For all those talking trade

[AngryAsian]

Re: For all those talking trade

Just a notation....

After reading the posts on this and other threads, I am amazed at some people's perception of the "discussions" being rendered. I never have gotten one vibe that there's anybody on this board who wants to see their two time Superbowl Championship quarterback traded. And though I've sensed a great amount of disappointment from the fans on this board, I don't think anybody has outright said they feel Ben is guilty of anything but bad judgement.

Part of my personal pride in being a fan is the 'against the grain' approach this organization has taken in building its team. An approach that has consistently produced a competitive product through the decades. Its just a difficult pill to swallow when fans of other teams (who detest the Steelers, I assume because of our winning tradition) lumped our franchise QB with people like Ray Ray and Pac Man. I really could care less.... I'm a supporter of the team and not the individual... its not like Jack Lambert was a model of decorum and manners off the field, but I have to admit that for the first time, I have no real retort to the opposing fans' ridicule of this situation. The ridicule doesn't even stem from the fact that they believe Ben to be a sexual predator, but more so that he's a dumbazz, who needs to grow up.

Just wanted to clarify that there really aren't "NAY SAYERS" on this board... just some pragmatists who want their team to succeed and are prepared and willing to accept courses of action that would regain our championship form without compromising the core values of the team. It sounds like Ben will have an opportunity to right his ship... I hope it yields a renewal in his commitment to his profession while yielding more championships for the organization whose fans are the most devoted in the world.

[Lebsteel]

Re: For all those talking trade

Just a notation....

After reading the posts on this and other threads, I am amazed at some people's perception of the "discussions" being rendered. I never have gotten one vibe that there's anybody on this board who wants to see their two time Superbowl Championship quarterback traded. And though I've sensed a great amount of disappointment from the fans on this board, I don't think anybody has outright said they feel Ben is guilty of anything but bad judgement.

Part of my personal pride in being a fan is the 'against the grain' approach this organization has taken in building its team. An approach that has consistently produced a competitive product through the decades. Its just a difficult pill to swallow when fans of other teams (who detest the Steelers, I assume because of our winning tradition) lumped our franchise QB with people like Ray Ray and Pac Man. I really could care less.... I'm a supporter of the team and not the individual... its not like Jack Lambert was a model of decorum and manners off the field, but I have to admit that for the first time, I have no real retort to the opposing fans' ridicule of this situation. The ridicule doesn't even stem from the fact that they believe Ben to be a sexual predator, but more so that he's a dumbazz, who needs to grow up.

Just wanted to clarify that there really aren't "NAY SAYERS" on this board... just some pragmatists who want their team to succeed and are prepared and willing to accept courses of action that would regain our championship form without compromising the core values of the team. It sounds like Ben will have an opportunity to right his ship... I hope it yields a renewal in his commitment to his profession while yielding more championships for the organization whose fans are the most devoted in the world.

Yes, sadly, my reply to everyone here in Bungaland is, "Yep, apparently Ben is a real jerk who is not very smart." I can't condone his off the field actions, but because I am a diehard Steeler fan, I will continue to cheer for him on the field...at least until he is traded...

He may be as dumb as a box of rocks, but he still wasn't dumb enough to do something like this:

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

Re: For all those talking trade

From what Rooney said, it appears the Steelers will give Ben an opportunity to make things right. He will be suspended and the evaluation process will continue from there. However, I do believe he is on a short leash and all behavior will be monitored. Because Ben is the best thing since Bradshaw on the field...I will give him a chance to redeem himself and continue to support my favorite Steeler. If he slips up...I'm putting the Steelers first! No excuses...No explanation...You spent your last token.

[stlrz d]

Re: For all those talking trade

Just a notation....

After reading the posts on this and other threads, I am amazed at some people's perception of the "discussions" being rendered. I never have gotten one vibe that there's anybody on this board who wants to see their two time Superbowl Championship quarterback traded. And though I've sensed a great amount of disappointment from the fans on this board, I don't think anybody has outright said they feel Ben is guilty of anything but bad judgement.

Part of my personal pride in being a fan is the 'against the grain' approach this organization has taken in building its team. An approach that has consistently produced a competitive product through the decades. Its just a difficult pill to swallow when fans of other teams (who detest the Steelers, I assume because of our winning tradition) lumped our franchise QB with people like Ray Ray and Pac Man. I really could care less.... I'm a supporter of the team and not the individual... its not like Jack Lambert was a model of decorum and manners off the field, but I have to admit that for the first time, I have no real retort to the opposing fans' ridicule of this situation. The ridicule doesn't even stem from the fact that they believe Ben to be a sexual predator, but more so that he's a dumbazz, who needs to grow up.

Just wanted to clarify that there really aren't "NAY SAYERS" on this board... just some pragmatists who want their team to succeed and are prepared and willing to accept courses of action that would regain our championship form without compromising the core values of the team. It sounds like Ben will have an opportunity to right his ship... I hope it yields a renewal in his commitment to his profession while yielding more championships for the organization whose fans are the most devoted in the world.

I respectfully disagree. Look around and you'll see why.

[feltdizz]

Re: For all those talking trade

Just a notation....

After reading the posts on this and other threads, I am amazed at some people's perception of the "discussions" being rendered. I never have gotten one vibe that there's anybody on this board who wants to see their two time Superbowl Championship quarterback traded. And though I've sensed a great amount of disappointment from the fans on this board, I don't think anybody has outright said they feel Ben is guilty of anything but bad judgement.

Part of my personal pride in being a fan is the 'against the grain' approach this organization has taken in building its team. An approach that has consistently produced a competitive product through the decades. Its just a difficult pill to swallow when fans of other teams (who detest the Steelers, I assume because of our winning tradition) lumped our franchise QB with people like Ray Ray and Pac Man. I really could care less.... I'm a supporter of the team and not the individual... its not like Jack Lambert was a model of decorum and manners off the field, but I have to admit that for the first time, I have no real retort to the opposing fans' ridicule of this situation. The ridicule doesn't even stem from the fact that they believe Ben to be a sexual predator, but more so that he's a dumbazz, who needs to grow up.

Just wanted to clarify that there really aren't "NAY SAYERS" on this board... just some pragmatists who want their team to succeed and are prepared and willing to accept courses of action that would regain our championship form without compromising the core values of the team. It sounds like Ben will have an opportunity to right his ship... I hope it yields a renewal in his commitment to his profession while yielding more championships for the organization whose fans are the most devoted in the world.

[SanAntonioSteelerFan]

Re: For all those talking trade

I think the sentiments expressed in the TPM (Third Person Man-ifesto) are admirable, but have a hard time seeing how they work in real life.

Fire Holmes. Fire Ben. Fire Harrison. Fire Reed. Fire Spaeth. Who did I miss?

I think that takes care of it, now we've got only good guys on the team (till the next one).

Is that what people want?

[Slapstick]

Re: For all those talking trade

Well, I guess you could attempt to make it a "black and white" issue by saying that either you support "The Steeler Way" or you support "winning at all costs", but that's really just a bunch of crap and a very facile argument...

Let's take a look at the facts concerning two players still on the team:

Jeff Reed: cited for disorderly conduct and criminal mischief on 2/14/2009. Two misdemeanors. Reed pled guilty and paid a fine of $543.50. Whoop de do.
Cited for public intoxication on 10/18/2009. Reed performed 40 hours of community service and the charges were dropped.

Truly, Jeff Reed is quite the hardened criminal and by allowing him to stay on the roster, the Steelers have turned their back on "The Steeler Way".

James Harrison: Okay, this one is dicier. James Harrison was arrested for domestic violence in March of 2008. Charges were dropped in April after James Harrison completed anger management counseling and psychological counseling.

So, what has James done since then? Nothing. If giving someone a second chance is "winning at all costs", then so be it...but, again, that's a bunch of crap...

Now, let's look at two guys who are no longer Steelers:

Cedrick Wilson: Released in March of 2008 after being charged with simple assault, harrassment and disorderly conduct for assaulting his ex-girlfriend. On the surface, t doesn't seem to be too different from Harrison's case, right?

Until you realize that this incident took place two months after Wilson's ex-girlfriend was involved in a twelve-hour armed stand-off with police at Cedrick's house. She shoots a gun at police and he assaults her at a bar two months later?

Santonio Holmes: How many chances should the Steelers have given him? They dealt with three arrests, one of which was for possession of marijuana. Then, the guy fails a drug test and goes crazy on his Twitter account? I'm not even mentioning the alleged assault, because charges weren't filed...

He was given more than enough chances...

What does this have to do with Ben? I don't know...

I do know that in every case that Ben's case has been compared to (Ray Lewis, Leonard Little, Kobe Bryant) ALL OF THOSE ATHLETES WERE CHARGED WIH A CRIME. Ben has been (legally) charged with bupkus. When you are charged, the DA has evidence. When you are not charged, the DA has no evidence.

So, if there is no actual evidence linking someone to a crime, why must that person be presumed guilty? It makes no sense to me.

Three alleged sexual assaults have been linked to Ben Roethlisberger in the media (including the one from the douchebag lawyer on the radio show) but not a single charge has been brought.

I can only assume that Ben Roehtlisberger is the most gifted serial rapist in the world, able to force himself on all of these women but somehow not leaving any evidence...

I presume Ben's innocence for the same reason that I don't talk about believing in ghosts or poltergeists...I'm not saying that ghosts don't exist, I just haven't seen any real evidence to make me believe that they do...

[Chadman]

Re: For all those talking trade

Just to clarify- Chadman has never said he thinks Ben raped this girl.

Not once.

BUT- whatever he has 'done', is enough to incense the Rooney's, to make Ben apologise for his actions, to earn the ire of the NFL, etc.

There is 'something' there- we just don't know what.

It would seem the real reason there is no charge against him is that the 'victim' has decided not to follow through with the accusation.

There could be several reasons that she chose to do this- too many to go into detail about. But at no stage has ANYBODY other than Ben's lawyer say he was innocent.

Chadman's whole point here was not necessarily victimise Ben, but to show that the only way the Steelers can really get back to a position where they can truly say that character is of great concern to the organisation is to cut loose the bad seeds & breed a new generation of high quality character players.

If the Steelers can't do that, or if supporters can't see the merit in doing it- we should stop ragging on the Bengals & Ravens of the NFL- the Steelers are now well and truly tarred with the same brush.

So the question is (and it's a personal one), is that the sort of team you want to support? Or do you want that Steeler uniform to mean a little more?

[stlrz d]

Re: For all those talking trade

Just to clarify- Chadman has never said he thinks Ben raped this girl.

Not once.

BUT- whatever he has 'done', is enough to incense the Rooney's, to make Ben apologise for his actions, to earn the ire of the NFL, etc.

There is 'something' there- we just don't know what.

It would seem the real reason there is no charge against him is that the 'victim' has decided not to follow through with the accusation.

There could be several reasons that she chose to do this- too many to go into detail about. But at no stage has ANYBODY other than Ben's lawyer say he was innocent.

Chadman's whole point here was not necessarily victimise Ben, but to show that the only way the Steelers can really get back to a position where they can truly say that character is of great concern to the organisation is to cut loose the bad seeds & breed a new generation of high quality character players.

If the Steelers can't do that, or if supporters can't see the merit in doing it- we should stop ragging on the Bengals & Ravens of the NFL- the Steelers are now well and truly tarred with the same brush.

So the question is (and it's a personal one), is that the sort of team you want to support? Or do you want that Steeler uniform to mean a little more?

So how would you feel if the Steelers cut ties with Ben and eventually the story comes out that everything that took place was consensual? I don't care about the "ire" of the NFL...no one knows for sure what happened and just because people are stupid enough to take salacious reports of what happened that night (told entirely from the accuser's side) as fact does not mean the Steelers should be stupid enough to cut ties with Ben without knowing for sure.

As for other teams and making fun of them, some of us realize these kinds of things can happen to any player on any team so we don't point fingers at other teams...because eventually we'll have fingers pointed at us. The Ravens fan I work with hasn't said a word to me about this because he knows I've never given him a hard time about the behavior of any of their players.

[Chadman]

Re: For all those talking trade

Just to clarify- Chadman has never said he thinks Ben raped this girl.

Not once.

BUT- whatever he has 'done', is enough to incense the Rooney's, to make Ben apologise for his actions, to earn the ire of the NFL, etc.

There is 'something' there- we just don't know what.

It would seem the real reason there is no charge against him is that the 'victim' has decided not to follow through with the accusation.

There could be several reasons that she chose to do this- too many to go into detail about. But at no stage has ANYBODY other than Ben's lawyer say he was innocent.

Chadman's whole point here was not necessarily victimise Ben, but to show that the only way the Steelers can really get back to a position where they can truly say that character is of great concern to the organisation is to cut loose the bad seeds & breed a new generation of high quality character players.

If the Steelers can't do that, or if supporters can't see the merit in doing it- we should stop ragging on the Bengals & Ravens of the NFL- the Steelers are now well and truly tarred with the same brush.

So the question is (and it's a personal one), is that the sort of team you want to support? Or do you want that Steeler uniform to mean a little more?

So how would you feel if the Steelers cut ties with Ben and eventually the story comes out that everything that took place was consensual? I don't care about the "ire" of the NFL...no one knows for sure what happened and just because people are stupid enough to take salacious reports of what happened that night (told entirely from the accuser's side) as fact does not mean the Steelers should be stupid enough to cut ties with Ben without knowing for sure.

As for other teams and making fun of them, some of us realize these kinds of things can happen to any player on any team so we don't point fingers at other teams...because eventually we'll have fingers pointed at us. The Ravens fan I work with hasn't said a word to me about this because he knows I've never given him a hard time about the behavior of any of their players.

Just for one second- consider this- would the Steelers, Dan Rooney, Roger Goodall & the NFL make anything of this whole incident based on just newspaper reports?

Sure, we here on Planet Steelers react to newspaper reports, but come on- you think the Rooney's are basing this off what they hear on TV?

To simply say that this has all been blown out of proportion because of the media is somewhat.....hopeful. Media beat-ups are generally just that- beat ups. And teams, good teams anyway, treat them with the respect they deserve.

Whatever Ben has done is enough for the owners to be upset, and willing to take action regardless of the NFL's decision. Consentual sex with a stranger doesn't seem to quite hit the mark on the level of unhappiness, does it? Think about it- how often do the Rooney's make rash judgement calls?

We may never find out 'the truth', but there is more to this story than two horny adults losing their inhibitions one night, and regretting it later. If it were just that- the story would have zero legs & would never have gone this far.

[Slapstick]

Re: For all those talking trade

Actually, I do believe that the Rooney's and the NFL will be disciplining Ben expressly because of what happened in the media...

What is happening in the media is a huge black eye to the Steelers franchise as well as to the NFL...the media is using Ben's alleged conduct to sell stories and therefore tarnish the public image of the Steelers and the NFL...

So, yes, it is absolutely about media and public perception...

[fordfixer]

Re: For all those talking trade

Hmm....Chadman wonders how many of you would be howling for someone's head to roll if they were a player from another franchise?

Say for example, the 'murderer' Ray Lewis.

Come on, let's be honest- how many of you think of Lewis as a murderer? How many of you have thought- he got away with one? If nobody puts their hand up, Chadman will call liar, because there has been numerous occasions where we have often put the boot in on Ray.

How many of you have said or thought- glad I don't support the Ravens/Bengals? How many will admit it's because those organisations have a number of players on their roster with questionable character?

How many of you have said- the Steelers don't draft players with bad character? Or have thought that the Steelers 'do things better'? Chadman sure as hell has.

So, here's the point- Do we 'want' to be one of those teams? A Bengals/Ravens, low character, dubious ethics, letting player indescretions slide if it means the team is, somehow, better?

Or do you want to be better than that?

Do you want that fabled franchise that 'does things better'? Because Chadman can assure you, the Rooneys want that. It's the image they want the Steelers to portray- a higher class organisation.

Now, if we can still call Ray a 'murderer', even though he wasn't charged, and therefore we can use Ray Lewis as the beacon that shows the Ravens to be a low-class organisation- why can't fans of every other team do the same with Ben?

And if they can do that- how can the Steelers ever be viewed as a higher class organisation?

So, here's the thing. We can all stand here & say- we should give Ben another chance, and pretend that we believe he is innocent, and that the Steelers are still a class organisation.

OR...we can demand that the Steelers ARE a class organisation, and not allow their roster to be infested with players who have poor, embarrasing morals & behaviour.

We can't have it both ways- you either want to support 'the Steeler way', or you support 'winning at all costs'.

Fact is, if you support 'the Steeler way', you know in your heart that Ben should go the way of Santonio, and that Reed should be packing up too.

And if you don't feel that way- if you feel that trading a player of the calibre of Ben would result in too many poor seasons for your little heart to endure- then Chadman sure hopes you are not one of the stone throwers who live in those damn glass houses..

Sorry to break one of the rules.... FUCKING POST OF THE OFF-SEASON. This higher standard is the hallmark of the franchise. Surely nothing wrong in expecting the idealistic cornerstones that's the foundation of this organization.

[stlrz d]

Re: For all those talking trade

Sorry to break one of the rules.... FUCKING POST OF THE OFF-SEASON. This higher standard is the hallmark of the franchise. Surely nothing wrong in expecting the idealistic cornerstones that's the foundation of this organization.

Did we have those higher standards when Ernie Holmes was shooting at cops? Or when Justin Strzelczyk led cops on a wild chase that ended with him dying in a fiery crash? Or when Carlton Haselrig was arrested for drunk driving or allegedly assaulting a 7 year old child? How about when Jerome Bettis supposedly assaulted a woman? Or there's the case of Greg Lloyd allegedly putting a gun in his son's mouth and to his ex-wife's head?

And the list goes on and on.

The idea that the Steelers organization is somehow more pure or holy or has a higher standard is a myth propagated by fans who wish to feel superior. Sorry man, but that's the way it is.

[Sugar]

Re: For all those talking trade

Actually, I do believe that the Rooney's and the NFL will be disciplining Ben expressly because of what happened in the media...

What is happening in the media is a huge black eye to the Steelers franchise as well as to the NFL...the media is using Ben's alleged conduct to sell stories and therefore tarnish the public image of the Steelers and the NFL...

So, yes, it is absolutely about media and public perception...

It's all about the PR baby.