Good read Cowher V's Tomlin

[Steelhere10]

[url]http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/10/7/4808418/steelers-head-coach-mike-tomlin-history-hot-seat-bill-cowher[/url]

[Slapstick]

I posted something very similar and was pooh-poohed...

But, apparently, I'm not the only one to observe this...

[Steelhere10]

Me and you both have been debating this. And a surprising fact that I found. Through 4 games the Steelers have only 18 penalties the least for the team since 2006, so obviously they ain't that terrible in not being prepared like some argue.

[steelz09]

It's not simply about inheriting the players . It's the continuous sloppy play and questionable "in game" coaching decisions. It's being prepared to play.... some players look confused. It seems like Tomlin is the dumbest coach & the smartest coach (if that makes sense) at the same time. I think he needs to stop overthinking some things and use some common sense. I think there is clearly a lack of leadership especially from a player standpoint.

It's the fact that over 7 years, very few of the "replacements" developed. The ones that are starters, you'd have to question their quality of play. Even 1st round picks (Heyward, Hood) aren't producing at Hoke, Aaron Smith (tough to match), Kemo levels. Look at our depth across the team.... ts depleted. I remember the days when you could tell guys were going to be beasts when given the opportunity to play on a full time basis. You can't have 1st round picks across the board. At some point, you have to develop your team.

[feltdizz]

It's not simply about inheriting the players . It's the continuous sloppy play and questionable "in game" coaching decisions. It's being prepared to play.... some players look confused. It seems like Tomlin is the dumbest coach & the smartest coach (if that makes sense) at the same time. I think he needs to stop overthinking some things and use some common sense. I think there is clearly a lack of leadership especially from a player standpoint.

It's the fact that over 7 years, very few of the "replacements" developed. The ones that are starters, you'd have to question their quality of play. Even 1st round picks (Heyward, Hood) aren't producing at Hoke, Aaron Smith (tough to match), Kemo levels. Look at our depth across the team.... ts depleted. I remember the days when you could tell guys were going to be beasts when given the opportunity to play on a full time basis. You can't have 1st round picks across the board. At some point, you have to develop your team.

How did Aaron SMith, Hoke and Kemo look like there first 3 years in the league? No snark.. serious question. I know they were drafted higher than our vets and that should also be used when evaluating them.

[steelz09]

Me and you both have been debating this. And a surprising fact that I found. Through 4 games the Steelers have only 18 penalties the least for the team since 2006, so obviously they ain't that terrible in not being prepared like some argue.

Penalties is a small portion of that.

[Vader]

It's another BS article from the same group. I've posted this before but here it goes again:

Again, Cowher had 3 players (one of which missed the entire SB season) and a couple of offensive players. 99% of which would be gone by this time in Tomlin's tenure. Cowher restocked the entire defense but those guys. Tomlin didn't restock anything. He had almost the EXACT same team as the SB team under Cowher. He replaced 3 people. Cowher replaced 8 just on the defense. The SB team of 95 was NOT stocked with Noll's talent. It just wasn't. 5 players no matter how good they are doesn't represent a full cupboard.

Just to see how silly this is here is the starting lineup for the 95 SB:

O'Donnell: Rookie in Noll's last year.
Pegram- FA picked up by Cowher
Williams- FA picked up by Cowher
Mills- Rookie during Noll's last season. Had 3 receptions.
Thigpen- Noll
Bruener- Cowher
Jackson- Noll
Newberry- FA picked up by Cowher
Dawson- Noll
Stai- Cowher
Searcy- Cowher
Buckner- Cowher
Steed- Cowher
Seals- FA by Cowher
Greene- FA by Cowher
Kirkland- Cowher
Brown- Cowher
Lloyd- Noll
Williams- Cowher
Lake- Noll
Bell- Cowher
Perry- Cowher

Woodson played some in the SB but was lost for the entire year. So 7 players, 2 of whom were rookies in Noll's last year, are the great "cupboard" that was left Cowher? Tomlin had 8 in his 5th year just on defense ALONE. Sorry, I don't see how anyone can say Cowher was left with a lot of talent. He had 3 really good defensive players and a couple of good OL. He had to replace 3 OL, ALL the RBs, ALL the DL, ALL but one of the LBers, and most of the CBs. It isn't even close to what Tomlin had.

[steelz09]

How did Aaron SMith, Hoke and Kemo look like there first 3 years in the league? No snark.. serious question. I know they were drafted higher than our vets and that should also be used when evaluating them.

That's another problem. 1st round picks shouldn't take 3 to 4 years to "develop". It's one thing if it takes 3 years for a good player to become a great player/playmaker. Timmons is another example.

[feltdizz]

That's another problem. 1st round picks shouldn't take 3 to 4 years to "develop". It's one thing if it takes 3 years for a good player to become a great player/playmaker. Timmons is another example.

maybe it's the scheme? We draft players and break them down and build them back up instead of letting them come in and do what made them attractive in college.

[steelz09]

maybe it's the scheme? We draft players and break them down and build them back up instead of letting them come in and do what made them attractive in college.

No... It has nothing to do with the 3-4 scheme and it's not just the defense either.

For some reason, the only position that we've had success developing is WR.

[Slapstick]

It's another BS article from the same group. I've posted this before but here it goes again:

Again, Cowher had 3 players (one of which missed the entire SB season) and a couple of offensive players. 99% of which would be gone by this time in Tomlin's tenure. Cowher restocked the entire defense but those guys. Tomlin didn't restock anything. He had almost the EXACT same team as the SB team under Cowher. He replaced 3 people. Cowher replaced 8 just on the defense. The SB team of 95 was NOT stocked with Noll's talent. It just wasn't. 5 players no matter how good they are doesn't represent a full cupboard.

Just to see how silly this is here is the starting lineup for the 95 SB:

O'Donnell: Rookie in Noll's last year.
Pegram- FA picked up by Cowher
Williams- FA picked up by Cowher
Mills- Rookie during Noll's last season. Had 3 receptions.
Thigpen- Noll
Bruener- Cowher
Jackson- Noll
Newberry- FA picked up by Cowher
Dawson- Noll
Stai- Cowher
Searcy- Cowher
Buckner- Cowher
Steed- Cowher
Seals- FA by Cowher
Greene- FA by Cowher
Kirkland- Cowher
Brown- Cowher
Lloyd- Noll
Williams- Cowher
Lake- Noll
Bell- Cowher
Perry- Cowher

Woodson played some in the SB but was lost for the entire year. So 7 players, 2 of whom were rookies in Noll's last year, are the great "cupboard" that was left Cowher? Tomlin had 8 in his 5th year just on defense ALONE. Sorry, I don't see how anyone can say Cowher was left with a lot of talent. He had 3 really good defensive players and a couple of good OL. He had to replace 3 OL, ALL the RBs, ALL the DL, ALL but one of the LBers, and most of the CBs. It isn't even close to what Tomlin had.

The point isn't how much or how little each coach had...

Did Tomlin inherit more players? Sure...he also accomplished more in his first six seasons with "inherited players" than Cowher did...

The similarity lies in what happened after the "inherited players" started to depart...the results have been similiar with both coaches...

If you are saying that Cowher "restocked the cupboard" with his own players during those first six seasons, that makes him look EVEN WORSE during the three year playoff absence...

[phillyesq]

How did Aaron SMith, Hoke and Kemo look like there first 3 years in the league? No snark.. serious question. I know they were drafted higher than our vets and that should also be used when evaluating them.

I remember Smith showing flashes early when he was on the field. He believe he got some snaps first in a rotation or as a backup and impressed, leading to him getting the starting gig. I also remember him being a bit smaller for a 3-4 DE initially and adding strenght.

I don't remember much about Hoke early on. KVO first played at NT for the Steelers, and he was bad. He was much better when he was moved to DE.

[Slapstick]

I remember Smith showing flashes early when he was on the field. He believe he got some snaps first in a rotation or as a backup and impressed, leading to him getting the starting gig. I also remember him being a bit smaller for a 3-4 DE initially and adding strenght.

I don't remember much about Hoke early on. KVO first played at NT for the Steelers, and he was bad. He was much better when he was moved to DE.

Hokie spent his entire first season on the PS...

KVO played NT for LeBeau in Cincinnati...the story goes that the FO asked Dermontti Dawson for his opinion on Kemo and he said that Kemo was tough...

[NorthCoast]

maybe it's the scheme? We draft players and break them down and build them back up instead of letting them come in and do what made them attractive in college.

Well, you are getting your wish on this one with this year's No. 1 pick. JJ hired to do exactly what he did in college....

[Vader]

The point isn't how much or how little each coach had...

Did Tomlin inherit more players? Sure...he also accomplished more in his first six seasons with "inherited players" than Cowher did...

The similarity lies in what happened after the "inherited players" started to depart...the results have been similiar with both coaches...

If you are saying that Cowher "restocked the cupboard" with his own players during those first six seasons, that makes him look EVEN WORSE during the three year playoff absence...

Tomlin did more with inherited players because he inherited BETTER players and more of them. Also did Tomlin go through a power struggle with the GM? Did Tomlin have to deal with FAs leaving because the STeelers couldn't afford to play them? Did Tomlin have to deal with pre-Heinz field budgets? Did Tomlin have to deal with a team that didn't have a franchise QB? It's stupid to think they had any similarities other than being a Steeler HC. Things were different back then but people forget that so they can build Tomlin up.