LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

[Oviedo]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

The point you are all missing is how hard it is getting to restock the 3-4 defense. You have a major problem at NT starting next season. This last draft showed how few true 3-4 NTs there are and now you have 12 3-4 teams all wanting the same type of players. You also have the issue of the time it takes to convert player to 3-4 OLBs from college DE.

Remember that we effectively have to ignore a significant part of the college defensive line talent pool that comes out every year because of the unique requirements we have for 3-4 DEs who played DT in college and college DEs that can convert to OLB. Not sure that can continue indefinitely as more and more teams switch to the 3-4 and want the same types of players.

As far as depth on the DL I think it is better than many may think. Remember that the only guy who really doesn't fit is Hampton and he is likely gone after this season. Kiesel would be a very good 4-3 DE as would Woodley. Bruce Davis is a natural 4-3 DE who could rotate to both sides to spell Woodley and Kiesel. Hood and Smith could play DT and Hoke could probably rotate in with them. You are really about 2 players short of a good game day rotation and have not yet factored in Eason, Kirschke, and the rookie Harris (natural 4-3 DT) plus you have Paxson and Clements on the practice squad both of whom are natural 4-3 DTs.

I have no idea whether they would every change and really don't care as long as they remain a top 3 defense. I just bring it up because it is thought provoking and a good off season topic because so much of the other stuff is boring. I would just caution never say never. Not because of our defense slipping but because it all goes back to the talent pool you have to draw from and how many times you can fish the same pond without all the big fish being gone. When you are the only guy there it is much better than 12 other people showing up and fishing the same pond.

[papillon]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

The point you are all missing is how hard it is getting to restock the 3-4 defense. You have a major problem at NT starting next season. This last draft showed how few true 3-4 NTs there are and now you have 12 3-4 teams all wanting the same type of players. You also have the issue of the time it takes to convert player to 3-4 OLBs from college DE.

Remember that we effectively have to ignore a significant part of the college defensive line talent pool that comes out every year because of the unique requirements we have for 3-4 DEs who played DT in college and college DEs that can convert to OLB. Not sure that can continue indefinitely as more and more teams switch to the 3-4 and want the same types of players.

As far as depth on the DL I think it is better than many may think. Remember that the only guy who really doesn't fit is Hampton and he is likely gone after this season. Kiesel would be a very good 4-3 DE as would Woodley. Bruce Davis is a natural 4-3 DE who could rotate to both sides to spell Woodley and Kiesel. Hood and Smith could play DT and Hoke could probably rotate in with them. You are really about 2 players short of a good game day rotation and have not yet factored in Eason, Kirschke, and the rookie Harris (natural 4-3 DT) plus you have Paxson and Clements on the practice squad both of whom are natural 4-3 DTs.

I have no idea whether they would every change and really don't care as long as they remain a top 3 defense. I just bring it up because it is thought provoking and a good off season topic because so much of the other stuff is boring. I would just caution never say never. Not because of our defense slipping but because it all goes back to the talent pool you have to draw from and how many times you can fish the same pond without all the big fish being gone. When you are the only guy there it is much better than 12 other people showing up and fishing the same pond.

What about the back 4? Are the athletes/players we have back there a fit for the 43?

Pappy

[RuthlessBurgher]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

Too bad there weren't message boards in the 70's.

Everyone would have been saying "Why would we ever switch to a 3-4? It will never happen. Our 4-3 defense is the greatest of all time! How can you ever top Greenwood, Greene, Holmes, and White up from with Ham, Lambert, and Russell behind them?"

[Slapstick]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

What about the back 4? Are the athletes/players we have back there a fit for the 43?

Pappy

Yes. The coverage demands in a 4-3 zone scheme versus a 3-4 zone scheme aren't that different...

The Steelers do have some man coverage packages as all NFL teams do, but they play zone for the most part...

[ramblinjim]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

3-4, 4-3, 2-5 who cares what we call it??? We've got players with positional flexibility that can be used in a lot of creative ways.

When you look at some of our recent top picks (Timmons, Wood, Hood) they seemed better suited for a 4-3. But then you have Harrison and Hampton are built for the 3-4 and those are our 2 most valuable guys in the system.

And then Smitty, Keisel, and Farrior all could work in either system, but they're all getting older.

Whatever we do, let's just put the best 7 guys on the field together and figure out how to use the best of their skills to the defense's advantage.

Well said Mr. Flippy. How often do the Steelers run a stock base 3-4 anyway without Lebeau's magic sprinkled in? This defense has so many wrinkles that sometimes it probably looks like a 2-5 or a 1-6 to the opposing offensive coordinators. If we go towards a 4-3 and we have four brawlers on the DL and 3 outstanding backers......I think I'll take that.

Could Harrison play Middle Line-backer in a 4-3? I'm just curious because I have visions of Mike Singletary if that happens....... I realize Harrison may not quite have the size but he has the "mean" to play that spot.

As long as our defense is feared, we can play a 2-5 for all I care.

[Slapstick]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

I've said this before, but the switch to a 4-3 wouldn't have to be the sea change that some people seem to think it is...the players' assignments don't have to be so different...

I wouldn't put Harrison in the middle in a 4-3...he is too good of a pass rusher...I would put him on the strong side so that he could rush off the edge in a zone blitz and because he is probably the Steelers' best tackler...

[Oviedo]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

I've said this before, but the switch to a 4-3 wouldn't have to be the sea change that some people seem to think it is...the players' assignments don't have to be so different...

Exactly. It would not be as hard as many think.

[stlrz d]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

3-4, 4-3, 2-5 who cares what we call it??? We've got players with positional flexibility that can be used in a lot of creative ways.

When you look at some of our recent top picks (Timmons, Wood, Hood) they seemed better suited for a 4-3. But then you have Harrison and Hampton are built for the 3-4 and those are our 2 most valuable guys in the system.

And then Smitty, Keisel, and Farrior all could work in either system, but they're all getting older.

Whatever we do, let's just put the best 7 guys on the field together and figure out how to use the best of their skills to the defense's advantage.

I know our D was good but I still prefer they put 11 men on the field. :P



Oviedo - I get your point about more teams switching to the 3-4 making it tougher to find players, but also keep in mind those teams have to identify and then draft the RIGHT players. The Steelers have excelled at this and there's no guarantee other teams will do as well.

When the Steelers had great success with the 3-4 in the 90s other teams made the switch to the 3-4 thinking they would do as well. They didn't, coaches were fired, they went back to the 4-3 and the Steelers just kept rolling with the 3-4.

[Oviedo]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

3-4, 4-3, 2-5 who cares what we call it??? We've got players with positional flexibility that can be used in a lot of creative ways.

When you look at some of our recent top picks (Timmons, Wood, Hood) they seemed better suited for a 4-3. But then you have Harrison and Hampton are built for the 3-4 and those are our 2 most valuable guys in the system.

And then Smitty, Keisel, and Farrior all could work in either system, but they're all getting older.

Whatever we do, let's just put the best 7 guys on the field together and figure out how to use the best of their skills to the defense's advantage.

I know our D was good but I still prefer they put 11 men on the field. :P



Oviedo - I get your point about more teams switching to the 3-4 making it tougher to find players, but also keep in mind those teams have to identify and then draft the RIGHT players. The Steelers have excelled at this and there's no guarantee other teams will do as well.

When the Steelers had great success with the 3-4 in the 90s other teams made the switch to the 3-4 thinking they would do as well. They didn't, coaches were fired, they went back to the 4-3 and the Steelers just kept rolling with the 3-4.

I hope that they continue to roll but I have a real concern about the ability to rebuild a 3-4 DL post-Smith, Hampton and Kiesel. It is the NT position that concerns me the most because I just think you have to be elite at that position and those players are fewer and fewer because college defenses are reacting to spread offenses and big run stuffers are not being groomed.

[papillon]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

So, let me see if I understand this as some have advocated. Because other teams are going to the 34 and finding NTs for a 34 will become more and more difficult the Steelers should consider a transition to the 43?

I would propose that as there is more demand for a specific position more college defensive linemen will begin to make themselves available to play that position and thus making it easier to find a quality nose tackle.

I would find it almost unfathomable that because Casey Hampton retires or is released that the Steelers would abandon the #1 defense and its scheme for a new scheme. That would indicate that Hampton should be the highest paid defensive player and he is not.

I don't see it happening while the Steelers are getting quarterback pressure from Harrison, Woodley and now Timmons to the tune of 26-30 sacks per year. The NFL is a passing league and if you can't defend the pass you may as well look to next year. The first step in defending the pass is quarterback pressure and no one did it better than the Steelers last year.

Pappy

[Slapstick]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

So, let me see if I understand this as some have advocated. Because other teams are going to the 34 and finding NTs for a 34 will become more and more difficult the Steelers should consider a transition to the 43?

I would propose that as there is more demand for a specific position more college defensive linemen will begin to make themselves available to play that position and thus making it easier to find a quality nose tackle.

I would find it almost unfathomable that because Casey Hampton retires or is released that the Steelers would abandon the #1 defense and its scheme for a new scheme. That would indicate that Hampton should be the highest paid defensive player and he is not.

I don't see it happening while the Steelers are getting quarterback pressure from Harrison, Woodley and now Timmons to the tune of 26-30 sacks per year. The NFL is a passing league and if you can't defend the pass you may as well look to next year. The first step in defending the pass is quarterback pressure and no one did it better than the Steelers last year.

Pappy

There are lots of different ays to pressure a QB...

Once LeBeau retires, if Tomlin and Butler (the heir presumptive, I suppose) are more comfortable running a 4-3, then so be it...it appears that the players drafted recently and resigned would be more than capable of succeeding in that alignment...

[papillon]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

So, let me see if I understand this as some have advocated. Because other teams are going to the 34 and finding NTs for a 34 will become more and more difficult the Steelers should consider a transition to the 43?

I would propose that as there is more demand for a specific position more college defensive linemen will begin to make themselves available to play that position and thus making it easier to find a quality nose tackle.

I would find it almost unfathomable that because Casey Hampton retires or is released that the Steelers would abandon the #1 defense and its scheme for a new scheme. That would indicate that Hampton should be the highest paid defensive player and he is not.

I don't see it happening while the Steelers are getting quarterback pressure from Harrison, Woodley and now Timmons to the tune of 26-30 sacks per year. The NFL is a passing league and if you can't defend the pass you may as well look to next year. The first step in defending the pass is quarterback pressure and no one did it better than the Steelers last year.

Pappy

There are lots of different ays to pressure a QB...

Once LeBeau retires, if Tomlin and Butler (the heir presumptive, I suppose) are more comfortable running a 4-3, then so be it...it appears that the players drafted recently and resigned would be more than capable of succeeding in that alignment...

If this is how the Steelers get to the 43 then, so be it. I don't see the Steelers in a 43 while D1ck Lebeau draws breath on this earth and he's the Steeler defensive coordinator.

Pappy

[Starlifter]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

nothing more than a total gut feeling BUT every year there's a rookie in the NFL that makes an immediate impact. Think Jevon Kearse, Kendrell Bell etc. One of those players that teams passed on that ends up having everyone ask 'why didn't we pick that guy?'. For some reason I can't explain, I think Ziggy may have a year like that......

Dear god, do we really have over 3 months until the opener?????.........arrrrghhhh.

[Slapstick]

Re: LeBeau dreams up a new defensive package...

If this is how the Steelers get to the 43 then, so be it. I don't see the Steelers in a 43 while D1ck Lebeau draws breath on this earth and he's the Steeler defensive coordinator.

Pappy

I agree 100%...but, I believe that Tomlin will be around much longer than LeBeau...