Art 2/Steelers take on Floyd murder

[NorthCoast]

Well, it’s because you are a public servant being paid with taxpayers money.


politicians are trashed and joked on TV and called names by people who don’t like or agree with them.

According to the BLS, wages for police officers range ~$17 to ~$50 / hour. Can't be easy finding people that are willing to risk their lives each day for starting pay that is about 20% above the federal poverty level. Maybe get a few guys that like to play with guns, tasers, and handcuffs. Hopefully get a few that feel it's their duty or vocation. Kinda like teachers in a lot of ways.

[flippy]

According to the BLS, wages for police officers range ~$17 to ~$50 / hour. Can't be easy finding people that are willing to risk their lives each day for starting pay that is about 20% above the federal poverty level. Maybe get a few guys that like to play with guns, tasers, and handcuffs. Hopefully get a few that feel it's their duty or vocation. Kinda like teachers in a lot of ways.

There are some people that believe police and prisons should be abolished.

Sounds crazy the first time you hear it, but if you put some thought into the purpose of police and prisons, there are a lot of things that could be more beneficial investments by society that would help people and lead us to less crime.

From some of what I've read, prisons were created as an alternative to capital punishment. Modern prisons were created 100s of years ago as a more just system. They were created so we didn't have to kill everyone that did something little wrong. Fast forward to today and there are probably better ways to deter crime and help rehab people to help them succeed in life. There's lots of examples of people helping people. And I think a good analogy is generally people that grow up in a loving home and our well nurtured and supported generally don't end up in prison. If there were ways we could nurture and support everyone and provide hope for people, it's likely very few people would even need to go to prison in the first place. There are societies in the world that respect life and don't murder or commit nearly as many crimes as we do. We should try to copy them and evolve to new approaches here.

On the police front, some forces in the US have their roots in policing slaves in the south to prevent an uprising, to catch runaways, etc. It's a pretty messed up charter that lead to some of the patrols in the southern states especially. In some ways, that likely was a foundation of many of the hidden prejudices we hear about today. Again if we can be more supportive and create opportunities for people throughout our society, there's no need to police any more. Perhaps we need more community counselors or better leadership that brings people and communities together instead of driving division in so many ways on so many levels.

I've volunteered to help people in prisons for many years and most are horrible institutions that really don't help the majority. There's a lot of good intentioned people who work every day to make a difference, but the recidivism rates in most places are off the charts. Usually once you're in the system, odds are you're coming back again and again and again. The goal of the system is to rehabilitate people, but the whole implementation of the system is set up to work against rehabilitation from the start.

Most think of sending people to prison as a punishment. In a perfect world police would intervene to de-escalate bad situations with the ultimate goal of helping both the criminal and the victim. Responding with violence to violence is never going to make anything better. As a society that just reinforces we're all criminals on some level. The whole legal system should help people negotiate toward forgiveness. Help people find a positive path to retribution that helps heal everyone involved.

Instead we live with systems that are broken that end up frustrating everyone. It's ok to modernize stuff and I lean toward the side of we should really consider abolishing police and prisons as they stand today. And just like they were originally created to be a more compassionate system than just killing someone for petty crimes, we should take an honest look at their current limitations and strive to create better systems.

As an example, why put anyone in prison ever when you could utilize technology to track someone and help prevent them from being in places or situations which are not good for them? Seems more cost effective to just put a tracker on someone and don't allow them some of the same freedoms they had prior to committing a crime. Kinda like parents monitoring their kids.

[whatever]

Because they are the most vulnerable at that age.

I was in college when I had most of my run ins with cops. But I also had an Uncle who was a high profile lawyer so while they thought they had an easy mark they were always shocked when my uncle called them.

Now, if I didn’t have that connection it would’ve been fines and public defenders and probably pleading out to lesser charges for something I didn’t do just to keep my record clean or stay out of jail.

How about that is the age range that statically commit violent acts?

[whatever]

Well, it’s because you are a public servant being paid with taxpayers money.


politicians are trashed and joked on TV and called names by people who don’t like or agree with them.

So you are saying it's alright to act that way towards cops because taxpayers pay their wages?
And you wonder why there are issues.
I don't recall many politicians being killed just because they are politicians.
I doubt parents raise their kids to disrespect, hate and abuse politicians.

[whatever]

There are some people that believe police and prisons should be abolished.

Sounds crazy the first time you hear it, but if you put some thought into the purpose of police and prisons, there are a lot of things that could be more beneficial investments by society that would help people and lead us to less crime.

From some of what I've read, prisons were created as an alternative to capital punishment. Modern prisons were created 100s of years ago as a more just system. They were created so we didn't have to kill everyone that did something little wrong. Fast forward to today and there are probably better ways to deter crime and help rehab people to help them succeed in life. There's lots of examples of people helping people. And I think a good analogy is generally people that grow up in a loving home and our well nurtured and supported generally don't end up in prison. If there were ways we could nurture and support everyone and provide hope for people, it's likely very few people would even need to go to prison in the first place. There are societies in the world that respect life and don't murder or commit nearly as many crimes as we do. We should try to copy them and evolve to new approaches here.

On the police front, some forces in the US have their roots in policing slaves in the south to prevent an uprising, to catch runaways, etc. It's a pretty messed up charter that lead to some of the patrols in the southern states especially. In some ways, that likely was a foundation of many of the hidden prejudices we hear about today. Again if we can be more supportive and create opportunities for people throughout our society, there's no need to police any more. Perhaps we need more community counselors or better leadership that brings people and communities together instead of driving division in so many ways on so many levels.

I've volunteered to help people in prisons for many years and most are horrible institutions that really don't help the majority. There's a lot of good intentioned people who work every day to make a difference, but the recidivism rates in most places are off the charts. Usually once you're in the system, odds are you're coming back again and again and again. The goal of the system is to rehabilitate people, but the whole implementation of the system is set up to work against rehabilitation from the start.

Most think of sending people to prison as a punishment. In a perfect world police would intervene to de-escalate bad situations with the ultimate goal of helping both the criminal and the victim. Responding with violence to violence is never going to make anything better. As a society that just reinforces we're all criminals on some level. The whole legal system should help people negotiate toward forgiveness. Help people find a positive path to retribution that helps heal everyone involved.

Instead we live with systems that are broken that end up frustrating everyone. It's ok to modernize stuff and I lean toward the side of we should really consider abolishing police and prisons as they stand today. And just like they were originally created to be a more compassionate system than just killing someone for petty crimes, we should take an honest look at their current limitations and strive to create better systems.

As an example, why put anyone in prison ever when you could utilize technology to track someone and help prevent them from being in places or situations which are not good for them? Seems more cost effective to just put a tracker on someone and don't allow them some of the same freedoms they had prior to committing a crime. Kinda like parents monitoring their kids.

I can't believe you typed that whole thing just to be totally sarcastic.
Tell me you don't believe that people can kill whoever they want without any accountability except to be monitored.
There are enough resources in prisons to rehabilitate, if they want to be.
For those that don't, they are there to keep society safe from them for a while.

[flippy]

Honestly, this is a good discussion and the type of conversation that the country (I'll include Canada) should be having. Not the post a black square on Instagram BS, not the "you disagree with my opinion so you are racist" that I read so much of, not the shout at the world but not listen mentality that so many people have.

This is some of the best conversation I've seen online and who would have thought it would come on a Steelers message board? Perhaps it is because we already have a tie that binds us.

Probably a combo of things. We’re old farts who aren’t limited to 140 characters. Yet we’re not old enough to be obsessed with Fox News or MSNBC.

Just regular old middle aged people that have more important things to argue about like the Steelers. We argue about the meaningful stuff

[NorthCoast]

I can't believe you typed that whole thing just to be totally sarcastic.
Tell me you don't believe that people can kill whoever they want without any accountability except to be monitored.
There are enough resources in prisons to rehabilitate, if they want to be.
For those that don't, they are there to keep society safe from them for a while.

Yep. I have a friend who said his brother was just a plain PoS. He would go to bars at night seeking out random guys he would start a fight with, mean stuff like fist fights just to mess up the other guy. Didn't care.
I am a firm believer in the goodness of humankind, but man, there are just some guys that are wired wrong. The only place they belong is in a jail cell.

[whatever]

Yep. I have a friend who said his brother was just a plain PoS. He would go to bars at night seeking out random guys he would start a fight with, mean stuff like fist fights just to mess up the other guy. Didn't care.
I am a firm believer in the goodness of humankind, but man, there are just some guys that are wired wrong. The only place they belong is in a jail cell.

Look at south chicago and tell me what would happen if you took the cops away for a few weeks and told them that no matter what they do, the most they will get is some be nice talk and a tether.

[feltdizz]

Yep. I have a friend who said his brother was just a plain PoS. He would go to bars at night seeking out random guys he would start a fight with, mean stuff like fist fights just to mess up the other guy. Didn't care.
I am a firm believer in the goodness of humankind, but man, there are just some guys that are wired wrong. The only place they belong is in a jail cell.

the problem is a lot of prisons are private. Some of them aren’t interested in rehabilitating prisoners. They are mostly interested in turning a profit.

[whatever]

Yep. I have a friend who said his brother was just a plain PoS. He would go to bars at night seeking out random guys he would start a fight with, mean stuff like fist fights just to mess up the other guy. Didn't care.
I am a firm believer in the goodness of humankind, but man, there are just some guys that are wired wrong. The only place they belong is in a jail cell.

Can you imagine your child getting molested and having the anti police people tell you to 'get over it'. 'its not his fault, he just needs some support from the community.'

[whatever]

the problem is a lot of prisons are private. Some of them aren’t interested in rehabilitating prisoners. They are mostly interested in turning a profit.

Prisons don't rehabilitate prisoners. Prisoners choose to rehabilitate themselves.
No different than sending your kid to school. The teacher can't force them to learn.

[feltdizz]

Prisons don't rehabilitate prisoners. Prisoners choose to rehabilitate themselves.
No different than sending your kid to school. The teacher can't force them to learn.

There are prisons that aren’t interested in rehabilitation. Doesn’t matter if you want to rehabilitate yourself. It’s prison not college.

The 15 year old that was sent to Rikers Island for 2 years and spent 700 days in solitary confinement while awaiting trial over a bogus charge of a stolen backpack. He didn’t have a chance.

all prisons aren’t created equal.

I agree that when it’s available it’s up to the individual but acting like every prison has this in place is ridiculous.

[whatever]

There are prisons that aren’t interested in rehabilitation. Doesn’t matter if you want to rehabilitate yourself. It’s prison not college.

The 15 year old that was sent to Rikers Island for 2 years and spent 700 days in solitary confinement while awaiting trial over a bogus charge of a stolen backpack. He didn’t have a chance.

all prisons aren’t created equal.

I agree that when it’s available it’s up to the individual but acting like every prison has this in place is ridiculous.

I'm not sure I said every prison is the same. Once again, I'm not sure why you say stuff like that. I'm may be wrong but I'm fairly certain that most at least have libraries.
I can guarantee you that all prisons in michigan have plenty of resources.
More than they deserve compared to people on the outside that deserve it.

I just looked up rykers and they offer a ton of programs...so much for that.

[feltdizz]

I'm not sure I said every prison is the same. Once again, I'm not sure why you say stuff like that. I'm may be wrong but I'm fairly certain that most at least have libraries.
I can guarantee you that all prisons in michigan have plenty of resources.
More than they deserve compared to people on the outside that deserve it.

I just looked up rykers and they offer a ton of programs...so much for that.

the first post you quoted me on said “the problem is a lot of prisons are private. SOME of them aren’t interested in rehabilitating prisoners”

and then you started talking about how it was up to the prisoners to rehab themselves.

I never said all. Maybe you should do a better job reading what is posted?

and I never said Rykers didn’t have resources. I pointed out how even with resources available it doesn’t matter when you spend 703 days in solitary confinement in 2 years... which was illegal.

speaking of Michigan. Flint has access to water.. but it’s filthy. Just because a prison has a library doesn’t mean they provide the tools necessary for accessing them.

[whatever]

the first post you quoted me on said “the problem is a lot of prisons are private. SOME of them aren’t interested in rehabilitating prisoners”

and then you started talking about how it was up to the prisoners to rehab themselves.

I never said all. Maybe you should do a better job reading what is posted?

and I never said Rykers didn’t have resources. I pointed out how even with resources available it doesn’t matter when you spend 703 days in solitary confinement in 2 years... which was illegal.

speaking of Michigan. Flint has access to water.. but it’s filthy. Just because a prison has a library doesn’t mean they provide the tools necessary for accessing them.

Lol....nice spin job. Only hear what you want and lie about what you said.
So now you are telling me the inmates can't use the library.
How do you know that?
Hey, how about this one. My tax dollars go to those prisons and prisoners so they dont deserve anything but disrespect and hate. Same as the people receiving wellfare.
That's exactly what you said about the cops....