All we can offer is our opinions.

In my opinion, Jarvis Jones is struggling as much for the physical jump in competition as the mental (playbook) jump.

[feltdizz]

That's my point. They are similar. When I said that I was told you can't compare them. And that is not true. They are very comparable. But don't fool yourself Slap. There are only so many things you can do with the 3-4 or the 4-3. Like I said...we have not seen one new wrinkle to either one for these base defenses for 40 years. If you think because one has more time in the week to install more wrinkles/packages, tell me what those new wrinkles/packages are?

"I guess, in some ways, it's kind of like music," said the deep-thinking LeBeau, whose wide range of interests includes playing the guitar. "I mean, there is probably a finite number of ways in which you can arrange [musical] notes, right? But here we are, thousands of years into human history, and we haven't reached the end yet. Every year, there are thousands of songs written, and thousands of new combinations of notes. So I guess there's some limit to what we can do on defense.

"But we haven't reached it yet."

It is LeBeau's seemingly limitless variations on a theme, the manner in which the veteran coach orchestrates his game plans, that most excites his defenders.


Seriously... you need to stop Dub. None of us are in the room when DL is drawing up plays or putting in new wrinkles each game but players talk about it all the time. This year we arent doing those thingd because we dont have the personnel and its one of the reasons JJs is back on the bench.

[SteelBuckeye]

Funny thing ... I'm sitting here watching Stanford v Oregon .. and it occurs to me that David Shaw, HC at Stanford would be a perfect match for the Steelers. Offensive minded coach (OC for the entirety of Harbaugh's tenure at Stanford) who runs a system that has a nice mix of run and pass.
What interests me about this is seeing if some of the same people who rip Tomlin will rip this idea, and what their basis for doing so would be ... lol

[flippy]

I'll tell you what...anyone who has ever played the game of football at at least the high school level, can tell you that there isnt anything new that LeBeau is doing this season that he hasnt done in the past. All you have to do is watch these games and you can see for yourself if you know what you are looking for or at.

The DLine is trying to penetrate the LOS rather than control the gap this year. I think that's very different than our traditional system. And it's one of the main reasons (aside from our DLine's talent) that we can't stop the run. OGs are getting to Timmons/Williams and that's not something that we've seen consistently in the past.

Also we're seeing our SS used almost primarily as a LB and Clark often as the single high safety. And it seems like it's all the time. And I don't remember DL being so predictable.

I think we'd be better off if DL made one more change and went to a nickle as our base package to take McClendon and Williams off the field on 1st downs where we're consistently giving up big yardage. Or if not, I'd like to see what Fangupo could do in our base D on occasion because the guy is supposed to be as powerful as an ox and I think there's a chance he might be able to control the middle of the LOS a little better than McClendon.

I get what you're saying about 3-4's being 3-4's and comparable. But I also see DL doing things a little differently to try to adjust to the lack of talent. And I really do think he's a little screwed at this point with the players we have and their limitations. Sometimes, I think it's just impossible to scheme around bad play.

[steelerkeylargo]

Sit tight Dee Dub....I'm on my way back from the OU/Baylor game BUT I will give you everything you want!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dee Dub]

"I guess, in some ways, it's kind of like music," said the deep-thinking LeBeau, whose wide range of interests includes playing the guitar. "I mean, there is probably a finite number of ways in which you can arrange [musical] notes, right? But here we are, thousands of years into human history, and we haven't reached the end yet. Every year, there are thousands of songs written, and thousands of new combinations of notes. So I guess there's some limit to what we can do on defense.

"But we haven't reached it yet."

It is LeBeau's seemingly limitless variations on a theme, the manner in which the veteran coach orchestrates his game plans, that most excites his defenders.


Seriously... you need to stop Dub. None of us are in the room when DL is drawing up plays or putting in new wrinkles each game but players talk about it all the time. This year we arent doing those thingd because we dont have the personnel and its one of the reasons JJs is back on the bench.

I'm hearing a lot of talk from fans and players but still not hearing what all these new wrinkles are. Anyone with half a brain can see week in and week out, year in and year out, these are the same things over and over and over. But it sure sounds good dont it?

[Dee Dub]

Sit tight Dee Dub....I'm on my way back from the OU/Baylor game BUT I will give you everything you want!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't wait..............yawn. You will not show me anything that hasn't been done before.

[steelerkeylargo]

The original 3-4, was derived from the 5-2, it's what is called a "two-gap" system. The two-gap gained in popularity until the late 1980s, when the 4-3 Over defense stole the thunder away from it (thanks to the Miami Hurricanes and the Dallas Cowboys). It is a system where the defensive linemen, and usually at least two of the linebackers, have the responsibility to control two gaps on the line of scrimmage. The DL play what is called "read technique" and line up directly across from an offensive lineman, not slanted to one side as they are in other fronts like the 4-3. Linemen who play read techniques wait to read the block of the offensive lineman across from them to better determine the playcall from the offense and the direction the ball is going to go. They tend to be bulkier and heavier players, because they are taking on their offensive counterpart head-on during every play. They want to keep those linemen tied up on the line of scrimmage and allow the linebackers to make the plays. This also makes it difficult for an OL to get an angle on a defender. Speed is not a requisite to play DL in a two-gap system, though the initial step is always a plus for DL.
Two-gap linemen, because of their added size and lack of speed, are rather poor pass rushers in general. They rarely get the same level of technique work in pass rushing, and tend to be bull rushers on pass plays. Their primary responsibility then becomes to maintain the pocket and push their offensive opponent into the QB. If the QB steps up, he should step right into their grasp. Two-gap teams also blitz a bit less, and are more of a "read & react" style of defense. This design makes it easier to drop eight men into coverage and prevent big plays as well.
One has to realize that against the offensive schemes of the time, which were all what we would call "pro-style" in today’s terminology, were primarily run-based offenses. Downfield passing was being developed in the NFL, which spurred the switch from the 5-2 to 3-4, but games of 30-40 pass attempts were not as commonplace (excepting a few teams or the AFL) as they are now. Player size was nowhere close to what we see now in football and finding the big planet-sized guys was a problem. Having your linemen play read techniques and keeping linebackers closer to the line of scrimmage made perfect sense.
As you are forced to drop the linebackers into coverage more and more, you are forced to pull them back from the line of scrimmage in their initial alignment. Doing so can open up holes in the running game and hurt your pass rush. This, along with the success of Jimmy Johnson’s defense in Miami and later Dallas, spurred development of the 4-3 fronts.
It was apparent that the read & reacting two-gap 3-4 had lost its edge. Single-gap 4-3 took the crown in football because it allowed you to teach defensive linemen less and put their speed to good use. Because they have only one gap to control, they could rush the passers, who were now beginning to throw more often, without regard for keeping the OL tied up and the LBs free. 4-3 linemen all are tasked with getting the QB sacked, 3-4 linemen of the time were not.
So now the question becomes "Why is the 4-3 losing favor now?" and "How did the one-gap 3-4 take its place?"
4-man fronts require two interior linemen with the same skill set as 3-4 linemen. That is not the issue. The big problem is finding the prototypical 4-3 defensive end. He needs to be tall, big enough to take on an offensive tackle, and fast enough to get off the edge quicker than his opponent. The NFL prototype would be 6’5" and 280lbs, while being able to run a 4.7 40. That’s hard to find. Once you do, he’s hard to pay in the NFL with cap restrictions. You need two of them to play a 4-man front properly. It is much easier to find a guy 6’2-6’3" 245 and put him at JACK, yet blitz him enough to get adequate pass rush. Note that this does not mean a 3-4 coach would not like to have the prototypical 4-3 DE, just that he’s harder to find.
Another reason is the success of the spread offense in college football and the flexibility the 3-4 allows in attacking it. With more and more teams in college incorporating spread formations and concepts, 4-3 teams find themselves with a big problem: what do you do against 4/5 WR sets? If you play 4-3, you either walk a linebacker out on slot receivers, bring the safeties down and play true man/man, or you have to go to a Nickel or Dime defense. With 4 men on the line at all times, and multiple WRs to cover on every play, you cannot do as much as a defensive coordinator to confuse the offense. Once you’ve walked out the linebackers, who helps on run support? If your DL doesn’t get the RB or someone misses their gap, there is no safety net of linebackers there to help. This is why some teams, namely South Carolina and TCU, base out of 4-2-5 packages. It is easier to adjust the scheme when you recruit the extra speed and numbers for an extra safety position.

Additionally, the rise of the zone blitz in the 1990s under Dick LeBeau and Dom Capers in Pittsburgh aided in the complexity of the 3-4 against the passing game. With 4 possible blitzers, you could blitz a new linebacker on every play and send him through a different gap each time. That forces the offense to scheme for each of those possibilities – adding complexity to the offensive coach without creating an inordinate amount of material to teach the defenders.
This, combined with the rise of the spread, is why Nick Saban switched from the 4-3 base he used at LSU in the early 2000s to the (predominantly) 3-4 base he runs at Alabama, though his is a bit more of a hybrid than a true 3-4. He has 4 linebackers to play with on every snap. Even if he has to walk someone out, he still has 3 – enough to shift and remain sound against the run. He can play his match zone defense, which is safer against the pass, and still get sufficient pass rush and confuse the college QB thanks to the zone blitz.
In the one-gap 3-4, you have a blend of the 4-3 and the older two-gap system. As the recruiter or NFL scout, you don’t have to find the prototype DE. You can take a guy that is a ‘tweener’ and put him at DE or LB. You can take heavy interior linemen that are skilled at pass rushing, and put them at DE positions even if they don’t run 4.6-4.7 in the 40. The fact that it is a one-gap system and easier to teach means they can rush the passer without regard for the linebackers and put what talent they do have to good use. With the multiple blitzers and blitz angles on top of that, one can see that this can become a bear for offensive coaches to deal with.
I am not advocating the one-gap 3-4 defense over the 4-3, each can be used successfully and one is not "better" than the other in general. 3-4 coaches will showcase the same fronts as 4-3 coaches; it is just that they are doing it with different players who may have slightly different abilities. Often, a one-gap 3-4 team will be blitzing one outside LB on every play anyway, effectively making it a 4-3 against the pass. Fans get tied up with old stereotypes about different schemes too much. A coach can win no matter what scheme he uses, so long as he can communicate it and effectively use the talent he possesses.