Arians vs. LeBeau

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  • rockonsteel
    Backup
    • Nov 2009
    • 215

    Arians vs. LeBeau

    A lot people have asked the question of why some of us want BA gone, but are willing to spare DL. I've spent a lot of time reading, posting and thinking about the debates going back and forth regarding whether to blame the offense or the defense for the season failure. I think there's is absolutely a fair share of blame to go around. We won't include ST in this conversation, although we all know they get a nice slice of pie as well. But, people have been calling for Arians' head, myself at the forefront of them. While we do acknowledge the defenses role in the collapse of the team, this season, others refuse to see the offenses role in it. But, the reason people are calling for BA's head and not so much DL, is twofold.

    Reason one is track record and resume. DL has a history of fielding top notch, championship caliber defenses, particularly in Pittsburgh, while BA has a history of running pass-happy offenses that don't necessarily produce when it matters most, save for 2008 season, and that's debatable. I'm a member of the "we won the SB in spite of BA" fraternity.

    Reason number two, is the defense's problems can be attributed to largely to personnel issues, from injury to loss thru FA to incumbent players performing at levels significantly lower than in the past. Those are not schematic and philosophical problems. In fact those things will expose any possible weaknesses in the best of schemes. You fix that by changing the personnel, not by changing the coordinator. OTOH, the offense's problems were not personnel. They have a ****load of weapons, who were healthy for the most part, most of the season. Many of them had career years. The problems on offense were with philosophy, gameplans, situational football and playcalling. Those things fall squarely on the shoulders of the OC. And that has been his MO. To fix those things, you need a philosophical change. IMO, you usually have to change the person calling the plays to achieve that.


    Hope that simplifies it for some of you guys.



    Rockon
  • Oviedo
    Legend
    • May 2008
    • 23824

    #2
    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    "track record" doesn't get us a single win next season. We don't keep players who can't perform anymore so why keep a coach? Not saying that LeBeau Can't do it, but he has alot to prove IMO next year to regain his reputation as a "genius"

    You can't say Lebeau gets a pass because of injuries and personnel issues. Arians has dealt with far more personnel issues than LeBeau over the past three season. The OL itself dwarfs any issues LeBeau has had to deal with. But again, LeBeau gets excuses and Arians gets the lynch mob.

    Also, don't underestimate that any personnel issues on the defense are magnified because of choices LeBeau makes with regards to schemes and complexity. It's his job to get the most out of what he has not force them into his predetermined schemes. Round pegs don't fit into square holes. This is why we can't seem to ever get rookies onto the field no mateer how exceptional their talents are, i.e. Troy P. That is a luxury teams can't afford in a salary cap controlled league.
    "My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"

    Comment

    • stlrz d
      Legend
      • May 2008
      • 9244

      #3
      Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

      Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

      We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

      (see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?)

      Comment

      • SteelAbility
        Pro Bowler
        • Oct 2009
        • 2149

        #4
        Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

        Exactly. The D problems have stemmed from key personnel losses. One of them, Troy, was a !%!^!@#%!#$ candidate for the 08 DPOTY for crying out loud. His replacement was both slow of foot and slow of mind. The other, A. Smith, was an (arguably) top 5 to top 10 run stuffer. His replacement was average at best. A huge chunk of the offensive predictability factor went down the sh*t can with the loss of these guys.

        The O problems have primarily stemmed from philosophical issues.

        One of these is totally correctable. The other is correctable but only up to a point. When there is a fundamental weakness you can only mask it for so long.

        Comment

        • SteelAbility
          Pro Bowler
          • Oct 2009
          • 2149

          #5
          Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

          Originally posted by stlrz d
          Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

          We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

          (see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?)
          This is NFL Overreaction Nation where you're only as good as your last fill-in-the-blank.

          I find that pretty funny to say the least.

          Comment

          • Oviedo
            Legend
            • May 2008
            • 23824

            #6
            Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

            Originally posted by stlrz d
            Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

            We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

            (see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?)
            Hope your right because above all else the Steelers winning it what matters. Hopefully LeBeau has some magic left. My uninformed and ignorant mind just can't figure out what it is when our defense is getting older and our young players can't get on the field.

            But let's not kid ourselves what killed us all season was exactly what the Cardinals exposed in the Super Bowl last year when we did have Troy. You saw it last February and then all 2009 and no adjustments, no improvements.

            I just have less confidence that Troy coming back solves all the problems. To me would could just fooling ourselves by painting over rotten wood. But we just have to wait and see.
            "My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"

            Comment

            • grotonsteel
              Hall of Famer
              • Jul 2008
              • 2810

              #7
              Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

              Originally posted by rockonsteel
              A lot people have asked the question of why some of us want BA gone, but are willing to spare DL. I've spent a lot of time reading, posting and thinking about the debates going back and forth regarding whether to blame the offense or the defense for the season failure. I think there's is absolutely a fair share of blame to go around. We won't include ST in this conversation, although we all know they get a nice slice of pie as well. But, people have been calling for Arians' head, myself at the forefront of them. While we do acknowledge the defenses role in the collapse of the team, this season, others refuse to see the offenses role in it. But, the reason people are calling for BA's head and not so much DL, is twofold.

              Reason one is track record and resume. DL has a history of fielding top notch, championship caliber defenses, particularly in Pittsburgh, while BA has a history of running pass-happy offenses that don't necessarily produce when it matters most, save for 2008 season, and that's debatable. I'm a member of the "we won the SB in spite of BA" fraternity.

              Reason number two, is the defense's problems can be attributed to largely to personnel issues, from injury to loss thru FA to incumbent players performing at levels significantly lower than in the past. Those are not schematic and philosophical problems. In fact those things will expose any possible weaknesses in the best of schemes. You fix that by changing the personnel, not by changing the coordinator. OTOH, the offense's problems were not personnel. They have a ****load of weapons, who were healthy for the most part, most of the season. Many of them had career years. The problems on offense were with philosophy, gameplans, situational football and playcalling. Those things fall squarely on the shoulders of the OC. And that has been his MO. To fix those things, you need a philosophical change. IMO, you usually have to change the person calling the plays to achieve that.


              Hope that simplifies it for some of you guys.

              Rockon
              My 2 cents on this issue..

              Bruce Arians is not great by any means....he is an average O.C IMO but to give Dick Lebeau a free pass this season is ridiculous. NFL will always be what has he done lately...I would say Dick Lebeau has done nothing. People bash BA for unable to adjust...tell me one thing wht adjustment did Dick Lebeau made in Defense this season????

              Are you not tired watching 10 yards cushion Defense on 3rd and 3 play?? Steelers play prevent D and get burned all the time.So many times this season players complained they did not get the play. Whose responsibility it is???

              People talk about injuries to Troy and Aaron Smith...With due respect to Troy but if your entire defense depends on a SS then i think this Steelers 3-4 D/scheme is a failure.You don't need Troy to get turnovers against Browns/Faiders/Chiefs/Bears. Steelers D made Cutler/Cassell/Brad G look like Joe Montana.I am not saying change to 4-3 because i am not aware what personnel is required for that but if steelers D can't overcome Troy injury then i blame Dick lebeau for not putting players in a position to succeed.
              What is the point of these complex schemes when these schemes suck.


              Another thing Aaron Smith is close to end of his career. The way Troy plays there is no guarantee that he will be healthy all season long. Dick Lebeau's so called complex schemes do not allow rookies to play. It is coaches responsibility to make playbook simple so that rookies can contribute.Do you think 2010 will be any better unless Steelers make a splash in FA???

              And if you are saying players (apart from troy/Lamar and James H) are not capable of making plays then Dick Lebeau get some share of blame since he would have given input to Steelers FO on what kinda players he want.

              I think Dick Lebeau's DB requirenment:
              Good tackler and good in run support. Ball Hawking ability optional or not required.

              No wonder Steelers CB could not get a single turnover in 15 games.
              Steelers Draft 2015
              Rd 1: Devante Parker - WR/ Kevin Johnson - CB
              Rd 2: Danielle Hunter -OLB
              Rd 3: Steven Nelson - CB
              Rd 4: Derron Smith - S
              Rd 5: Henry Anderson - DE
              Rd 6: Wes Saxton - TE
              Rd 7: Deon Simon - DT

              Comment

              • SteelTorch
                Pro Bowler
                • Jun 2008
                • 1361

                #8
                Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

                Originally posted by stlrz d
                Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

                We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

                (see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?)
                http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/310/torchsigoe6.jpg

                Comment

                • Oviedo
                  Legend
                  • May 2008
                  • 23824

                  #9
                  Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

                  Originally posted by grotonsteel
                  Originally posted by rockonsteel
                  A lot people have asked the question of why some of us want BA gone, but are willing to spare DL. I've spent a lot of time reading, posting and thinking about the debates going back and forth regarding whether to blame the offense or the defense for the season failure. I think there's is absolutely a fair share of blame to go around. We won't include ST in this conversation, although we all know they get a nice slice of pie as well. But, people have been calling for Arians' head, myself at the forefront of them. While we do acknowledge the defenses role in the collapse of the team, this season, others refuse to see the offenses role in it. But, the reason people are calling for BA's head and not so much DL, is twofold.

                  Reason one is track record and resume. DL has a history of fielding top notch, championship caliber defenses, particularly in Pittsburgh, while BA has a history of running pass-happy offenses that don't necessarily produce when it matters most, save for 2008 season, and that's debatable. I'm a member of the "we won the SB in spite of BA" fraternity.

                  Reason number two, is the defense's problems can be attributed to largely to personnel issues, from injury to loss thru FA to incumbent players performing at levels significantly lower than in the past. Those are not schematic and philosophical problems. In fact those things will expose any possible weaknesses in the best of schemes. You fix that by changing the personnel, not by changing the coordinator. OTOH, the offense's problems were not personnel. They have a ****load of weapons, who were healthy for the most part, most of the season. Many of them had career years. The problems on offense were with philosophy, gameplans, situational football and playcalling. Those things fall squarely on the shoulders of the OC. And that has been his MO. To fix those things, you need a philosophical change. IMO, you usually have to change the person calling the plays to achieve that.


                  Hope that simplifies it for some of you guys.

                  Rockon
                  My 2 cents on this issue..

                  Bruce Arians is not great by any means....he is an average O.C IMO but to give bad word Lebeau a free pass this season is ridiculous. NFL will always be what has he done lately...I would say bad word Lebeau has done nothing. People bash BA for unable to adjust...tell me one thing wht adjustment did bad word Lebeau made in Defense this season????

                  Are you not tired watching 10 yards cushion Defense on 3rd and 3 play?? Steelers play prevent D and get burned all the time.So many times this season players complained they did not get the play. Whose responsibility it is???

                  People talk about injuries to Troy and Aaron Smith...With due respect to Troy but if your entire defense depends on a SS then i think this Steelers 3-4 D/scheme is a failure.You don't need Troy to get turnovers against Browns/Faiders/Chiefs/Bears. Steelers D made Cutler/Cassell/Brad G look like Joe Montana.I am not saying change to 4-3 because i am not aware what personnel is required for that but if steelers D can't overcome Troy injury then i blame bad word lebeau for not putting players in a position to succeed.
                  What is the point of these complex schemes when these schemes suck.


                  Another thing Aaron Smith is close to end of his career. The way Troy plays there is no guarantee that he will be healthy all season long. bad word Lebeau's so called complex schemes do not allow rookies to play. It is coaches responsibility to make playbook simple so that rookies can contribute.Do you think 2010 will be any better unless Steelers make a splash in FA???

                  And if you are saying players (apart from troy/Lamar and James H) are not capable of making plays then bad word Lebeau get some share of blame since he would have given input to Steelers FO on what kinda players he want.

                  I think bad word Lebeau's DB requirenment:
                  Good tackler and good in run support. Ball Hawking ability optional or not required.

                  No wonder Steelers CB could not get a single turnover in 15 games.
                  Just what I have been saying all along and all valid points that most don't seem to want to rationally address.

                  Oooops. Got to go. The "Defensive Inquisition" led by the monks from the Order of St LeBeau just spotted me. Got to run fast now!
                  "My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"

                  Comment

                  • cruzer8
                    Starter
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 977

                    #10
                    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

                    Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

                    They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

                    That just doesn't hold water with me.

                    Comment

                    • Oviedo
                      Legend
                      • May 2008
                      • 23824

                      #11
                      Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

                      Originally posted by cruzer8
                      Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

                      They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

                      That just doesn't hold water with me.
                      What do you expect St LeBeau will do differently when he hasn't changed anything in 5 years? I'm just trying to find somebody, anybody who tells me how LeBeau changes and improves the defense beyond Troy and Smith will be back.
                      "My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"

                      Comment

                      • feltdizz
                        Legend
                        • May 2008
                        • 27532

                        #12
                        Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

                        Ovie is spot on... and funny as hell.

                        Something is wrong when IKE, Ryan Clark can't get one INT in 15 games. I think getting rid of Kill Switch was a bad move. He may have been undisciplined but that is twice as good as a disciplined yet sluth footed Tyrone Carter.
                        Steelers 27
                        Rats 16

                        Comment

                        • grotonsteel
                          Hall of Famer
                          • Jul 2008
                          • 2810

                          #13
                          Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

                          Originally posted by SteelAbility
                          Exactly. The D problems have stemmed from key personnel losses. One of them, Troy, was a !%!^!@#%!#$ candidate for the 08 DPOTY for crying out loud. His replacement was both slow of foot and slow of mind. The other, A. Smith, was an (arguably) top 5 to top 10 run stuffer. His replacement was average at best. A huge chunk of the offensive predictability factor went down the sh*t can with the loss of these guys.

                          The O problems have primarily stemmed from philosophical issues.

                          One of these is totally correctable. The other is correctable but only up to a point. When there is a fundamental weakness you can only mask it for so long.
                          How about giving Steelers O a better O-line and see what they can do???
                          Steelers don't have a single player drafted on O-line in Rd1-Rd2.

                          If D gets a pass because of personnel issue even when they play horrible teams why not Steelers O?????
                          Steelers Draft 2015
                          Rd 1: Devante Parker - WR/ Kevin Johnson - CB
                          Rd 2: Danielle Hunter -OLB
                          Rd 3: Steven Nelson - CB
                          Rd 4: Derron Smith - S
                          Rd 5: Henry Anderson - DE
                          Rd 6: Wes Saxton - TE
                          Rd 7: Deon Simon - DT

                          Comment

                          • cruzer8
                            Starter
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 977

                            #14
                            Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

                            Originally posted by Oviedo
                            Originally posted by cruzer8
                            Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

                            They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

                            That just doesn't hold water with me.
                            What do you expect St LeBeau will do differently when he hasn't changed anything in 5 years? I'm just trying to find somebody, anybody who tells me how LeBeau changes and improves the defense beyond Troy and Smith will be back.
                            You must not be paying very close attention then. He runs a lot of packages that get more LBs and DBs on the field with only one down lineman. He's constantly changing the blitz schemes too. Everything he does is to disguise and confuse.

                            The only thing I wish he would actually change is the cushion the corners give up on passing downs. I know he has a "bend but don't break, eventually they will make a mistake and we will capitalize" philosophy, but giving up a free 5-7 yards consistently is hard to take if the pressure isn't getting there on time. And actually, there were times this year where I saw Ike right up on the LOS at the snap of the ball.

                            Comment

                            • grotonsteel
                              Hall of Famer
                              • Jul 2008
                              • 2810

                              #15
                              Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

                              Originally posted by cruzer8
                              Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

                              They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

                              That just doesn't hold water with me.

                              No one is saying Dick Lebeau needs to go. But many people here who bash BA for 2009 season give a free pass to Dick Lebeau.

                              According to them only problem for Steelers is their offense,BA and Big Ben holding the ball too long.
                              Steelers Draft 2015
                              Rd 1: Devante Parker - WR/ Kevin Johnson - CB
                              Rd 2: Danielle Hunter -OLB
                              Rd 3: Steven Nelson - CB
                              Rd 4: Derron Smith - S
                              Rd 5: Henry Anderson - DE
                              Rd 6: Wes Saxton - TE
                              Rd 7: Deon Simon - DT

                              Comment

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