Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

[Sugar]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

Somewhat disingenuous quoting when you omit that the final blow to the case was the accuser basically indicating that she would no longer cooperate with the investigation.

I'm glad we live in a society with a high burden of proof for criminal convictions. We don't lock people up simply based on the fact that it was more likely they committed a crime than it is that they didn't.

However, the absence of sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a crime was committed does not necessarily dictate the public's opinion (OJ anyone?). All of us are free to look at the information available and form our own opinions about Ben. That bit may be the only part that matters to you..that's fine others might argue that the only bit that matters is that she says she said no. Or that the only bit that matters is that Ben appears to have told two different stories that night.

The criminal case is closed but for me (and maybe others) I find it hard to look at what is there on the record and find it more likely than not that Ben is guilty of rape. And if you think I *want* that to be the conclusion...well I don't know what to say.

A couple thoughts:

First, the reason her testimony was needed was because it was the ONLY evidence. There was nothing else, so she was key. You don't need to have the testimony of the alleged victim in a criminal case unless there is nothing else.

Secondly, this wasn't a trial where they had to meet a burden based on the issue of law for a jury to convict. In this case there wasn't even enough evidence of any kind to even charge Ben. Getting a conviction can be a high burden, but simply getting a charge is not.

There is absolutely nothing in the record to suggest in any way that Ben was guilty of rape or even sexual assault (lesser charge). In fact, he appears to have said that he didn't give her the time of day- so who do you believe? Why?

[brothervad]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

With no DNA, no video evidence and no eyewitness accounts, the investigation was dealt its final blow on April 2.

Ten days later, Mr. Bright announced on live television that there would be no charges filed against Mr. Roethlisberger. His obstacle, he said, was not being able to prove that a crime was committed beyond a reasonable doubt.

Since we're highlighting the article, allow me to highlight the ONLY portion that matters. We get it, some of you want him to be guilty, it's over...you're beating a dead horse, let it go & wait for the punishment or trading that's to come.

Yeah that's all that matters....go root for him because he can throw TD's...

because football is the only thing that matters...

hell some of you would defend if you were there and heard her say "No...Stop" you would say she meant "No, don't stop" because you believe in what you want to believe no matter what.

It's always something else:

The media is out to get Ben
The girl is a gold digger
The sorority sisters needed to get their story straight
The Sgt on hand who had no bias whatsoever said she said no, regardless of additional info
No DNA...but who cares that the alleged crime scene was compromised...

it's always someone else that is wrong or evil...never Ben the almighty illiustrious TD thrower...2 Super Bowls is all that matters.

Yeah it's been beaten to death you and I can both agree, but you want to defend this guy for the wrong reasons...I have already said in previous posts he is not guilty, but that doesn't mean he wasn't wrong. Nixon was never impeached...so therefore he was not guilty of anything either...Never proven, but most Americans will all agree he was wrong.

Oh I am sorry Nixon never played for the Steelers...

my bad.

brothervad

[birtikidis]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

Snarky, I don't recall hearing any story from ben. I've heard a few from the accusers camp, but only that Ben and her flirted, made out and he felt she was too drunk to do anything else. that's all I've heard... of course, I don't go to the around the NFL section so i may be missing something.

[feltdizz]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

Sug... I don't belive either of them. But the fall out with the fired Sgt. in GA leads me to believe this whole thing was botched/messy from the time the bathroom door was opened til the next morning.

You have drunk sorority chicks and Ben with 2 off duty cops and a Sgt who called the chick a bitch and said she can't win so why bother.

That alone tells me something happened and with Ben's civil case still open it shows how stupid the guy is. Now plenty of girls switch the story to save face from embarrassment but it shouldn't have come to that to begin with.

Asking us to decide if Ben is innocent AGAIN is asking too damn much for some fans. We should be talking about draft picks and who will help us win games.

[ANPSTEEL]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

...
There is absolutely nothing in the record to suggest in any way that Ben was guilty of rape or even sexual assault (lesser charge). In fact, he appears to have said that he didn't give her the time of day- so who do you believe? Why?

How often do you find your head in the sand???

come on no evidence of sexual assault or rape??? (which by the way- as explained by the Georgia DA- sexual assault can and does include rape - so no, it is not a lesser charge.)

On the accusers "genital area" superficial lacerations, bruising, and bleeding were all in evidence - they are not indicators of some sort of "forced" sexual activity??

Additionally, in his initial comments to the press after the incident- Ben even agreed that they had ... I'm paraphrasing here- some type of sexual activity that was not consummated. He did not indicate what type of activity or what he meant by consummated- but it would seem clear that whatever act(s) took place, he did not ejaculate.

[Steel Life]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

With no DNA, no video evidence and no eyewitness accounts, the investigation was dealt its final blow on April 2.

Ten days later, Mr. Bright announced on live television that there would be no charges filed against Mr. Roethlisberger. His obstacle, he said, was not being able to prove that a crime was committed beyond a reasonable doubt.

Since we're highlighting the article, allow me to highlight the ONLY portion that matters. We get it, some of you want him to be guilty, it's over...you're beating a dead horse, let it go & wait for the punishment or trading that's to come.

Yeah that's all that matters....go root for him because he can throw TD's...

because football is the only thing that matters...hell some of you would defend if you were there and heard her say No...you would say she meant "No, don't stop" because you believe in what you want to believe no matter what.

It's always something else:

The media is out to get Ben
The girl is a gold digger
The sorority sisters needed to get their story straight
The Sgt on hand who had no bias whatsoever said she said no, regardless of additional info
No DNA...but who cares that the alleged crime scene was compromised...

it's always someone else that is wrong or evil...never Ben the almighty illiustrious TD thrower...2 Super Bowls is all that matters.

Yeah it's been beaten to death you and I can both agree, but you want to defend this guy for the wrong reasons...I have already said in previous posts he is not guilty, but that doesn't mean he wasn't wrong. Nixon was never impeached...so therefore he was not guilty of anything either...Never proven, but most Americans will all agree he was wrong.

Oh I am sorry Nixon never played for the Steelers...

my bad.

brothervad

First, you cannot put us "defenders" in the position of enablers just because it suits your perspective. I agree he f*cked up big-time in putting himself in a position like this again, but he wasn't charged & despite all our posturing - we don't know what happened & we don't know him. But what we do know is that the LAW deemed that there wasn't enough evidence to even charge him, NOT put him on trial & found him not guilty on some technicality - there were no charges because there was no evidence of a crime! Yet some of you presume to know more than the police & DA involved & make comments about his character when you don't even know him. You act as though the legal process has no bearing & that you have some moral superiority over him & some of us because you're somehow a better fan than we are - you're not. We are not morally bereft, or "win at all cost" types - we just think that the law has spoken & Ben has the right to resume his position with the team without prejudice, but not without reprimand. I think that a suspension is deserved...just not to the degree some are predicting. In not being charged, I don't think you can give him the same suspension as Santonio (4 games) & others without just cause.

[snarky]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

Snarky, I don't recall hearing any story from ben. I've heard a few from the accusers camp, but only that Ben and her flirted, made out and he felt she was too drunk to do anything else. that's all I've heard... of course, I don't go to the around the NFL section so i may be missing something.

Yes, he apparently told the cop that he didn't give her the time of day. But he later told his friend (back at his house or on the way home) that he "messed around" with her (this bit is in the police report).

[snarky]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

we just think that the law has spoken & Ben has the right to resume his position with the team without prejudice, but not without reprimand.

He does indeed have the right to resume his career but others have the right to look at the information available and draw their own conclusions and, if they like, call for him to be traded, cut, suspended or whatever. His right to continue his life does not supercede anybody else's right to speak their opinions of him.

For the record, I hope the Steelers keep him and give him a chance. If it was clear cut that he did something wrong (even without criminal charges) I would want them to get rid. But I don't see how anybody comes down on this with a firm opinion one way or the other. There is evidence of wrongdoing but it is not overwhelming.

[brothervad]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

[quote=Steel Life]

With no DNA, no video evidence and no eyewitness accounts, the investigation was dealt its final blow on April 2.

Ten days later, Mr. Bright announced on live television that there would be no charges filed against Mr. Roethlisberger. His obstacle, he said, was not being able to prove that a crime was committed beyond a reasonable doubt.

Since we're highlighting the article, allow me to highlight the ONLY portion that matters. We get it, some of you want him to be guilty, it's over...you're beating a dead horse, let it go & wait for the punishment or trading that's to come.

Yeah that's all that matters....go root for him because he can throw TD's...

because football is the only thing that matters...hell some of you would defend if you were there and heard her say No...you would say she meant "No, don't stop" because you believe in what you want to believe no matter what.

It's always something else:

The media is out to get Ben
The girl is a gold digger
The sorority sisters needed to get their story straight
The Sgt on hand who had no bias whatsoever said she said no, regardless of additional info
No DNA...but who cares that the alleged crime scene was compromised...

it's always someone else that is wrong or evil...never Ben the almighty illiustrious TD thrower...2 Super Bowls is all that matters.

Yeah it's been beaten to death you and I can both agree, but you want to defend this guy for the wrong reasons...I have already said in previous posts he is not guilty, but that doesn't mean he wasn't wrong. Nixon was never impeached...so therefore he was not guilty of anything either...Never proven, but most Americans will all agree he was wrong.

Oh I am sorry Nixon never played for the Steelers...

my bad.

brothervad

First, you cannot put us "defenders" in the position of enablers just because it suits your perspective. I agree he f*cked up big-time in putting himself in a position like this again, but he wasn't charged & despite all our posturing - we don't know what happened & we don't know him. But what we do know is that the LAW deemed that there wasn't enough evidence to even charge him, NOT put him on trial & found him not guilty on some technicality - there were no charges because there was no evidence of a crime! Yet some of you presume to know more than the police & DA involved & make comments about his character when you don't even know him. You act as though the legal process has no bearing & that you have some moral superiority over him & some of us because you're somehow a better fan than we are - you're not. We are not morally bereft, or "win at all cost" types - we just think that the law has spoken & Ben has the right to resume his position with the team without prejudice, but not without reprimand. I think that a suspension is deserved...just not to the degree some are predicting. In not being charged, I don't think you can give him the same suspension as Santonio (4 games) & others without just cause.[/quote:21ma6pzx]

you know what Steel Life? You are absolutely right...I should not classify you "defenders" as enablers.

Absolutely spot on. But that is exactly what you and many others are doing to those of us who are on the other side of the debate.

Let me take your original quote, "...We get it, some of you want him to be guilty,..."

Let's be clear...the defender side looks at all who ? the morality behind Ben f'ing up and say they are way out of line. They are haters.

I own (soon to be owned) a Ben Rothlesberger Jersey. I posted at how I marveled at the kid's talent.

No Steel Life...I want this nightmare to go away...but I can't overlook the information coming out that smells and feels like Rape to me. Not from a legal standpoint, but a moral standpoint.

I want this to go away, much like I want this recession to go away, but I am an adult and realize there are no easy fixes, and this will not go away for a long, long time.

I just suggest that both sides of the debate have their reasons for wanting what they want. I too believe in redemption, but to me the contrition must also be a part of the process...and I just don't see it.

Let's just agree to disagree, I have as much right to point out the points I highlighted just as you to counter them with the DNA, but you are guilty of the same thing you accuse me and others when you say "you want him to be guilty" when you state your position.

Regards,
brothervad

[Steel Life]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

[quote=brothervad]

With no DNA, no video evidence and no eyewitness accounts, the investigation was dealt its final blow on April 2.

Ten days later, Mr. Bright announced on live television that there would be no charges filed against Mr. Roethlisberger. His obstacle, he said, was not being able to prove that a crime was committed beyond a reasonable doubt.

Since we're highlighting the article, allow me to highlight the ONLY portion that matters. We get it, some of you want him to be guilty, it's over...you're beating a dead horse, let it go & wait for the punishment or trading that's to come.

Yeah that's all that matters....go root for him because he can throw TD's...

because football is the only thing that matters...hell some of you would defend if you were there and heard her say No...you would say she meant "No, don't stop" because you believe in what you want to believe no matter what.

It's always something else:

The media is out to get Ben
The girl is a gold digger
The sorority sisters needed to get their story straight
The Sgt on hand who had no bias whatsoever said she said no, regardless of additional info
No DNA...but who cares that the alleged crime scene was compromised...

it's always someone else that is wrong or evil...never Ben the almighty illiustrious TD thrower...2 Super Bowls is all that matters.

Yeah it's been beaten to death you and I can both agree, but you want to defend this guy for the wrong reasons...I have already said in previous posts he is not guilty, but that doesn't mean he wasn't wrong. Nixon was never impeached...so therefore he was not guilty of anything either...Never proven, but most Americans will all agree he was wrong.

Oh I am sorry Nixon never played for the Steelers...

my bad.

brothervad

First, you cannot put us "defenders" in the position of enablers just because it suits your perspective. I agree he f*cked up big-time in putting himself in a position like this again, but he wasn't charged & despite all our posturing - we don't know what happened & we don't know him. But what we do know is that the LAW deemed that there wasn't enough evidence to even charge him, NOT put him on trial & found him not guilty on some technicality - there were no charges because there was no evidence of a crime! Yet some of you presume to know more than the police & DA involved & make comments about his character when you don't even know him. You act as though the legal process has no bearing & that you have some moral superiority over him & some of us because you're somehow a better fan than we are - you're not. We are not morally bereft, or "win at all cost" types - we just think that the law has spoken & Ben has the right to resume his position with the team without prejudice, but not without reprimand. I think that a suspension is deserved...just not to the degree some are predicting. In not being charged, I don't think you can give him the same suspension as Santonio (4 games) & others without just cause.

you know what Steel Life? You are absolutely right...I should not classify you "defenders" as enablers.

Absolutely spot on. But that is exactly what you and many others are doing to those of us who are on the other side of the debate.

Let me take your original quote, "...We get it, some of you want him to be guilty,..."

Let's be clear...the defender side looks at all who ? the morality behind Ben f'ing up and say they are way out of line. They are haters.

I own (soon to be owned) a Ben Rothlesberger Jersey. I posted at how I marveled at the kid's talent.

No Steel Life...I want this nightmare to go away...but I can't overlook the information coming out that smells and feels like Rape to me. Not from a legal standpoint, but a moral standpoint.

I want this to go away, much like I want this recession to go away, but I am an adult and realize there are no easy fixes, and this will not go away for a long, long time.

I just suggest that both sides of the debate have their reasons for wanting what they want. I too believe in redemption, but to me the contrition must also be a part of the process...and I just don't see it.

Let's just agree to disagree, I have as much right to point out the points I highlighted just as you to counter them with the DNA, but you are guilty of the same thing you accuse me and others when you say "you want him to be guilty" when you state your position.

Regards,
brothervad[/quote:r487yfl3]
No problem Vad...I have suggested the very same & as I said in a previous post, I hope that this dies down soon & move forward with the draft & training camp.

[NJ-STEELER]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

sounds more and more to me like a jilted girl type thing to me.

she thought she was the girl ben wanted. ben turned his atention to girl in gray sweather dress.

how does she get the attention back, when the other leaves ...she tells ben lets go mess around in the bathroom..... things get hot, she's loaded and falls, ben sees how messed up she is and says this cant continue.

ben goes back to VIP. girl is jilted, finds out girl in gray sweather dress is sitting next to ben again and goes makes up this assault story.

think i even read form one of the girl witness statements that they didn't get along with girl in sweather dress (not positive).


gotta say the DAs words of no "probable cause" fit right in here

[Lebsteel]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

sounds more and more to me like a jilted girl type thing to me.

she thought she was the girl ben wanted. ben turned his atention to girl in gray sweather dress.

how does she get the attention back, when the other leaves ...she tells ben lets go mess around in the bathroom..... things get hot, she's loaded and falls, ben sees how messed up she is and says this cant continue.

ben goes back to VIP. girl is jilted, finds out girl in gray sweather dress is sitting next to ben again and goes makes up this assault story.

think i even read form one of the girl witness statements that they didn't get along with girl in sweather dress (not positive).


gotta say the DAs words of no "probable cause" fit right in here

NJ, I would seriously love for that to be the case. But, if it was, then what would Ben have to lose by telling the truth? I am sorry, but Ben not telling the truth, not saying anything specific and being told not to speak by his lawyers doesn't pass the "smell" test with me. If you really consider that also, I think you will agree that something doesn't seem right and that, to me, is very unfortunate, but real.

[eniparadoxgma]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

With no DNA, no video evidence and no eyewitness accounts, the investigation was dealt its final blow on April 2.

Ten days later, Mr. Bright announced on live television that there would be no charges filed against Mr. Roethlisberger. His obstacle, he said, was not being able to prove that a crime was committed beyond a reasonable doubt.

Since we're highlighting the article, allow me to highlight the ONLY portion that matters. We get it, some of you want him to be guilty, it's over...you're beating a dead horse, let it go & wait for the punishment or trading that's to come.

Yeah that's all that matters....go root for him because he can throw TD's...

because football is the only thing that matters...

hell some of you would defend if you were there and heard her say "No...Stop" you would say she meant "No, don't stop" because you believe in what you want to believe no matter what.

It's always something else:

The media is out to get Ben
The girl is a gold digger
The sorority sisters needed to get their story straight
The Sgt on hand who had no bias whatsoever said she said no, regardless of additional info
No DNA...but who cares that the alleged crime scene was compromised...

it's always someone else that is wrong or evil...never Ben the almighty illiustrious TD thrower...2 Super Bowls is all that matters.

Yeah it's been beaten to death you and I can both agree, but you want to defend this guy for the wrong reasons...I have already said in previous posts he is not guilty, but that doesn't mean he wasn't wrong. Nixon was never impeached...so therefore he was not guilty of anything either...Never proven, but most Americans will all agree he was wrong.

Oh I am sorry Nixon never played for the Steelers...

my bad.

brothervad

Waddup brothervad. I've always enjoyed your posts/stance/views/whatever. Just sayin'.

Anyhow, I agree with everything you wrote. I have declined to comment much on this whole thing until I felt like there was enough crap out there to make some sort of decision about it. I don't vouch for someone because I like their play. I also don't assume the worst. I consider myself somewhat rational.

After reading what I've read about all of this crap, my opinion is that there is just no way to believe Ben guilty of rape. I'm not saying just that it can't be proven. I'm saying that there is a bunch of talk from both sides, and after looking at everything I've seen I just am not buying it.

Sure, he probably shouldn't be buying shots for college chicks in a bar...because this crap may happen. But, what I'm interested in is whether or not he's a rapist. If he is, then I hope he gets buried under the nearest jail. If he isn't, then time to move on.

I faced this crap awhile back as both a Lakers and Kobe Bryant fan. I made my decision on that, which was that he didn't rape that girl. As far as I can tell, I'm making the same one now.

Not sure if any of the crap I just typed even relates to your post, but I felt like throwing my opinion out there for the hell of it lol.

[NJ-STEELER]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

sounds more and more to me like a jilted girl type thing to me.

she thought she was the girl ben wanted. ben turned his atention to girl in gray sweather dress.

how does she get the attention back, when the other leaves ...she tells ben lets go mess around in the bathroom..... things get hot, she's loaded and falls, ben sees how messed up she is and says this cant continue.

ben goes back to VIP. girl is jilted, finds out girl in gray sweather dress is sitting next to ben again and goes makes up this assault story.

think i even read form one of the girl witness statements that they didn't get along with girl in sweather dress (not positive).


gotta say the DAs words of no "probable cause" fit right in here

NJ, I would seriously love for that to be the case. But, if it was, then what would Ben have to lose by telling the truth? I am sorry, but Ben not telling the truth, not saying anything specific and being told not to speak by his lawyers doesn't pass the "smell" test with me. If you really consider that also, I think you will agree that something doesn't seem right and that, to me, is very unfortunate, but real.

\

because, in the end. he is still guilty of trying to have sex in the bathroom of a public club...thats not really going to endear him with many.Esp the league office

and he's guilty of putting himself in this position by trying to do such a thing a year after another (as nutty as it sounded) allegation of sexual assault.

i highly doubt any superstar mega rich football players have to force themselves on anyone (yes, i'm sure it can happen.... chumara). the reports said there were like 15 girls all gravitating to ben at the first bar they were at and they were all trying to talk to him thru willie (until willie had enuff of it).

i have to imagine something like that happenes everytime he goes out

[Lebsteel]

Re: Sorry Folks But Ben is Gone...

[quote=NJ-STEELER]

sounds more and more to me like a jilted girl type thing to me.

she thought she was the girl ben wanted. ben turned his atention to girl in gray sweather dress.

how does she get the attention back, when the other leaves ...she tells ben lets go mess around in the bathroom..... things get hot, she's loaded and falls, ben sees how messed up she is and says this cant continue.

ben goes back to VIP. girl is jilted, finds out girl in gray sweather dress is sitting next to ben again and goes makes up this assault story.

think i even read form one of the girl witness statements that they didn't get along with girl in sweather dress (not positive).


gotta say the DAs words of no "probable cause" fit right in here

NJ, I would seriously love for that to be the case. But, if it was, then what would Ben have to lose by telling the truth? I am sorry, but Ben not telling the truth, not saying anything specific and being told not to speak by his lawyers doesn't pass the "smell" test with me. If you really consider that also, I think you will agree that something doesn't seem right and that, to me, is very unfortunate, but real.

\

because, in the end. he is still guilty of trying to have sex in the bathroom of a public club...thats not really going to endear him with many.Esp the league office

and he's guilty of putting himself in this position by trying to do such a thing a year after another (as nutty as it sounded) allegation of sexual assault.

i highly doubt any superstar mega rich football players have to force themselves on anyone (yes, i'm sure it can happen.... chumara). the reports said there were like 15 girls all gravitating to ben at the first bar they were at and they were all trying to talk to him thru willie (until willie had enuff of it).

i have to imagine something like that happenes everytime he goes out[/quote:2j04kquh]
Exactly. Ben behaved in a very inappropriate manner and will be punished for it. I hate it, but it is a very unfortunate reality. My hope is that he is very contrite, learns from his mistake and never behaves that way again.