Which Steelers Player is Most UnderValued and OverValued?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • steelz09
    Administrator
    • Jan 2008
    • 4675

    #31
    Originally posted by Oviedo
    Timmons is also constrained by playing ILB in a defensive scheme that does not allow him to fully utilize his best skills.
    Originally posted by Steelerphile
    There are some who will never be satisfied with Timmons, but let me try to spin his performance another direction. One good year of 5? Well at least you give him credit for 2010, which some people do not. He was 8th in the NFL in tackles that season. 3.0 sacks, which seems a little low, but the 7 tacklers above him had fewer. 11 passes defensed, which is very good for a LB. 2 picks that season, also good for a LB. He started out fast and seemed headed for the Pro Bowl but petered out a little. Still a very good season and he was 25 and that was what got him the good contract.

    I might disagree that was his only good season, because I think he played well in a more reserve role in 2009, when he shared time with Foote. He had 7 sacks that year and 55 tackles. I think that was good season also, but just more in a reserve role. When you say it took him 2 years to crack the starting lineup, it implies it was due to him just being a poor player. But there are factors involved, he was a young player, drafted as a junior and needed to get a little stronger and he was also injured his first season, which took starting out of the equation and delayed his development. He also was not competing with free agents or other young players to start. He had Farrior and Foote ahead of him, who are both very good players, who the coaches couldn't summarily yank out when they were playing well.

    I was not thrilled with Timmons play in 2011 myself, even though some might justify it by saying he was moving around positions on a week to week basis. I think that has some validity, but Timmons didn't adapt as well to moving around as I think he should have.

    So the debate will continue to rage. I think he is many miles away from a bust. But I think some people do consider him to be. This is a key year for him because I think he should be situtated one place more so, and he should go back to at least his 2010 performance.
    Originally posted by Steelerphile
    There are some who will never be satisfied with Timmons, but let me try to spin his performance another direction. One good year of 5? Well at least you give him credit for 2010, which some people do not. He was 8th in the NFL in tackles that season. 3.0 sacks, which seems a little low, but the 7 tacklers above him had fewer. 11 passes defensed, which is very good for a LB. 2 picks that season, also good for a LB. He started out fast and seemed headed for the Pro Bowl but petered out a little. Still a very good season and he was 25 and that was what got him the good contract.

    I might disagree that was his only good season, because I think he played well in a more reserve role in 2009, when he shared time with Foote. He had 7 sacks that year and 55 tackles. I think that was good season also, but just more in a reserve role. When you say it took him 2 years to crack the starting lineup, it implies it was due to him just being a poor player. But there are factors involved, he was a young player, drafted as a junior and needed to get a little stronger and he was also injured his first season, which took starting out of the equation and delayed his development. He also was not competing with free agents or other young players to start. He had Farrior and Foote ahead of him, who are both very good players, who the coaches couldn't summarily yank out when they were playing well.

    I was not thrilled with Timmons play in 2011 myself, even though some might justify it by saying he was moving around positions on a week to week basis. I think that has some validity, but Timmons didn't adapt as well to moving around as I think he should have.

    So the debate will continue to rage. I think he is many miles away from a bust. But I think some people do consider him to be. This is a key year for him because I think he should be situtated one place more so, and he should go back to at least his 2010 performance.
    I don't want to get off topic on this but this is why I think Timmons is overvalued.

    Tomlin drafted him to be an OLB and he is no good at it. Luckily, they were able to successfully move him to ILB. It took him too long to contribute being the high draft pick he was. Regardless of whether that was the coaches, the FO, or Timmons fault isn't the point. That doesn't give him or anyone a "free pass". The point is that he was making very good $$ and not contributing to that dollar amount. He was basically just learning a new position. By the time he finally started to contribute he was due for a new monster contract. So let me get this straight... you get paid good $$ for a team to groom you for your entire rookie contract and then ask for a monster contract once the grooming is complete? That's like a company paying me 1 million/year out of college to do "on the job training". Then, when I finally learn enough to do my job, I ask the company to pay me 2 million/year. I know this wouldn't happen but maybe he should have given some of his rookie contract $$ back since he didn't deserve all that money. Here is another point regarding my overvalued comment...

    He's not a great blitzer. He gets sidestepped very easily by QBs. He doesn't boast the power to run straight through a RB's block and he can get chipped easily which throws him a bit off target on blitzes and doesn't recover fast enough.

    He doesn't have great instincts for a ILB. Not even close to Farrior when Farrior was in his prime. He's fast after he diagnoses a play but it takes him too long to diagnose a play. Did he make a lot of tackles in 2010... sure. But, I don't care about tackles after a 3+ yard gain. I want a LB that can diagnose a play quickly, fight off a block quickly, and fill a gap. Timmons is not great in that aspect. He's gotten better... no question about it.

    He's good in pass coverage but he's not what most crack him up to be. He had to gain weight (and it shows physically) to be a full time ILB. When he gained his weight, I think he lost some of his speed which isn't surprising. Regardless of what some people say, Timmons or just about any other ILB is going to be outmatched by Graham, Gronk, Vernon Davis, etc. People say we need more "Timmons" to handle these new breed of TEs. I completely disagree because Timmons can't cover those type of TEs on a consistent basis anyways. That will require more a safety or large CB (i.e. Cortez Allen), not Timmons.

    Next up, splash plays. Where are these so called "splash plays"? He had a INT last year that fell right in his lap but that's far from a splash play. Maybe, just maybe Timmons will starting providing splash plays before he retires.

    In summary, I list him as overvalued because he doesn't provide as much value as what he is being paid. He can't cover elite TEs with consistency (not surprising for a ILB), he's not a great blitzer, doesn't have great instincts, not great in run support, and doesn't supply any splash plays.

    Is that his fault? I don't know. It's quite possible that it's Tomlin's or Colbert's fault. He simply might be a guy that is playing in a wrong system. He might have been an all-pro in a 4-3. ILB in a 3-4 is a very tough, instinctive position and Timmons got thrown that when he was already in the NFL. A lot of true 3-4 ILB were playing that since high school. However, all of this doesn't matter. The reality is that he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and he's in a 3-4 system. Regardless of whether it's his fault, the systems, the coaches, the FO, or whomever, it's my belief that he's overvalued on **this** team.
    Tomlin: Let's unleash hell and "mop the floor" with the competition.

    Comment

    • Oviedo
      Legend
      • May 2008
      • 23824

      #32
      Originally posted by steelz09
      That may be true but then we shouldn't have drafted him in the first place.
      Obviously given the big contract he got last year Timmons has pleased the coaches and front office more than message board and media "experts."

      IMO when Timmons was drafted Tomlin never expected that the team would still be running the 3-4. I think in his mind LeBeau would have left and he would yhad put in his defense. As you recall, all you heard when Timmons was drafted was references to how much he was like Derrick Brooks the best 4-3 OLB Tomlin was ever associated with.
      "My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"

      Comment

      • grotonsteel
        Hall of Famer
        • Jul 2008
        • 2810

        #33
        P-Willis Splash plays
        Sacks: 17.0
        PDef: 40
        INT: 5
        TD: 2

        Timmons Splash Plays:
        Sacks: 17.0
        PDef: 21
        INT: 4
        TD: 0

        Willis had great years in 2008 and 2011. Infact i would say 49ers LB corp was the best in NFL last season. Timmons was not that great in 2011 buy maybe injuries to other LBers had a role to play.

        Timmons is not a HOF LBer but he is a really good player. And looking at the players drafted after Timmons well only Beason and Ben grubbs are playing well. There are only 4 players who have played better than Timmons and all were drafted Top-15. Megatron, J Thomas, Revis and P-Willis.
        Last edited by grotonsteel; 07-05-2012, 11:26 AM.
        Steelers Draft 2015
        Rd 1: Devante Parker - WR/ Kevin Johnson - CB
        Rd 2: Danielle Hunter -OLB
        Rd 3: Steven Nelson - CB
        Rd 4: Derron Smith - S
        Rd 5: Henry Anderson - DE
        Rd 6: Wes Saxton - TE
        Rd 7: Deon Simon - DT

        Comment

        • steelz09
          Administrator
          • Jan 2008
          • 4675

          #34
          Originally posted by Oviedo
          Obviously given the big contract he got last year Timmons has pleased the coaches and front office more than message board and media "experts."

          IMO when Timmons was drafted Tomlin never expected that the team would still be running the 3-4. I think in his mind LeBeau would have left and he would yhad put in his defense. As you recall, all you heard when Timmons was drafted was references to how much he was like Derrick Brooks the best 4-3 OLB Tomlin was ever associated with.
          Yea.. well the FO has been wrong before and the message board experts have been right Examples include moving Colon to guard which we've been pleading for the last 2+ years. The coaches said, "he's not a guard, he's a RT". Fast forward to this year, they move him to guard. lol
          Tomlin: Let's unleash hell and "mop the floor" with the competition.

          Comment

          • steelz09
            Administrator
            • Jan 2008
            • 4675

            #35
            Originally posted by grotonsteel
            P-Willis Splash plays
            Sacks: 17.0
            PDef: 40
            INT: 5
            TD: 2

            Timmons Splash Plays:
            Sacks: 17.0
            PDef: 21
            INT: 4
            TD: 0

            Willis had great years in 2008 and 2011. Infact i would say 49ers LB corp was the best in NFL last season. Timmons was not that great in 2011 buy maybe injuries to other LBers had a role to play.

            Timmons is not a HOF LBer but he is a really good player. And looking at the players drafted after Timmons well only Beason and Ben grubbs are playing well. There are only 4 players who have played better than Timmons and all were drafted Top-15. Megatron, J Thomas, Revis and P-Willis.
            Splash plays can't be measured on just stats alone. Big plays in big moments = splash plays. For example, getting an INT when the score is 27-3 with 30 seconds in the game is kind of irrelevant. I'm not saying they shouldn't be included though.

            Also, splash plays IMO are bigger than stats alone. In the SB, against the Cardinals, Timmons had a splash play on the Harrison INT. He was right in Warners face and forced a bad throwing angle. That was obviously huge. Another splash play is stuffing a RB on a critical 3rd and 1 play. On the stat sheet it looks like 1 tackle but in reality its much more than that.
            Tomlin: Let's unleash hell and "mop the floor" with the competition.

            Comment

            • phillyesq
              Legend
              • May 2008
              • 7568

              #36
              Originally posted by steelz09
              I don't want to get off topic on this but this is why I think Timmons is overvalued.

              Tomlin drafted him to be an OLB and he is no good at it. Luckily, they were able to successfully move him to ILB. It took him too long to contribute being the high draft pick he was. Regardless of whether that was the coaches, the FO, or Timmons fault isn't the point. That doesn't give him or anyone a "free pass". The point is that he was making very good $$ and not contributing to that dollar amount. He was basically just learning a new position. By the time he finally started to contribute he was due for a new monster contract. So let me get this straight... you get paid good $$ for a team to groom you for your entire rookie contract and then ask for a monster contract once the grooming is complete? That's like a company paying me 1 million/year out of college to do "on the job training". Then, when I finally learn enough to do my job, I ask the company to pay me 2 million/year. I know this wouldn't happen but maybe he should have given some of his rookie contract $$ back since he didn't deserve all that money. Here is another point regarding my overvalued comment...

              He's not a great blitzer. He gets sidestepped very easily by QBs. He doesn't boast the power to run straight through a RB's block and he can get chipped easily which throws him a bit off target on blitzes and doesn't recover fast enough.

              He doesn't have great instincts for a ILB. Not even close to Farrior when Farrior was in his prime. He's fast after he diagnoses a play but it takes him too long to diagnose a play. Did he make a lot of tackles in 2010... sure. But, I don't care about tackles after a 3+ yard gain. I want a LB that can diagnose a play quickly, fight off a block quickly, and fill a gap. Timmons is not great in that aspect. He's gotten better... no question about it.

              He's good in pass coverage but he's not what most crack him up to be. He had to gain weight (and it shows physically) to be a full time ILB. When he gained his weight, I think he lost some of his speed which isn't surprising. Regardless of what some people say, Timmons or just about any other ILB is going to be outmatched by Graham, Gronk, Vernon Davis, etc. People say we need more "Timmons" to handle these new breed of TEs. I completely disagree because Timmons can't cover those type of TEs on a consistent basis anyways. That will require more a safety or large CB (i.e. Cortez Allen), not Timmons.

              Next up, splash plays. Where are these so called "splash plays"? He had a INT last year that fell right in his lap but that's far from a splash play. Maybe, just maybe Timmons will starting providing splash plays before he retires.

              In summary, I list him as overvalued because he doesn't provide as much value as what he is being paid. He can't cover elite TEs with consistency (not surprising for a ILB), he's not a great blitzer, doesn't have great instincts, not great in run support, and doesn't supply any splash plays.

              Is that his fault? I don't know. It's quite possible that it's Tomlin's or Colbert's fault. He simply might be a guy that is playing in a wrong system. He might have been an all-pro in a 4-3. ILB in a 3-4 is a very tough, instinctive position and Timmons got thrown that when he was already in the NFL. A lot of true 3-4 ILB were playing that since high school. However, all of this doesn't matter. The reality is that he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and he's in a 3-4 system. Regardless of whether it's his fault, the systems, the coaches, the FO, or whomever, it's my belief that he's overvalued on **this** team.
              Very well said.

              I'm not sure that Timmons is overrated, but he certainly is the player that has most consistently failed to meet expectations. He was drafted 15th overall - in that range, you want an impact player, a game changer. You want the same thing from a guy given a $50 million deal. Timmons simply is not that player.

              His best years where when we would play in passing downs as a nickel linebacker. With the weight he has added to play full time, he is nothing special in coverage.

              If he returns to form this year, he can be an above average ILB. Even that, however, is a disappointment based on his draft status and salary.

              Comment

              • Oviedo
                Legend
                • May 2008
                • 23824

                #37
                Originally posted by steelz09
                Splash plays can't be measured on just stats alone. Big plays in big moments = splash plays. For example, getting an INT when the score is 27-3 with 30 seconds in the game is kind of irrelevant. I'm not saying they shouldn't be included though.

                Also, splash plays IMO are bigger than stats alone. In the SB, against the Cardinals, Timmons had a splash play on the Harrison INT. He was right in Warners face and forced a bad throwing angle. That was obviously huge. Another splash play is stuffing a RB on a critical 3rd and 1 play. On the stat sheet it looks like 1 tackle but in reality its much more than that.
                Unfortunately, that may have been the last time that LeBeau turned him loose on an inside blitz. It seems to be a forgotten part of our defense.
                "My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"

                Comment

                • Slapstick
                  Rookie
                  • May 2008
                  • 0

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Oviedo
                  Unfortunately, that may have been the last time that LeBeau turned him loose on an inside blitz. It seems to be a forgotten part of our defense.
                  I would REALLY like to see Timmons at the Buck LB...

                  Put him in a position to consistently make plays instead of playing him out of position or 20 yards downfield in coverage...
                  Actually, my post was NOT about you...but, if the shoe fits, feel free to lace that &!+€# up and wear it.

                  Comment

                  • Oviedo
                    Legend
                    • May 2008
                    • 23824

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Slapstick
                    I would REALLY like to see Timmons at the Buck LB...

                    Put him in a position to consistently make plays instead of playing him out of position or 20 yards downfield in coverage...
                    Couldn't agree more. Perhaps when Butler is calling the shots.
                    "My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"

                    Comment

                    • Slapstick
                      Rookie
                      • May 2008
                      • 0

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Oviedo
                      Couldn't agree more. Perhaps when Butler is calling the shots.
                      I think it has nothing to do with LeBeau or Butler at this point...

                      I think they'll move Timmons when they have a football player that they feel confident in taking over the Mack position...Spence, perhaps?

                      If Spence can play, I think you'll see it happen whether LeBeau retires or not...
                      Actually, my post was NOT about you...but, if the shoe fits, feel free to lace that &!+€# up and wear it.

                      Comment

                      • feltdizz
                        Legend
                        • May 2008
                        • 27564

                        #41
                        Stop moving Timmon's around for a year and see how he does...
                        Steelers 27
                        Rats 16

                        Comment

                        • Crash
                          Legend
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 5008

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Slapstick
                          I would REALLY like to see Timmons at the Buck LB...

                          Put him in a position to consistently make plays instead of playing him out of position or 20 yards downfield in coverage...
                          Is there an echo?

                          Comment

                          • Slapstick
                            Rookie
                            • May 2008
                            • 0

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Crash
                            Is there an echo?
                            You have similar sentiments?

                            Even a blind squirrel...
                            Actually, my post was NOT about you...but, if the shoe fits, feel free to lace that &!+€# up and wear it.

                            Comment

                            Working...