For all those talking trade

[Chadman]

Re: For all those talking trade

Thanks Asian...not sure about 'post of the off-season', but Chadman appreciates the support.

Sugar- you are entitled to your view of 'The Steeler Way', even if we don't share the same view. Please don't feel that Chadman was saying you are wrong- everyone has a different opinion on how a football team should develop it's culture.

JPN & DJ...Chadman will group you two together...here's the thing about this case. After the McNulty affair news broke, Ben denied all claims & said he was innocent. The Steelers visually supported him in this.

After Georgia...Ben hasn't actually denied anything. He said that sex was consentual, sure, but this is all different. The Steelers, as a whole, have not stood by him, they are not offering support. Dan Rooney, given the opportunity to publicly support Ben chose to say that he has no comment on the situation. Ben has apologised for....what? If he wasn't guilty of something, what is there to apologise for? He didn't apologise for McNulty, did he? The Georgia DA wanted to prosecute, in Chadman's opinion, but it seems that the wishes of 'the victim' were adhered to. Ben....was very lucky. His Steeler career is secondary to his personal life in this- he could well have been in jail. Most of you know I supported Ben's innocence when this affair broke. Still do- he isn't 'guilty', in the same way Ray Lewis isn't guilty. BUT- the reaction from the Georgia DA, the Rooneys, the Steelers & in particular, Ben, just leave a bad taste in the mouth. One that, regardless of being charged or not, isn't going to go away. For as long as Ben is a Steeler, we have a 'sexual assaulter that got away with it' in our organisation, much like the Ravens have a 'murderer'.

The Steelers drew the 'hard line' on Santonio Holmes, and Chadman applauds them for it- surely not an easy decision to lower the 'quality' of your athletes in order to maintain a certain level of 'values'. But if they don't at least explore the possibilities of similar recourse with Ben, the Steelers will add 'double standards' to the increasing list of 'bad character issues' within the organisation.

[Shawn]

Re: For all those talking trade

Hmm....Chadman wonders how many of you would be howling for someone's head to roll if they were a player from another franchise?

Say for example, the 'murderer' Ray Lewis.

Come on, let's be honest- how many of you think of Lewis as a murderer? How many of you have thought- he got away with one? If nobody puts their hand up, Chadman will call liar, because there has been numerous occasions where we have often put the boot in on Ray.

How many of you have said or thought- glad I don't support the Ravens/Bengals? How many will admit it's because those organisations have a number of players on their roster with questionable character?

How many of you have said- the Steelers don't draft players with bad character? Or have thought that the Steelers 'do things better'? Chadman sure as hell has.

So, here's the point- Do we 'want' to be one of those teams? A Bengals/Ravens, low character, dubious ethics, letting player indescretions slide if it means the team is, somehow, better?

Or do you want to be better than that?

Do you want that fabled franchise that 'does things better'? Because Chadman can assure you, the Rooneys want that. It's the image they want the Steelers to portray- a higher class organisation.

Now, if we can still call Ray a 'murderer', even though he wasn't charged, and therefore we can use Ray Lewis as the beacon that shows the Ravens to be a low-class organisation- why can't fans of every other team do the same with Ben?

And if they can do that- how can the Steelers ever be viewed as a higher class organisation?

So, here's the thing. We can all stand here & say- we should give Ben another chance, and pretend that we believe he is innocent, and that the Steelers are still a class organisation.

OR...we can demand that the Steelers ARE a class organisation, and not allow their roster to be infested with players who have poor, embarrasing morals & behaviour.

We can't have it both ways- you either want to support 'the Steeler way', or you support 'winning at all costs'.

Fact is, if you support 'the Steeler way', you know in your heart that Ben should go the way of Santonio, and that Reed should be packing up too.

And if you don't feel that way- if you feel that trading a player of the calibre of Ben would result in too many poor seasons for your little heart to endure- then Chadman sure hopes you are not one of the stone throwers who live in those damn glass houses..

Chadman you need to get an EFFIN GRIP!

Sorry...the original post cracked me up. Listen, I get ya. But, you have kinda done a 180 here and now you are off in la la land. This organization handles it's business and in the cases of proven wrong doing suspends and lets players go. The problem? No one has proven a crime with Ben. Shoot there wasn't even enough evidence to charge him. You are taking the word of a girl who initially said she wasn't raped and had a blood alcohol of .2 hours after her last drink.

Let me give you best/worst case scenerios with a trade...

Best-Ben was guilty...you got rid of a POS and you save the image of the franchise from Bengaldom.

Worst-While Ben might not have put himself in the best situations he was never guilty of a crime. He was actually victimized by two opportunists. The Steelers cut their franchise QB, don't win another SB for 20+ years and overreact to a situation in which no crime was proven. You traded away your franchise QB on the word of a couple chicks...one who was very drunk and another bragging about wanting to have Ben's baby. You failed to support one of your players and basically kicked him while he was down. You lose the support of your remaining players because your team doesn't go to bat for it's players.

I think the Steelers can gain alot of respect in this situation by enforcing their own strict in house suspension. That is the way to go in this particular situation. It wasn't like Ben had been charged/convicted of a crime, tweeted about wanting fans to off themselves or about his rape fetishes.

I believe trading Ben is overreacting to this situation.

[feltdizz]

Re: For all those talking trade

Hmm....Chadman wonders how many of you would be howling for someone's head to roll if they were a player from another franchise?

Say for example, the 'murderer' Ray Lewis.

Come on, let's be honest- how many of you think of Lewis as a murderer? How many of you have thought- he got away with one? If nobody puts their hand up, Chadman will call liar, because there has been numerous occasions where we have often put the boot in on Ray.

How many of you have said or thought- glad I don't support the Ravens/Bengals? How many will admit it's because those organisations have a number of players on their roster with questionable character?

How many of you have said- the Steelers don't draft players with bad character? Or have thought that the Steelers 'do things better'? Chadman sure as hell has.

So, here's the point- Do we 'want' to be one of those teams? A Bengals/Ravens, low character, dubious ethics, letting player indescretions slide if it means the team is, somehow, better?

Or do you want to be better than that?

Do you want that fabled franchise that 'does things better'? Because Chadman can assure you, the Rooneys want that. It's the image they want the Steelers to portray- a higher class organisation.

Now, if we can still call Ray a 'murderer', even though he wasn't charged, and therefore we can use Ray Lewis as the beacon that shows the Ravens to be a low-class organisation- why can't fans of every other team do the same with Ben?

And if they can do that- how can the Steelers ever be viewed as a higher class organisation?

So, here's the thing. We can all stand here & say- we should give Ben another chance, and pretend that we believe he is innocent, and that the Steelers are still a class organisation.

OR...we can demand that the Steelers ARE a class organisation, and not allow their roster to be infested with players who have poor, embarrasing morals & behaviour.

We can't have it both ways- you either want to support 'the Steeler way', or you support 'winning at all costs'.

Fact is, if you support 'the Steeler way', you know in your heart that Ben should go the way of Santonio, and that Reed should be packing up too.

And if you don't feel that way- if you feel that trading a player of the calibre of Ben would result in too many poor seasons for your little heart to endure- then Chadman sure hopes you are not one of the stone throwers who live in those damn glass houses..

[Chadman]

Re: For all those talking trade

This organization handles it's business and in the cases of proven wrong doing suspends and lets players go. The problem? No one has proven a crime with Ben.

Not all the time, it doesn't. James Harrison, anyone?

You are right though Shawn, Chadman has done a 180. To a point. If you remember- Chadman's biggest issue was actually with the media, not Ben or his situation.

The issue Chadman now has is that despite not being charged, it would most certainly seem that there was something untoward that happened in Georgia. Lack of evidence, change of heart, secret payments...whatever the reason charges were not laid, you know it in your heart- something was not right.

So this is Chadman's point- if we, or more importantly, the Rooney's, have had enough of the bad behaviour, you can't just ship out Holmes & believe we are sweet again. It would say more to the fans, to the opposition, to the NFL & most importantly to the players in the organisation, if the Steelers take the hard line on it's highest profile player.

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

Re: For all those talking trade

Thanks Asian...not sure about 'post of the off-season', but Chadman appreciates the support.

Sugar- you are entitled to your view of 'The Steeler Way', even if we don't share the same view. Please don't feel that Chadman was saying you are wrong- everyone has a different opinion on how a football team should develop it's culture.

JPN & DJ...Chadman will group you two together...here's the thing about this case. After the McNulty affair news broke, Ben denied all claims & said he was innocent. The Steelers visually supported him in this.

After Georgia...Ben hasn't actually denied anything. He said that sex was consentual, sure, but this is all different. The Steelers, as a whole, have not stood by him, they are not offering support. Dan Rooney, given the opportunity to publicly support Ben chose to say that he has no comment on the situation. Ben has apologised for....what? If he wasn't guilty of something, what is there to apologise for? He didn't apologise for McNulty, did he? The Georgia DA wanted to prosecute, in Chadman's opinion, but it seems that the wishes of 'the victim' were adhered to. Ben....was very lucky. His Steeler career is secondary to his personal life in this- he could well have been in jail. Most of you know I supported Ben's innocence when this affair broke. Still do- he isn't 'guilty', in the same way Ray Lewis isn't guilty. BUT- the reaction from the Georgia DA, the Rooneys, the Steelers & in particular, Ben, just leave a bad taste in the mouth. One that, regardless of being charged or not, isn't going to go away. For as long as Ben is a Steeler, we have a 'sexual assaulter that got away with it' in our organisation, much like the Ravens have a 'murderer'.

The Steelers drew the 'hard line' on Santonio Holmes, and Chadman applauds them for it- surely not an easy decision to lower the 'quality' of your athletes in order to maintain a certain level of 'values'. But if they don't at least explore the possibilities of similar recourse with Ben, the Steelers will add 'double standards' to the increasing list of 'bad character issues' within the organisation.

I don't know why you would group me with DJ. I know all the specifics of the cases and I was the one who just posted Rooney's interview. Ben is my favorite Steeler but the risk is to great and I'm a Steelers fan first. I would love to have him remain if we knew 100% he could change his life around. I stand behind whatever course the Rooney's choose. I hope they suspend him and monitor his progress. One slip...Show him the door. I think you got me confused with someone else.

The Steelers never supported Roethlisberger on any incident. They were concerned by his actions even in Nevada. Never did they say they support Ben. That wouldn't be a smart thing to do in case charges came forth. Ben never denied he had sex, he denied assault. Ben had consentual sex with her.

Ben is guilty of many things in Georgia. One is even chargable crime/misdemeanor but the DA won't pursue at the request of the alleged victim. Plus, the victim herself would be in trouble. One statement that came from the DA explains what the Rooneys are up against. "We are not condoning Mr. Roethlisberger's actions that night but we do not prosecute morals, we prosecute crimes." Dan Rooney doesn't have to follow that rule and he won't.

[frankthetank1]

Re: For all those talking trade

i agree you cant trade ben now. it would be more admirable of the organization if they got ben some help with counseling or something. this has to be a wake up call for ben. he must know that he dodged a bullet. i very much doubt he gets himself into any more trouble. if he does though and is accused of sexual assault for the thrid time there is no way he will still be a steeler. any more eff ups and i am on board with a trade

[ikestops85]

Re: For all those talking trade

Hmm....Chadman wonders how many of you would be howling for someone's head to roll if they were a player from another franchise?

Say for example, the 'murderer' Ray Lewis.

Come on, let's be honest- how many of you think of Lewis as a murderer? How many of you have thought- he got away with one? If nobody puts their hand up, Chadman will call liar, because there has been numerous occasions where we have often put the boot in on Ray.

How many of you have said or thought- glad I don't support the Ravens/Bengals? How many will admit it's because those organisations have a number of players on their roster with questionable character?

How many of you have said- the Steelers don't draft players with bad character? Or have thought that the Steelers 'do things better'? Chadman sure as hell has.

So, here's the point- Do we 'want' to be one of those teams? A Bengals/Ravens, low character, dubious ethics, letting player indescretions slide if it means the team is, somehow, better?

Or do you want to be better than that?

Do you want that fabled franchise that 'does things better'? Because Chadman can assure you, the Rooneys want that. It's the image they want the Steelers to portray- a higher class organisation.

Now, if we can still call Ray a 'murderer', even though he wasn't charged, and therefore we can use Ray Lewis as the beacon that shows the Ravens to be a low-class organisation- why can't fans of every other team do the same with Ben?

And if they can do that- how can the Steelers ever be viewed as a higher class organisation?

So, here's the thing. We can all stand here & say- we should give Ben another chance, and pretend that we believe he is innocent, and that the Steelers are still a class organisation.

OR...we can demand that the Steelers ARE a class organisation, and not allow their roster to be infested with players who have poor, embarrasing morals & behaviour.

We can't have it both ways- you either want to support 'the Steeler way', or you support 'winning at all costs'.

Fact is, if you support 'the Steeler way', you know in your heart that Ben should go the way of Santonio, and that Reed should be packing up too.

And if you don't feel that way- if you feel that trading a player of the calibre of Ben would result in too many poor seasons for your little heart to endure- then Chadman sure hopes you are not one of the stone throwers who live in those damn glass houses..

Sorry to break one of the rules.... FUCKING POST OF THE OFF-SEASON. This higher standard is the hallmark of the franchise. Surely nothing wrong in expecting the idealistic cornerstones that's the foundation of this organization.

Chadman ... way to lay it on the line. I think this organization has already made the choice that it is willing to accept bad behavior in exchange for winning. James Harrison being on the team is proof of that.

I think the Steelers try to do a cost benefit analysis on keeping the player. Get rid of Wilson, the under-achieving receiver and keep Harrison, the stud linebacker. Holmes took more analysis but in the end they didn't figure he would re-sign with us anyway so it would make us look better to get rid of him.

Ben's case though is very different. With Holmes, Harrison, and Wilson we KNOW they did something wrong. None of us KNOWS Ben did anything wrong. We might feel he did or assume he did but we don't know. I have a hard time condemning anyone for bad behavior without knowing they are responsible for it.

So, to get back on topic, how in the hell do you give up a championship winning QB when you don't know he's done wrong? No way do I trade Ben.

Ben might be an idiot but he's our idiot!!

[Shawn]

Re: For all those talking trade

This organization handles it's business and in the cases of proven wrong doing suspends and lets players go. The problem? No one has proven a crime with Ben.

Not all the time, it doesn't. James Harrison, anyone?

You are right though Shawn, Chadman has done a 180. To a point. If you remember- Chadman's biggest issue was actually with the media, not Ben or his situation.

The issue Chadman now has is that despite not being charged, it would most certainly seem that there was something untoward that happened in Georgia. Lack of evidence, change of heart, secret payments...whatever the reason charges were not laid, you know it in your heart- something was not right.

So this is Chadman's point- if we, or more importantly, the Rooney's, have had enough of the bad behaviour, you can't just ship out Holmes & believe we are sweet again. It would say more to the fans, to the opposition, to the NFL & most importantly to the players in the organisation, if the Steelers take the hard line on it's highest profile player.

I hear ya and know where you are coming from. If I knew Ben was guilty of a crime I would be first wanting to push him out of town. What I know...is something happened that night that didn't look good. Ben knew it, the DA knew it and the Steelers knew it. I don't believe it was rape. I believe it was "consensual" sex with a chick that was too drunk to give consent. I believe Ben paid her to make it go away at the advice of his attorney.

I do not believe Ben to be completely innocent of wrong doing. I don't believe he is a rapist. In my book, he has had all his chances. He will get no more from me. But, at this point I'm not ready to let him go. I hope the Rooneys feel the same.

[Dee Dub]

Re: For all those talking trade

I have to admit...I am very torn on this. I love Ben...have been a huge supporter of him before day 1. Many here will remember how I was flooding the Trib forum months before he was drafted on why the Steelers should draft. I did the same after wards repeatedly over and over and over saying he should start from day 1. But since the press conference from the D.A. I have have been feeling that maybe too much damage has been done. There is a huge part of me who wants to never get rid of Ben...but there is now a part that thinks maybe...just maybe...it's the best thing for the Pittsburgh Steelers.

And if say a team like the 49ers offered their two (13th and 17th), first round picks...well...that is very tempting.

[proudpittsburgher]

Re: For all those talking trade

To those making the comparisons I still feel likel there was a difference between Ben/Harrison/Reed and what Holmes did. After their individual transgressions, none of them followed up with the kind of stuff Santonio did. Tweeting that the team was going to trade him, saying nansty stuff like wanting people dead on tweets, etc. Maybe I have some fanboi glasses on, and I will be the first to admit that I hated some of Santonio's "look at me" gestures on the field, but with every one of them, they all shut up after they did what they did, they all made apology statements, etc. Look, I know none of those statemets were worth anything, but they didn;t thumb their noses at the team. Santonio did. Now, if Reed continues to have run-ins with the law/sheets dispensers, well, he'll be gone too. Harrison and Ben the same, but to me, these situations are playing out different, because of the people involved. Just my opinion anyway.

[Lebsteel]

Re: For all those talking trade

I pretty much agree with Chadman. If Ben is traded...to say the Rams, this scenario, though highly unlikely should be considered:

Rams give us their #1 in 2010 and 2011 and their #2 in 2010. We then trade down to #6 with Seahawks and they give us their #1 next year. So, we draft Eric Berry at #6, Kyle Wilson at #18 and trade #33 (from the Rams) and #52 to say, while we are dreaming, Atlanta who doesn't have a Rd. 2 pick, and draft Pouncey at #19. So, this year we get Berry, Wilson and Pouncey.

Next year we have three #1 picks (Rams, Seahawks and ours). With the 2011 picks we take our future QB, stud OL and DE: Andrew Luck QB Stanford, Gabe Carimi, OT Wisconsin and then Jared Crick, DT Nebraska. A huge fantasy, but even though I don't want to see Roethlisberger go, a scenario like this would definitely help the franchise in the long run...

[steelblood]

Re: For all those talking trade

Hmm....Chadman wonders how many of you would be howling for someone's head to roll if they were a player from another franchise?

Say for example, the 'murderer' Ray Lewis.

Come on, let's be honest- how many of you think of Lewis as a murderer? How many of you have thought- he got away with one? If nobody puts their hand up, Chadman will call liar, because there has been numerous occasions where we have often put the boot in on Ray.

How many of you have said or thought- glad I don't support the Ravens/Bengals? How many will admit it's because those organisations have a number of players on their roster with questionable character?

How many of you have said- the Steelers don't draft players with bad character? Or have thought that the Steelers 'do things better'? Chadman sure as hell has.

So, here's the point- Do we 'want' to be one of those teams? A Bengals/Ravens, low character, dubious ethics, letting player indescretions slide if it means the team is, somehow, better?

Or do you want to be better than that?

Do you want that fabled franchise that 'does things better'? Because Chadman can assure you, the Rooneys want that. It's the image they want the Steelers to portray- a higher class organisation.

Now, if we can still call Ray a 'murderer', even though he wasn't charged, and therefore we can use Ray Lewis as the beacon that shows the Ravens to be a low-class organisation- why can't fans of every other team do the same with Ben?

And if they can do that- how can the Steelers ever be viewed as a higher class organisation?

So, here's the thing. We can all stand here & say- we should give Ben another chance, and pretend that we believe he is innocent, and that the Steelers are still a class organisation.

OR...we can demand that the Steelers ARE a class organisation, and not allow their roster to be infested with players who have poor, embarrasing morals & behaviour.

We can't have it both ways- you either want to support 'the Steeler way', or you support 'winning at all costs'.

Fact is, if you support 'the Steeler way', you know in your heart that Ben should go the way of Santonio, and that Reed should be packing up too.

And if you don't feel that way- if you feel that trading a player of the calibre of Ben would result in too many poor seasons for your little heart to endure- then Chadman sure hopes you are not one of the stone throwers who live in those damn glass houses..

Sorry to break one of the rules.... FUCKING POST OF THE OFF-SEASON. This higher standard is the hallmark of the franchise. Surely nothing wrong in expecting the idealistic cornerstones that's the foundation of this organization.

Chadman ... way to lay it on the line. I think this organization has already made the choice that it is willing to accept bad behavior in exchange for winning. James Harrison being on the team is proof of that.

I think the Steelers try to do a cost benefit analysis on keeping the player. Get rid of Wilson, the under-achieving receiver and keep Harrison, the stud linebacker. Holmes took more analysis but in the end they didn't figure he would re-sign with us anyway so it would make us look better to get rid of him.

Ben's case though is very different. With Holmes, Harrison, and Wilson we KNOW they did something wrong. None of us KNOWS Ben did anything wrong. We might feel he did or assume he did but we don't know. I have a hard time condemning anyone for bad behavior without knowing they are responsible for it.

So, to get back on topic, how in the hell do you give up a championship winning QB when you don't know he's done wrong? No way do I trade Ben.

Ben might be an idiot but he's our idiot!!

You cheer chadman, but you don't really agree with him.

1. You don't know if Ben did anything wrong. Chadman certainly says he did.

2. You don't want him traded.

I'm not sure what you are applauding. Free speech?

[Slapstick]

Re: For all those talking trade

Ray Lewis had his day in court...

All Ben gets is a lifetime of judgment in the court of public opinion...

In the Ray Lewis case, he was charged and tried...

Ben gets all of the negatives without the opportunity to do anything to clear his name...and he'll most likely be sued on top of it all...

I'm not proclaiming Ben's innocence, but I do presume it...

[feltdizz]

Re: For all those talking trade

Ray Lewis had his day in court...

All Ben gets is a lifetime of judgment in the court of public opinion...

In the Ray Lewis case, he was charged and tried...

Ben gets all of the negatives without the opportunity to do anything to clear his name...and he'll most likely be sued on top of it all...

I'm not proclaiming Ben's innocence, but I do presume it...

Ben had a chance after the McNulty case to clear his name... a year later he chose to go in a bathroom to party (allegedly) and provided shots to a bunch of college chicks.

By having a 2 for 1 with SA Ben makes it hard on himself to get sympathy from some fans.

[birtikidis]

Re: For all those talking trade

I hear what chadman is saying. and I agree. to a point. I've coached HS ball for three years, and I developed my philosophy when it comes to character very quickly. I would rather lose with good kids, then win with troublemakers. BUT, I would really like to see a little more information come out before I start leaning in any direction. We haven't even heard from Ben other than a quick, nearly spur of the moment PC.