Anyone who thinks Tomlin or Colbert are going anywhere

[SteelBuckeye]

With regard to Haley: Anyone here think that coaching is a learning experience unto itself? i.e. You aren't the coach you were five years ago? (Presumably, you have gotten better?)

And given that, since we've invested two years now into Haley, we should look to continue along--instead of changing course, hiring a new OC, and the players having to adapt again? That is what bad teams do.

I mean presumably, those who want Haley gone, also want a change in offensive philosophy (different system). How long before our team grasps that? And how many years do we have in Ben, that we want to blow on him and the offense learning a new system?

Think back to Coughlin way back when, as an example of a coach "improving" or adapting. He had strict rules, in terms of being on time, etc. The GIANTS bristled against it, and the team suffered. But it was only until Coughlin was willing to be more accomodating (of the pro game), that we saw the GIANTS become the team they did. He learned.

I think Haley should be given that opportunity too (and I think he's taken it, to a degree).

Remember Ray Sherman? I wouldn't have given that guy another two years to "mature as a coach" ... Heck, at least he had the character to realize he wasn't accomplishing what he was hired to do ... That said, there has been "some" improvement with implementing Haley's scheme ... tough call ... I think that given where this team is (young and with questionable talent), if an OC came along that I believed was a better candidate to lead this offense, I'd think hard and maybe not so long about replacing Haley.

[steelerkeylargo]

yup.......................

[DukieBoy]

It is a bit difficult to here them on the Sunday night Saints vs Cowpies game talk about Shawn Lee being widely recognized as perhaps the best inside linebacker in the NFL, and to remember that we passed him by in favor of Tomlin's Worilds project.

[SteelBuckeye]

dead-horse.jpg

seriously ...

[Dee Dub]

Uhhh...you might want to go back and read...he was talking about Grantham, not Saban....

But thanks for the very thorough explanation of Saban's coverages. I have learned a bit from reading this thread.

Uhhhh...you might want to go back and read....this is how it went down..

Originally Posted by steelerkeylargo[URL="http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=581546#post581546"][/URL]The kid is being asked to grasp an incredibly complex D (which is where his "problems with assignments" arise). All he had to do in college is go get the QB. Rarely does an OLB come in and contribute in all phases and packages in this league. He is being asked to play a majority of the snaps because of his talent and ability to cause chaos. However he is experiencing paralyzation by analyzation . Turn him lose and let him do what he does best. Let him learn the nuances over time.



And then I said.....


I do not believe this current 3-4 is all that much more complex than the one he played at for Georgia. This is a total misconception. And the solution to then ask him in year 2 of his pro career to then change position and learn a new defense is not much of one at all.

Georgia's D-coordinator Todd Grantham runs nearly the same one he learned under Nick Saban.

But SKL seems to have the same reading comprehensions as you do. He tried to tell us all that you cannot compare Georgia's 3-4 to that of the Steelers the 3-4. It is far to complex than the college 3-4 he suggested. He then added that the college 3-4's typically uses a vanilla coverage behind a 1 gap technique front. This was way out the side of his neck!

And that is when came back and told him this was not true and showed proof that they run a two gap 3-4. I added the coverage they use which shows that they are far from vanilla.

[Dee Dub]

The fact of the matter is this thread got derailed by YOU (because thats what you do) over my belief that Jarvis Jones is not up to speed with LeBeau's schemes. It has nothing to do with "middle of the field safety coverage". I don't care what Nick Saban does at Alabama (just because they coached on the same staff 15 years ago doesn't mean their playbooks are EXACTLY the same). I am talking about Georgia and Todd Grantham. You can cut and paste articles all you want from things you read online. I am talking about what I see from tape and the program that Grantham/Richt run at Georgia (in particular relating to the LBer play from the rush LB spot that Jarvis Jones played and what they ask from that position. I could care less about "middle of the field safety coverage" The bottom line is that if Jones was up to speed he would not be still splitting time with Worilds in situational football. Don't give me the concussion crap either!!! You basically told me I don't know football,and don't know the differences between variations of the 3-4, which is what I have done my whole life. You are a blowhard that does nothing but read articles online posted by amateurs and start threads that "toot your own horn. Anyone who knows me on here knows that I don't get confrontational with anyone and mostly only talk about player evaluation and moves i feel(or have heard) the Steelers should/will make. You are a gasbag who ALWAYS contradicts everything I say. If I say the sky is blue you say no it's not. You always dig up 2 year old posts that say "look at me I told you this would would happen", funny how you never dig up all the utter crap that you post like Matt Barkley is the man or Rahim Moore or Alameda Ta'amu should be our first round pick!!" I have zero time for your nonsense and twisting of facts. Have a nice life and I'm done with you. I am sure some will continue to stroke your ego, but not me.

Dude you were wrong. Neither Alabama nor Georgia run a 1 gap technique 3-4 and neither do either one of them play a vanilla coverage behind it. Pasting articles or parts of playbooks that are online are to show facts that substantiate the truth. The truth that shows what your opinion, or how he see it on tape, is flat out wrong!!
I never said that Alabama and Georgia's playbooks on defense are the same. What I have said is, their 3-4 arevery similar. Same with the Steeers 3-4. If you say that Alabama and Georgia runs a 1 gap technique 3-4 based on what you see on tape, yet they come out and say they run a 2 gap technique and break down how they do it, means you are wrong, and two, maybe you dont understand what it is you are seeing??

I like how you try to muddle what I post. Like a magician and the slight of hand trick. You're right, the "middle of the field safety coverage", has nothing to do with what Jarvis Jones. You added that to him. I didnt. It was to counter your claim that Alabama and Georgia run a vanilla coverage behind their front 7. I get you SKL. I know what you are all about. I have never once called you a name or attacked you personally. Yet you call me a blow hard and continue to throw what you think are complete misses on some players who have actually only been in the league 1 or 2 years.

You are childish. If I prove you wrong, you resort to this. Think about it. Who is the one with the ego problem? More like, "crushed ego" problem?

I for one would like to hear you give your first ever analysis of a pro prospect. No, not what scouts have told you while you are hanging on their legs at the Senior Bowl every year. But what you yourself think and know. Let's see you put it out there every year without having to ask scouts what they think. See how you stand up against the PlanetSteelers firing squad every year.

[Slapstick]

Todd Grantham's 3-4 might have just as much in common with Romeo Crennel's 3-4 that he learned in Cleveland...which would make sense, as both Saban and Crennel learned the 3-4 from Belichick...

Both of which are different from Dick LeBeau's 3-4...

[steelerkeylargo]

Dude you were wrong. Neither Alabama nor Georgia run a 1 gap technique 3-4 and neither do either one of them play a vanilla coverage behind it. Pasting articles or parts of playbooks that are online are to show facts that substantiate the truth. The truth that shows what your opinion, or how he see it on tape, is flat out wrong!!
I never said that Alabama and Georgia's playbooks on defense are the same. What I have said is, their 3-4 arevery similar. Same with the Steeers 3-4. If you say that Alabama and Georgia runs a 1 gap technique 3-4 based on what you see on tape, yet they come out and say they run a 2 gap technique and break down how they do it, means you are wrong, and two, maybe you dont understand what it is you are seeing??

I like how you try to muddle what I post. Like a magician and the slight of hand trick. You're right, the "middle of the field safety coverage", has nothing to do with what Jarvis Jones. You added that to him. I didnt. It was to counter your claim that Alabama and Georgia run a vanilla coverage behind their front 7. I get you SKL. I know what you are all about. I have never once called you a name or attacked you personally. Yet you call me a blow hard and continue to throw what you think are complete misses on some players who have actually only been in the league 1 or 2 years.

You are childish. If I prove you wrong, you resort to this. Think about it. Who is the one with the ego problem? More like, "crushed ego" problem?

I for one would like to hear you give your first ever analysis of a pro prospect. No, not what scouts have told you while you are hanging on their legs at the Senior Bowl every year. But what you yourself think and know. Let's see you put it out there every year without having to ask scouts what they think. See how you stand up against the PlanetSteelers firing squad every year.

You are out of control. STOP with ALABAMA crap, the point was about Jones and the GEORGIA football team. He did not play ball for Nick Saban. You talk about slight of hand all you do is muddle the conversation with crap that was never referenced. What did I add to Jarvis Jones? Safety coverage schemes? As far as my not posting a player evaluation I have posted dozens of them on here over the years. I used to do it for a living. First ever? What world do you live in? What Planet Steelers firing squad? Like I said I'm done with you. By the way you may have noticed how Worilds played most of the game yesterday. Must be that nagging concussion Jones has.

[feltdizz]

The "PlanetSteelers firing squad"

hahahaha!!!

[Dee Dub]

You are out of control. STOP with ALABAMA crap, the point was about Jones and the GEORGIA football team. He did not play ball for Nick Saban. You talk about slight of hand all you do is muddle the conversation with crap that was never referenced. What did I add to Jarvis Jones? Safety coverage schemes? As far as my not posting a player evaluation I have posted dozens of them on here over the years. I used to do it for a living. First ever? What world do you live in? What Planet Steelers firing squad? Like I said I'm done with you. By the way you may have noticed how Worilds played most of the game yesterday. Must be that nagging concussion Jones has.

How many times do I have to say it? There is only so many things you can do with a 3-4. If you run a two gap 3-4 zone blitz, they are going to be similar nearly across the board. Georgia and Grantham run nearly the same defense as Saban, who he learned it from. Same thing with LeBeau and his 3-4. And if you dont believe me and insist that I am wrong, then prove it.

Show me all these things that you seem to think are so different.

I have shown you their philosophy. I have shown you their fronts. I have shown you their gap responsibilities. I have shown you their blitzes. I have shown you their coverages.

So what is so different?

Explain it. Shouldn't be so hard since it is your job/life.

Guess what?

You can't

[steelerkeylargo]

Todd Grantham and One-Gap Nose Tackle in the 3-4
Pelini's 4-3 nose approach is similar to Grantham's 3-4 nose approach. In Pelini's scheme, the NT isn't a typical two-gap player; he's a DT lined up as a 1-tech instead of a 2-tech or a 3-tech. As a result, the NT doesn't have to be a two-gap player. Instead, he gets to challenge a single gap, which allows him to get more consistent penetration and generally cause havoc. That's the theory behind Grantham's take on the 3-4:
[URL="http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/559755/one-gap_203-4_20nt.jpg"][/URL]
Note that the NT in this formation doesn't actually line up as a 0-tech; he's instead slightly offset at the strongside 1-tech. (He doesn't necessarily have to be there, but it's easier for illustrative purposes.) Because he's moved directly off center, he can easier challenge a single gap instead of the typical two-gap approach, meaning he'd go to either the left or right of center instead of right at him. That in turn forces the offense to respond differently than they would against a two-gap NT, and it's similar to how an offensive line copes with a DT in a 4-3. In addition, shifting the NT to a 1-tech in essenceforces the side that needs to double. Because the NT in the example above is shifted slightly, the left guard and center have to combine on the block (the right guard will never make it over there), and good things happen.
What kind of good things happen? Instead of being reliant on your NT soaking up two interior linemen, he directly threatens a gap, which in turn forces a hard response from the offensive line. The defensive end keeps the other guy on the line occupied, and the MLB on that side doesn't have to deal with any blockers. That means the MLB coming in gets to clean up the mess, and if he doesn't, then the OLB on that side gets to.
There's more than just that, though. Shifting the NT to single-gap allows you to do things like stunts, full-side overload blitzes (for example, in the above diagram the TE cannot release into his route if it's a pass play, otherwise it's four blitzers vs. three linemen and the QB gets peeled off the turf; If it's a run, all blockers are accounted for and the playside safety can easily snuff it out)

[Dee Dub]

Todd Grantham's 3-4 might have just as much in common with Romeo Crennel's 3-4 that he learned in Cleveland...which would make sense, as both Saban and Crennel learned the 3-4 from Belichick...

Ding! Ding! Ding! Absolutely correct.

Both of which are different from Dick LeBeau's 3-4...

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Wrong!

Only thing different is that Saban and Belicheck introduced "Pattern-match" (man coverage that uses zone principles to identify the match-up). LeBeau's whole concept for the 3-4 zone blitz was he wanted "safe pressure" on the QB and as a result used and extensive zone coverage. Which really isnt a blitz at all. 90% of the time it was simply 4 men rushing.

But guess what not only is LeBeau now using "Patern-match" coverage, but all 3-4 D-coordinators are.

And if you still disagree then please tell us how exactly is LerBeaus' 3-4 different from Saban's.

[Dee Dub]

Todd Grantham and One-Gap Nose Tackle in the 3-4
Pelini's 4-3 nose approach is similar to Grantham's 3-4 nose approach. In Pelini's scheme, the NT isn't a typical two-gap player; he's a DT lined up as a 1-tech instead of a 2-tech or a 3-tech. As a result, the NT doesn't have to be a two-gap player. Instead, he gets to challenge a single gap, which allows him to get more consistent penetration and generally cause havoc. That's the theory behind Grantham's take on the 3-4:
[URL="http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/559755/one-gap_203-4_20nt.jpg"][/URL]
Note that the NT in this formation doesn't actually line up as a 0-tech; he's instead slightly offset at the strongside 1-tech. (He doesn't necessarily have to be there, but it's easier for illustrative purposes.) Because he's moved directly off center, he can easier challenge a single gap instead of the typical two-gap approach, meaning he'd go to either the left or right of center instead of right at him. That in turn forces the offense to respond differently than they would against a two-gap NT, and it's similar to how an offensive line copes with a DT in a 4-3. In addition, shifting the NT to a 1-tech in essenceforces the side that needs to double. Because the NT in the example above is shifted slightly, the left guard and center have to combine on the block (the right guard will never make it over there), and good things happen.
What kind of good things happen? Instead of being reliant on your NT soaking up two interior linemen, he directly threatens a gap, which in turn forces a hard response from the offensive line. The defensive end keeps the other guy on the line occupied, and the MLB on that side doesn't have to deal with any blockers. That means the MLB coming in gets to clean up the mess, and if he doesn't, then the OLB on that side gets to.
There's more than just that, though. Shifting the NT to single-gap allows you to do things like stunts, full-side overload blitzes (for example, in the above diagram the TE cannot release into his route if it's a pass play, otherwise it's four blitzers vs. three linemen and the QB gets peeled off the turf; If it's a run, all blockers are accounted for and the playside safety can easily snuff it out)

Note, they all do this. Even the Steelers. Their base is a 3-4 2 gap zone blitz. And that means it is their bread and butter. Who they are. But they all (those who run a 3-4), use some variations of a 1 gap as well as a 4-3. Haven't you not watched a Steeler game and seen them go to a 4-3?

Let me help you. The Steelers are running more 1 gap now because they no longer have a Casey Hampton 2 gap plugger. Can't do it with McClendon. But does that mean LeBeau is a 1 gap 3-4 man?

Thank you.

[steelerkeylargo]

Note, they all do this. Even the Steelers. Their base is a 3-4 2 gap zone blitz. And that means it is their bread and butter. Who they are. But they all (those who run a 3-4), use some variations of a 1 gap as well as a 4-3. Haven't you not watched a Steeler game and seen them go to a 4-3?

Let me help you. The Steelers are running more 1 gap now because they no longer have a Casey Hampton 2 gap plugger. Can't do it with McClendon. But does that mean LeBeau is a 1 gap 3-4 man?

Thank you.

I said Grantham runs a hybrid/1 gap 3-4. You told me he doesn't. Here is an example. There is your proof. Go bark up someone else's tree. I don't need your help with anything.

[Slapstick]

Ding! Ding! Ding! Absolutely correct.



Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Wrong!

Only thing different is that Saban and Belicheck introduced "Pattern-match" (man coverage that uses zone principles to identify the match-up). LeBeau's whole concept for the 3-4 zone blitz was he wanted "safe pressure" on the QB and as a result used and extensive zone coverage. Which really isnt a blitz at all. 90% of the time it was simply 4 men rushing.

But guess what not only is LeBeau now using "Patern-match" coverage, but all 3-4 D-coordinators are.

And if you still disagree then please tell us how exactly is LerBeaus' 3-4 different from Saban's.

It's a copycat league...for any DC to incorporate certain principles into a defense is expected...but, all of that has zero to do with the basic defensive principles, the terminology, the sheer amount of defensive play calls and/or coverages, etc....

Until we both have in hand defensive playbooks, it's just speculation...