Why Was Ben Having a Pro Bowl Caliber Season Last Year?

[SteelerOfDeVille]

If by "Both" you mean me a Shawn....yes, we are both right.

Flippy your question was "why" was Ben having a great season.
SOD is not addressing that question, he is making a case that we are overselling how well Ben was playing.

Flippy look at the chart he posted. One season to the next, we arent goig back a decade.
I am not talking about how MUCH yards he threw for. That is meaningless.
A 32 TD to 8 int pace- That matters.

I want EFFECTIVE passing.
As I demonstated at length, the shorter passing LED to Ben's amzing 3rd down efficiency.
Even missing three games Ben STILL threw is most TDs since 07.
You think that is due to attempt?
Due to his missing games his pass attempt went DOWN and he STILL threw 26 TDs up from 21 in 2011.
Ben has bested the 26 TD passes last year only ONCE ever. Ben has had more attempts than this year many times.

The league is changing? Well passing records were broken by Brady and Brees in 2011 not in 2012.
Yet Ben got better BY FAR in 2013 especially before the injury.

-1, on this Ovi, not +1...

You've managed to prove my point, without even trying.
1. That passing records have been brokein in the last 2-3 years, means comparing Ben's 2004 self with Ben's 2012 self isn't an accurate comparison - you've proven that times are a'changing
2. It's amusing to me that you say i'm not addressing the question. Basically, you're saying, "Sod's using selective stats... don't look at those... look at the ones *i* select"

Fact is, some of his stats were better. Some were not.

AGAIN... the chains WERE NOT moving as well. The team had significantly fewer 1st downs... somebody explain that to me... why wouldn't a lot of dink and dunks result in a bunch of first downs?

[SteelerOfDeVille]

You mix team stats (total first downs despite a horrid run game) Those stats include the horrid stretch when Ben was out
Ben's entire season stats (when the topic is pre-injury)

That, I do... and there was a point to it...

riddle me this: if his short passing resulted in a higher completion rate (which the stats dont' reflect) and a lot more first downs (which, happen to be team stats) as most of you have argued it kept the chains moving because of more manageable 3rd downs, why don't the stats support that?

to me it's not acceptable to present a case based on opionion, then, disregard the facts when presented...

[Shawn]

To site passing records being broken in the last 2-3 years as the reason Ben was having a very strong 8 games is at best short sighted. Ignoring injury and using those post injury stats to support your case is manipulative. Ben was clearly not the same QB post injury. Asking him to continue his record season injured is asking too much. So, lets talk about Ben's first 8 games and at least be honest enough to say Haley may have played a role in Ben's early season success. Anything less, is having tunnel vision to prove a point. I can acknowledge passing rule changes may have helped all QBs including Ben. I just can't see those as being the sole reason Ben was having a record year.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

To site passing records being broken in the last 2-3 years as the reason Ben was having a very strong 8 games is at best short sighted. Ignoring injury and using those post injury stats to support your case is manipulative. Ben was clearly not the same QB post injury. Asking him to continue his record season injured is asking too much. So, lets talk about Ben's first 8 games and at least be honest enough to say Haley may have played a role in Ben's early season success. Anything less, is having tunnel vision to prove a point. I can acknowledge passing rule changes may have helped all QBs including Ben. I just can't see those as being the sole reason Ben was having a record year.

There were no SOLE reason... THAT is my point. There were MANY factors... INCLUDING those stated. All of 'em... Game situation (losing), nfl rule changes, maturation of Ben, lack of a run game turning him into more Dan Marino than "game manager"... there are MANY factors. I've been pretty consistent with this take.

If you're disagreeing with me, then, you, like the others, believe that it was only Haley and none of the other factors mattered... i can't buy in to that. sorry you do.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Thinking aloud... (stay with me... stop shaking your head... stay with me - lol)

If I attempt 45 passes with an average of 4-seconds between snap and release, or 30 passes with an average 6 seconds from snap to release, which one has put the QB in harms way more/less?

Either way, you have 180 seconds of "exposure" to your QB handling the ball on a passing play...

Now, on the one hand, you have more attempts to rush the QB... potentially 15 more times to hit him.
On the other hand, you hope he's getting it out before a sack happens - although, we all know a blitz can lead to a sack in 2 seconds, meaning a sack on either play...

do you factor in QB agility? Dunno...

"total sacks" are hard to do cuz Ben RARELY plays 16 games... but, I've found sacks per attempt and he was indeed sacked fewer times per drop-back than any other year. What's more fascinating is that number has improved annually since bottoming out in 2007. Darn if i didn't go looking for a number to support the Haley side of the argument and instead find one that i could see either side of... If it just happened for 5 consecutive years, i'm not sure we give Haley ALL the credit for last year's sack reduction...

Instead, realizeing that it was the 5th of 5-consecutive years improvement, do we concede that perhaps Ben's improving, getting wiser as time passes? Clearly, it's some combination of both, HOWEVER, which factor is bigger? I'd say the same factor that happend the 4 consecutive years prior to Haley's arrival... Maturation of Ben.

I've looked at it from many angles... I don't see one where I give Haley as much credit as you guys... I'm HOPING the changes to the offense this year, work better than last...just my $.02

[Captain Lemming]

AGAIN... the chains WERE NOT moving as well. The team had significantly fewer 1st downs... somebody explain that to me... why wouldn't a lot of dink and dunks result in a bunch of first downs?

1. No running game. 3rd and 1 and running back gets stuffed. That stops the chains.
2. A three game stretch where ben did not play. Then Ben come back and played poorly duye to lingering injury.

The premise of this thread is why Ben "started" the season on fire.
When you include SEASON stats including stats that include Leftwich and Batch to make your case plus Bens last few games, which have nothing to do with his start, you are not addressing the point.

"I" addressed Bens play during the period specified.
You are ignoring it.

[Shawn]

There were no SOLE reason... THAT is my point. There were MANY factors... INCLUDING those stated. All of 'em... Game situation (losing), nfl rule changes, maturation of Ben, lack of a run game turning him into more Dan Marino than "game manager"... there are MANY factors. I've been pretty consistent with this take.

If you're disagreeing with me, then, you, like the others, believe that it was only Haley and none of the other factors mattered... i can't buy in to that. sorry you do.

In all of that including your previous responses you have failed to give Haley a nod. You sited everything but Haley as the reason...hence my response. I believe it was mainly Haley..but not entirely. But, I will say only fans would believe a lack of a running game would produce a better passing game.

[Shawn]

No running game.
A three game stretch where ben did not play. Then Ben come back and played poorly duye to lingering injury.

The premise ogf this thread is that Ben "started" the season on fire.
When you include SEASON stats including stats that inclu
de Leftwich and Batch to make your case lpus Bens last few games, you are not addressing the point.

What I can't understand is why anyone would use stats where Ben wasn't playing or playing injured. It's just not honest. Not to mention, how does lacking a run game help the passing game?

[Captain Lemming]

That, I do... and there was a point to it...

riddle me this: if his short passing resulted in a higher completion rate (which the stats dont' reflect) and a lot more first downs (which, happen to be team stats) as most of you have argued it kept the chains moving because of more manageable 3rd downs, why don't the stats support that?

67 percent pace pre-injury. He DID improve pass percentage during the period in question.
1st down? Yes, this is a team stat which includes THE WORSE RUN GAME IN MEMORY and games featuring Batch, and Leftwich.

IF YOU LOOK AT BEN ALONE? HIS third down stats? Especially b4 injury?
Dude was awesome.
I gave you anb exaple listing every play and Ben completed EVERY SINGLE short and medium third down pass attempt in the game.
2 incompletions, both long passes.

THAT is how Haley's offense works.

But if you need to include the run game and Batch to make a case that Ben Haley made no difference, I understand.
It is the ONLY way to make your case.

[Captain Lemming]

What I can't understand is why anyone would use stats where Ben wasn't playing or playing injured. It's just not honest. Not to mention, how does lacking a run game help the passing game?

As I just said, "But if you need to include the run game and Batch to make a case that Haley made no difference, I understand.
It is the ONLY way to make your case. "

[Captain Lemming]

-1, on this Ovi, not +1...
2. It's amusing to me that you say i'm not addressing the question.

SOD look at the title of the thread. "Why was Ben having a Pro Bowl Season" The initial post was talking about Ben's great "start".

You are not addressing THAT question, as you disagree with the premise.

Basically, you're saying, "Sod's using selective stats... don't look at those... look at the ones *i* select"

No I am saying you are not selective at all, when selectivity is required to address this question.
To make your case YOU include stats which factor in the play of the running game, backup QBs, and how Ben "finished" the season.
The inclusion of those numbers skew the figures "down" as compared to looking at Ben's Great start.

"I" did "select" stats. Those that address the initial post. I did not choose the topic Flippy did.

In order to address the topic, one must limit the scope specifically how BEN PLAYED pre injury.

In your attempt to obscure the degree of Ben's improvement, YOU broaden the scope of your statistics beyond those that measure "BEN ALONE" pre-injury.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

I believe it was mainly Haley..but not entirely.

and that is really the difference. i don't believe it was mainly haley... i believe there were many factors, but, if i had to pick one to say "mainly"... if anything, i believe it was mainly ben just being better and wiser in year 10 than he was in year 3 or 5 or 7....

[SteelerOfDeVille]

What I can't understand is why anyone would use stats where Ben wasn't playing or playing injured. It's just not honest. Not to mention, how does lacking a run game help the passing game?

Ben plays injured ANNUALLY... Ben misses games ANNUALLY. comparing ONLY his healthy stats to PRIOR years when he DID play injured is dishonest... just sayin...

(fwiw, the only team stats included were first downs... if they were playing at an amazing clip, moving the chains, you'd think even with the injury pulling the numbers back, they would have AT LEAST been in the neighborhood... they weren't)

[feltdizz]

Ben plays injured ANNUALLY... Ben misses games ANNUALLY. comparing ONLY his healthy stats to PRIOR years when he DID play injured is dishonest... just sayin...

(fwiw, the only team stats included were first downs... if they were playing at an amazing clip, moving the chains, you'd think even with the injury pulling the numbers back, they would have AT LEAST been in the neighborhood... they weren't)

I agree.. Ben rarely plays healthy. I'm still waiting for an answer about the number of first downs being low the first 8 games.

I think the lack of a running game was also a reason. Some people say a bad running game would make it harder for him.... yet those same people say the it's a passing league and the running game isn't that important.

[Shawn]

Ben plays injured ANNUALLY... Ben misses games ANNUALLY. comparing ONLY his healthy stats to PRIOR years when he DID play injured is dishonest... just sayin...

(fwiw, the only team stats included were first downs... if they were playing at an amazing clip, moving the chains, you'd think even with the injury pulling the numbers back, they would have AT LEAST been in the neighborhood... they weren't)

I think looking at stats where Ben is clearly not himself physically is not the best gauge to analyze anything let alone an OC. I think a better indicator is looking at a healthy Ben to make assessments. I suppose we can agree to disagree.