This should freak most of you out.....

[Chadman]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

Take a look at his bench numbers.

There are a lot of factors as to why some players don't put up good numbers and although it's not the most important trait for an oline man, it's still important.

If you aren't strong enough to keep d lineman off of you and can't move the pile in the run game, you aren't going to cut it.

I took him off my board when I saw how weak he was.

That's why he is a mid-round prospect (like Augustus Parrish, Gerald Cadogan, and Joel Bell) instead of an early round prospect (like Jason Smith, Eugene Monroe, and Michael Oher). I wouldn't risk using a premium pick on a guy with a glaring weakness, but nobody that you are going to get in the middle rounds is going to be perfect (or else they would have already been selected earlier). If they are not able to get an OT on day one, he'd be worth considering in rounds 4 or 5, I would say.

Only worth it if the player can improve on those weaknesses. I used to think that strength was something that a player can improve once they got in the NFL conditioning programs. I think it can, but a player isn't going to improve by leaps and bounds.

If we're pinning our hopes on a mid round OT then the coaching staff isn't taking the oline seriously. Doing that is what got us where we are today in the 1st place.

What? Super Bowl champions?

[Chavezz]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

Take a look at his bench numbers.

There are a lot of factors as to why some players don't put up good numbers and although it's not the most important trait for an oline man, it's still important.

If you aren't strong enough to keep d lineman off of you and can't move the pile in the run game, you aren't going to cut it.

I took him off my board when I saw how weak he was.

That's why he is a mid-round prospect (like Augustus Parrish, Gerald Cadogan, and Joel Bell) instead of an early round prospect (like Jason Smith, Eugene Monroe, and Michael Oher). I wouldn't risk using a premium pick on a guy with a glaring weakness, but nobody that you are going to get in the middle rounds is going to be perfect (or else they would have already been selected earlier). If they are not able to get an OT on day one, he'd be worth considering in rounds 4 or 5, I would say.

Only worth it if the player can improve on those weaknesses. I used to think that strength was something that a player can improve once they got in the NFL conditioning programs. I think it can, but a player isn't going to improve by leaps and bounds.

If we're pinning our hopes on a mid round OT then the coaching staff isn't taking the oline seriously. Doing that is what got us where we are today in the 1st place.

What? Super Bowl champions?

Super Bowl Champs despite the oline. If we had a decent oline, our offense would score 30+ a game and our D would be even better because they wouldn't have to come back so quickly after countless 3 and outs.

If our line was AVERAGE, we're talking about a top Steeler team of all time. That's how good this team can be imo.

Besides I was talking about where we are today in RELATION to our offensive line "woes".

Wickerbasket.

[Chadman]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

bad word head.





Just out of curiosity- how many OL positions need upgrading before the OL is acceptable?

[Chavezz]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

bad word head.





Just out of curiosity- how many OL positions need upgrading before the OL is acceptable?

Acceptable?

Two.

Colon has to go, he just hasn't shown that he's capable.

Stapleton. I don't know if he's got the bulk or strength to play RG. Might be a better LG actually. I do think he's going to improve but we can't wait for him.

Making those two improvements helps this team. My thought is that Kemo is a better RG and that was the Jets thought as well because when they were trying to sign him that was where he was going to play. So switching Stapleton and Kemo may solve some of the problem.

[Chadman]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

bad word head.





Just out of curiosity- how many OL positions need upgrading before the OL is acceptable?

Acceptable?

Two.

Colon has to go, he just hasn't shown that he's capable.

Stapleton. I don't know if he's got the bulk or strength to play RG. Might be a better LG actually. I do think he's going to improve but we can't wait for him.

Making those two improvements helps this team. My thought is that Kemo is a better RG and that was the Jets thought as well because when they were trying to sign him that was where he was going to play. So switching Stapleton and Kemo may solve some of the problem.

So you want to draft at RT or a LG in Round 1?

Could drafting a RT & sliding Colon inside solve the 'problem'?

[papillon]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

bad word head.





Just out of curiosity- how many OL positions need upgrading before the OL is acceptable?

Acceptable?

Two.

Colon has to go, he just hasn't shown that he's capable.

Stapleton. I don't know if he's got the bulk or strength to play RG. Might be a better LG actually. I do think he's going to improve but we can't wait for him.

Making those two improvements helps this team. My thought is that Kemo is a better RG and that was the Jets thought as well because when they were trying to sign him that was where he was going to play. So switching Stapleton and Kemo may solve some of the problem.

Hartwig is the worst offensive lineman the Steelers have, IMO. Last year was Stapleton's first year playing any significant amount of time. why can't the Steelers wait one more year on him? He may be the center soon. The Steelers have history of moving their futire starting center into the RG position for a year (Dawson and Hartings) before making him the center.

I'll be happy when the Steelers have a solid center. Mahan was deplorable and was so bad that the worst rated center in the NFL this year looked like an upgrade.

Pappy

[Chavezz]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

bad word head.





Just out of curiosity- how many OL positions need upgrading before the OL is acceptable?

Acceptable?

Two.

Colon has to go, he just hasn't shown that he's capable.

Stapleton. I don't know if he's got the bulk or strength to play RG. Might be a better LG actually. I do think he's going to improve but we can't wait for him.

Making those two improvements helps this team. My thought is that Kemo is a better RG and that was the Jets thought as well because when they were trying to sign him that was where he was going to play. So switching Stapleton and Kemo may solve some of the problem.

So you want to draft at RT or a LG in Round 1?

Could drafting a RT & sliding Colon inside solve the 'problem'?

Colon is not going to G. No one but message board GM's have ever talked about that.

I'd like Mack in the 1st to play G for a year and then move to C after that. I think we can get a RT in the mid rounds that would push Colon this year and win the spot next year.

So you'd have in 2 years

Starks Rook/FA Mack Kemo Rook/FA

I think an Urbik in the 3rd rd this year would be ready to go year 2. Also check out Sebastien Vollmer, I think he'd make a good 4th -5th rd pick up at RT. Let him sit a year and he's ready in year 2 as well.

So draft


1. Mack
2. Jerron Gilbert
3. Urbik
3. Macho Harris
4. BPA (WR, NT, FS)
5. Vollmer
6. BPA (WR, NT, FS)
7. BPA (WR, NT, FS)

Starks Urbik Mack Kemo Vollmer

I feel alot better about that line up that what we have now.

[Chavezz]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

bad word head.





Just out of curiosity- how many OL positions need upgrading before the OL is acceptable?

Acceptable?

Two.

Colon has to go, he just hasn't shown that he's capable.

Stapleton. I don't know if he's got the bulk or strength to play RG. Might be a better LG actually. I do think he's going to improve but we can't wait for him.

Making those two improvements helps this team. My thought is that Kemo is a better RG and that was the Jets thought as well because when they were trying to sign him that was where he was going to play. So switching Stapleton and Kemo may solve some of the problem.

Hartwig is the worst offensive lineman the Steelers have, IMO. Last year was Stapleton's first year playing any significant amount of time. why can't the Steelers wait one more year on him? He may be the center soon. The Steelers have history of moving their futire starting center into the RG position for a year (Dawson and Hartings) before making him the center.

I'll be happy when the Steelers have a solid center. Mahan was deplorable and was so bad that the worst rated center in the NFL this year looked like an upgrade.

Pappy

I'm not sure about Stapletons strength, he got walked back a little too often at G for me to feel comfortable with him at C.

The C has to be able to handle, Ngata, Rogers and possibly BJ Raji if the Bengals take him. That's 6 games where we have a top end NT matched up on Stapleton. Not something I'd call a favorable match up for us.

[papillon]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

bad word head.





Just out of curiosity- how many OL positions need upgrading before the OL is acceptable?

Acceptable?

Two.

Colon has to go, he just hasn't shown that he's capable.

Stapleton. I don't know if he's got the bulk or strength to play RG. Might be a better LG actually. I do think he's going to improve but we can't wait for him.

Making those two improvements helps this team. My thought is that Kemo is a better RG and that was the Jets thought as well because when they were trying to sign him that was where he was going to play. So switching Stapleton and Kemo may solve some of the problem.

Hartwig is the worst offensive lineman the Steelers have, IMO. Last year was Stapleton's first year playing any significant amount of time. why can't the Steelers wait one more year on him? He may be the center soon. The Steelers have history of moving their futire starting center into the RG position for a year (Dawson and Hartings) before making him the center.

I'll be happy when the Steelers have a solid center. Mahan was deplorable and was so bad that the worst rated center in the NFL this year looked like an upgrade.

Pappy

I'm not sure about Stapletons strength, he got walked back a little too often at G for me to feel comfortable with him at C.

The C has to be able to handle, Ngata, Rogers and possibly BJ Raji if the Bengals take him. That's 6 games where we have a top end NT matched up on Stapleton. Not something I'd call a favorable match up for us.

Is Hartwig any better? He seemed to struggle with the big NTs as well. Stapleton's college position was center and Ray Rice seemed to have a great deal of success running the football.

It's still absolutely amazing to me that the Steelers managed to win the Super Bowl this year with the way the o-line performed at times and the lack of a good punter and punt returner.

Pappy

[buckeyehoppy]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

If they are comparing him to Max Starks I guess we will sign him to a 1-2 yr contract worth 20 million.

CHA-CHING...$$$$$$$!!!

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

It's still absolutely amazing to me that the Steelers managed to win the Super Bowl this year with the way the o-line performed

Its interesting, but let us also look at this from a "glass half full" perspective:

LT Starks: Played decently when thrust into duty. Other than a brief stint in '07 and '07 TC he has not played here since college. He should just be entering his prime now - 27 years old entering his sixth year. Prognosis - not much chance he regresses and several factors point to potential for improvement.

LG Kemo: Most of us agree that he did not play well last year, which is a good sign moving forward. That means that there is nowhere to go but up. 26 years old and after watching for several years he now has a year of starting experience. The Jets saw enough out of him so that they wanted to bring him in to replace Moore, and then signed Moore back for less money than they had offered Kemo. The Steelers saw enough so that they also were willing to pay to bring him back. Prognosis - A young talented player whose biggest weaknesses seem to be between his ears. He should improve, although it may be a slow process.

C Hartwig: The guy has been around the block a few times, and what you see should be what you get. The biggest thing that he had working in his favor is that he is not Sean Mahan. The guy is 30 and in the last year of his contract. Prognosis - He may regress a bit as age catches up, or he might show slight improvement in his second year in the system. More than likely there will be little change in his play as he holds the spot down for one more year. However, we may have less tolerance for his poor play as the memories of Mahan fade away a bit each year.

RG Stapleton: Like Kemo, first year starter who looked quite shaky at times. However, he is a couple of years younger and was forced into the lineup due to injury. Prognosis - No reason to believe that he will regress either. Normal reason dictates that there should be an upswing with one year of experience and age. He is also the most likely OL to be beaten out in camp, so that could also signal improvement in the position.

RT Colon: See comments regarding Kemo and Stapleton. Young guy who underperformed, to me he was our worst lineman. However, we are not looking at how bad he was last year, just how he can improve. If he could only cut down on those false starts and holds then he will be vastly improved. Add in a slight improvement based on experience and age and he could be our most improved lineman in '09. After all, when you are stuck in the basement, there is only one direction to go.

[papillon]

Re: This should freak most of you out.....

It's still absolutely amazing to me that the Steelers managed to win the Super Bowl this year with the way the o-line performed

Its interesting, but let us also look at this from a "glass half full" perspective:

LT Starks: Played decently when thrust into duty. Other than a brief stint in '07 and '07 TC he has not played here since college. He should just be entering his prime now - 27 years old entering his sixth year. Prognosis - not much chance he regresses and several factors point to potential for improvement.

LG Kemo: Most of us agree that he did not play well last year, which is a good sign moving forward. That means that there is nowhere to go but up. 26 years old and after watching for several years he now has a year of starting experience. The Jets saw enough out of him so that they wanted to bring him in to replace Moore, and then signed Moore back for less money than they had offered Kemo. The Steelers saw enough so that they also were willing to pay to bring him back. Prognosis - A young talented player whose biggest weaknesses seem to be between his ears. He should improve, although it may be a slow process.

C Hartwig: The guy has been around the block a few times, and what you see should be what you get. The biggest thing that he had working in his favor is that he is not Sean Mahan. The guy is 30 and in the last year of his contract. Prognosis - He may regress a bit as age catches up, or he might show slight improvement in his second year in the system. More than likely there will be little change in his play as he holds the spot down for one more year. However, we may have less tolerance for his poor play as the memories of Mahan fade away a bit each year.

RG Stapleton: Like Kemo, first year starter who looked quite shaky at times. However, he is a couple of years younger and was forced into the lineup due to injury. Prognosis - No reason to believe that he will regress either. Normal reason dictates that there should be an upswing with one year of experience and age. He is also the most likely OL to be beaten out in camp, so that could also signal improvement in the position.

RT Colon: See comments regarding Kemo and Stapleton. Young guy who underperformed, to me he was our worst lineman. However, we are not looking at how bad he was last year, just how he can improve. If he could only cut down on those false starts and holds then he will be vastly improved. Add in a slight improvement based on experience and age and he could be our most improved lineman in '09. After all, when you are stuck in the basement, there is only one direction to go.

I agree with you 100% and I don't believe that Ben and the defense can continually bail out the offensive line on a regular enough basis to win another Super Bowl. This is a Super Bowl quality team and I don't believe they can duplicate last year's feat of winning games by leaning on Ben every time something goes wrong with the offense.

Ben and the defense were simply amazing last year at winning games that appeared to be lost. They were able to overcome a subpar punter, an inconsistent running game and a line that was as inconsistent as ever there was. Hopefully, as you state, the young offensive linemen will improve and work together and many of the mental mistakes that wreaked havoc will be eliminated.

Pappy