In Transition, Is Now Time for the 4-3?

[Oviedo]

Suurprise! My favorite topic, but seriously with this team in serious transition is now the time for change?

Facts:
1. No true NT which is critical to 3-4. Also getting too hard to find in draft
2. Critical OLBs are not strong performers last two years and just cut one of all time best. No player ready to step in.
3. No depth at Safety and Troy fading which is critical to LeBeau's scheme
4. Short one ILB to have two good ones
5. Losing veterans fast and got to get young players into the line up faster so the Lebeau 2 year apprenticeship won't work.

This draft seems to have more players on defense who could naturally step into 4-3 roles versus "learn" 3-4.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

I would have no issue at all with something like this if it removes Lebeau's sit and wait period and allows draftees to step in and use their athletic ability quicker where they just play football instead of mentally worrying about some complex system. 3-4 and 4-3 have both won Superbowls, but the 3-4 is much more complex and players sit for half their first contract.

Woodley would be a good 4-3 DE where he just rushes the passer and isn't worried about dropping into coverage and keeping up with the Ray Rices of the NFL.
Keisel could play 4-3 DE for another season or two until we draft another one.
Ta'amu, Fangupo, Hood, Heyward, McLendon can be DT's.
Not sure but maybe some of the backup type LB's we have on the roster could excell in a 4-3.
Willie Gay is a good zone coverage CB.
Drafting a FS or SS would be much easier if they don't have to come in and learn Lebeau's zone blitz and can just play like in a zone coverage system like college.

[BradshawsHairdresser]

Don't see it happening as long as Grandpa is running the D.

[Slapstick]

I think that the draft will tell the tale...

With guys like Keisel and Clark winding down their careers, mainstays like Smith, Farrior, Hampton and now Harrison gone, and other players (Worilds, Hood) in the last year of their respective contracts, I don't think you can rule it out even with LeBeau returning for another year...

Now, if the Steelers can pick up a viasble NT and OLB in the draft, sticking with the 3-4 becomes much easier...

The thing is, LeBeau's defense still WORKS and WORKS WELL, schematically...

A DC can scheme to reduce yards and point, free up pass rushers and not give up big plays...but, you can't scheme turnovers...the player has to step up and make a play on the ball...

It isn't LeBeau's scheme that is to blame for a lack of defensive turnovers...he has coached defenses that have forced plenty of turnovers...that is a function of players not playing well...

[Mister Pittsburgh]

We need help this year or next where guys are going to need to step in year one or two and start. One takes players 2 years to learn. One doesn't. Both systems work equally well.

[steelblood]

It should be investigated.

But, it would be nice to go into the draft with an open mind.

If we get a pass rusher, Ansah would be best in a 4-3 where he could simply get up field and use his athleticism. It might take him years to play 3-4 OLB in our system. Moore and Werner might be best in a 4-3 as well. Moore played a 3-4 OLB spot and had little success. As a DE, he was a monster. Werner seems like a better DE from a quickness/size perspective. But, guys like Mingo, Jones, and Jordan all seem like better fits for a 3-4 because of their size/strength and reliance on quickness.

[supersteeler]

Ta'amu could be our answer for the NT position if he can clear his legal issues. For the Steelers to keep him on the roster that tells me he's still in their plans. As for making a switch to a 4-3 it could be a viable thing to do, but I don't think the Steelers would consider it when the 3-4 worked well for years.
It may be a matter of posssibly switching players instead of scheme. I would like to see what mclendon could do playing end and Hood competing at NT with Heyward getting more playing time alternating with Keisel.
The Steelers at one time were considering Hood to compete with Mclendon for NT, but that was before Casey took a pay cut to stay, maybe they will consider that again possibly.

Our secondary seemed to be the strongest part of our Defense last season in the second half, just imagine if we get more pressure from our front seven, maybe the INT's and turnovers will follow. From what we read in media articles the Steelers don't have all the confidence in Jason Worlids but from what I seen in his limited play he could help us in pressuring the QB which seems to be is strong point. It's tough to develope as a player when you have limited playing time, maybe that's what Worlids needs to get better in the other parts of playing OLB.

4-3? Maybe when Master D retires, but for now I don't see it.

[feltdizz]

I think we should take it into consideration if we really in transition. I wonder how it would effect the current roster.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

One thing that seems odd to me is when switching to the 4-3 from the 3-4 is brought up people act like we would have to cut half the defense and start from scratch, yet the offensive line can switch from a man blocking to zone blocking offensive line and 4 of 5 guys that either started or played last year will be those making the switch in one offseason. Yeah, they have zone blocked a little before but its not as their base offense. Not to mention, the offense can make the switch from Arians long ball offense to Haley's conservative short passing offense and its fine, no big deal.

Why can't the defense be expected to do the same without some total retooling? Big deal, some of their responsibilities will change. We may need to add a player or two just like we need to for Haley's offense or the zone blocking. The 4-3 tampa 2 is what Tomlin made his name running so make the switch, get rid of the 2 or 3 year learning curve, and lets get on the path for #7 sooner rather than 2 or 3 years from now.

[Vader]

The problem with sitching to the 3-4 is that Woodley has never played with his hand down in the NFL. Foote is already slow and giving him more field to cover isn't good. Also noticed that some of the best defenses in the NFL were from the 3-4 including the Steelers who were #1 again this year. I don't understand the need to change something that is obviously working. Name a great 4-3 team with average talent along the front like we would have if Woodley, Hood, Heyward, and the beard were on the line.

Also Tomlin did run the 4-3 but he was only a OC for one year. It isn't like he designed it or was even that good with it. He was a DB coach at Tampa not the OC. LeBeau has forgotten more about defense than Tomlin knows. His passing defense when he was the OC with the Vikings was the worst in the league. Is that really what the Steelers want here?

[Slapstick]

The problem with sitching to the 3-4 is that Woodley has never played with his hand down in the NFL. Foote is already slow and giving him more field to cover isn't good. Also noticed that some of the best defenses in the NFL were from the 3-4 including the Steelers who were #1 again this year. I don't understand the need to change something that is obviously working. Name a great 4-3 team with average talent along the front like we would have if Woodley, Hood, Heyward, and the beard were on the line.

Also Tomlin did run the 4-3 but he was only a OC for one year. It isn't like he designed it or was even that good with it. He was a DB coach at Tampa not the OC. LeBeau has forgotten more about defense than Tomlin knows. His passing defense when he was the OC with the Vikings was the worst in the league. Is that really what the Steelers want here?

It has nothing to do with what Tomlin wants or knows...it has to do with the personnel on the Steelers' roster...

Again, with no Smith, Farrior, Hampton or Harrison, the Steelers (and LeBeau) need to evaluate if the 3-4 can continue to be effective without those guys...

I'm sure whatever decision they come up with will be the right one...

FYI, the Steelers practiced the 4-3 last season due to injuries...if it is to be done, it should be done in the offseason...

[URL]http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/on-the-steelers-time-to-switch-back-to-the-4-3-659531/[/URL]

How would a 4-3 alignment look in 2013 if, say, Harrison, Hampton and Brett Keisel, who will be 34 next year, were no longer here?

"We can do it," said Foote, who noted they have practiced the 4-3, especially last season when Harrison and Woodley were hurt. Just in case.
He also noted that coordinator Dick LeBeau, linebackers coach Keith Butler (coordinator in waiting) and coach Mike Tomlin all have worked with 4-3 defenses.

"We threw it in when our linebackers got hurt and we were down in numbers," Foote said. "... We had it to a point, we repped it and they were comfortable running it."

Woodley said he prefers to play linebacker in the 3-4 because his duties are more varied than when he played end at Michigan and mostly rushed the quarterback.

"Could we transition to it? Yeah, we can transition to it," Woodley said. "We have enough of everything to transition to it."

[phillyesq]

The problem with sitching to the 3-4 is that Woodley has never played with his hand down in the NFL. Foote is already slow and giving him more field to cover isn't good. Also noticed that some of the best defenses in the NFL were from the 3-4 including the Steelers who were #1 again this year. I don't understand the need to change something that is obviously working. Name a great 4-3 team with average talent along the front like we would have if Woodley, Hood, Heyward, and the beard were on the line.

Also Tomlin did run the 4-3 but he was only a OC for one year. It isn't like he designed it or was even that good with it. He was a DB coach at Tampa not the OC. LeBeau has forgotten more about defense than Tomlin knows. His passing defense when he was the OC with the Vikings was the worst in the league. Is that really what the Steelers want here?

Great first post, and welcome to the board.

[phillyesq]

I see no need to switch to the 4-3, and I think it is a mistake to build a defense that features very average players like Ziggy Hood, Steve McClendon and the rest of the Steelers defensive lineman. A few brief points:

1) To those who complain about the conversion period, kindly point to a single piece of emperical data suggesting that there is a longer transition from college players coming into a 3-4 than there is for players coming to a 4-3. With the amount of statistical breakdown that is out there, than surely there must be statistical breakdowns demonstrating this to be the case. Moreover, if the 4-3 is so much more efficient, then why is it that at least half of the teams in the league run a 3-4 or some variety thereof? Don't you think that front office folks would have figured this out?

Good teams throughout the league start veteran players. The 49ers did not have a starter with less than 6 years of experience.

2) The franchise tag values bear out that it is more difficult to find a DE than an OLB. NFL player salaries are largely a function of scarcity and value. Franchise QBs are the most scare and most valuable and, thus, are paid the most. Kickers and Punters are considered generally fungible and are paid the least. The franchise tag value for DEs is the second highest figure. The point is not that you want to apply the tag; the point is that DEs are considered the second most valuable and most rare commodity, behind only QBs. Even with more teams playing a 3-4, it is easier to find a 3-4 OLB than it is to find a 4-3 DE.

3) The biggest problem facing the Steelers is personnel, not scheme. Quite simply, you need to win one-on-one battles. The Steelers pass rushers didn't win enough of those battles last year. Whether standing or putting his hand in the dirt, Woodley needs to get to the QB. He's been quite effective in the 3-4, so it isn't a scheme problem; it's his own issue.

4) Who is going to play LBer? Timmons is best suited as an OLB in the 4-3. Foote doesn't really fit as a 4-3 MLB anymore. Worilds is a DE in the 4-3. You would need a true MLB and another OLB. As it stands now, you can bring back Foote for at or near the vet minimum and add a developmental OLB behind Worilds. In a 4-3, you need 2 new starters.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

All 3-4's aren't equal. Lebeau's 3-4 is often described as the most complex by his own players.

[Oviedo]

The problem with sitching to the 3-4 is that Woodley has never played with his hand down in the NFL. Foote is already slow and giving him more field to cover isn't good. Also noticed that some of the best defenses in the NFL were from the 3-4 including the Steelers who were #1 again this year. I don't understand the need to change something that is obviously working. Name a great 4-3 team with average talent along the front like we would have if Woodley, Hood, Heyward, and the beard were on the line.

Also Tomlin did run the 4-3 but he was only a OC for one year. It isn't like he designed it or was even that good with it. He was a DB coach at Tampa not the OC. LeBeau has forgotten more about defense than Tomlin knows. His passing defense when he was the OC with the Vikings was the worst in the league. Is that really what the Steelers want here?

I guess you just happened to forget to mention that Tomlin's defense was eighth best in the NFL the year he was Def Coord and was #1 against the run.

Maybe the "more" that LeBeau has forgotten is the part about sacking the QB and Intercepting the pass. The last two years would indicate he has in fact forgotten how to coach his players how to do that, although I'm sure it is all the fault of the players, Tomlin and Colbert.