Reality: Salary Cap and making decisions

**Steel Maniac** · 01-03-2020, 05:11 PM

I think we need for the cap to up significantly (to it's highest guesstimation) for us to have a realistic chance to do what we want to do.

**steeler_george** · 01-03-2020, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by SteelerMaine83

There’s been a lot of talk here on who we can and can’t keep, who we need to cut, what our salary cap situation is, etc. This is an attempt to give a general picture of our situation with Free Agents (Unrestricted and Restricted), salary cap, and realities of signing or re-signing players. This first post will be facts (although I do round numbers a little—I’ll leave sharpening the pencil to Omar, I get my info from Over the Cap and Spotrac), and my posts thereafter will be my opinions. Maybe this will get us on the same “reality” page when we say “franchise Bud” and sign a bunch of other people too (I can try, right?!). Also remember when you cut a “contributing” player you need to find a player in the draft or as a FA to replace them, and our draft picks are limited this year. Here we go (apologies for the length of the post):

Unrestricted FA: Finney, Burns, Shazier, Dupree, Davis, Hargrave, Vannett, Canaday, Matakevich

Restricted FA: Hilton, Feiler, Dangerfield, Banner

We also have a “Team Option” on Vance McDonald for ~$7.1M; cutting him saves ~$5.5M

The Exclusive Rights FAs (Whyte, Cain, etc.) don’t matter (they matter, but not in this example context) as we sign them to compete at low cost.

Potential Cuts to clear cap space: Barron $5M+; Chickillo $5M; Foster $4M; McCullers $1.5M, Nix $1M; Holton $0.735M; Switzer $0.735M; Berry $1.8M

Unlikely Cuts: Roethlisberger $8.5M; Pouncey $5M

Keepers (those that have been tossed around as potential cuts): Tuitt (lose cap space if we cut him); Vince Williams (very little savings); Haden save $7M; Heyward $9.5M; Villanueva $5M

Potential restructures/extensions: Villanueva, Heyward, DeCastro

With the current projection of ~$10M increase in the cap, the Steelers will have about $5M cap space. From that we will sign a (smaller) rookie class for about $5M. Voila, no cap space.

So, make the likely cuts-Barron, Chickillo, Foster= $14M Restructure Villanueva & Heyward= $5M

Cut Nix, McCullers, Holton & Switzer=$4M Total of all these moves: $23M

Signing Players—who do you want to keep? For RFA, the 2020 tenders are $4.7M for a 1st rounder, $3.3M for a 2nd rounder, and $2.1M for an original round (from draft). Since neither Feiler and Hilton were drafted, there is no compensation if the sign elsewhere unless you give them a 1st or 2nd tender; Banner would get a 4th rounder (Dangerfield is left off as MEH). Keeping Feiler and Hilton at 2nd round tenders and Banner at 4th will cost your $3.3.M + $3.3M + $2.1M= $8.7M of that $23M—down to $14.3M

Franchise Tag for LBs in 2020= $16.2M (already don’t have enough to Franchise Bud)

Veteran Minimum if we keep Shazier in 2020= $0.82M

What other FAs do we keep? Hargrave (too expensive); Vannett, Canaday, Finney? All these guys eat more of that cap, and we always like to keep a few million $ cap space available for in-season acqusitions when guys get hurt.

As I said, I rounded a few numbers here to illustrate where we are and how difficult it will be to keep guys we want and stay within the cap, and preserve future cap space for the Watt’s and Fitzpatrick’s of the world. These were only examples I threw out—I will give my opinion/wants in future posts once I see some reaction from others.

Thanks for making me depressed just in time for the weekend! lol

Looks like we might be forced into making a drastic cut or trade...Pouncey? Heyward? Haden? AV? give up on Bud and Hargrave?

**pfelix73** · 01-03-2020, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by SteelerMaine83

There’s been a lot of talk here on who we can and can’t keep, who we need to cut, what our salary cap situation is, etc. This is an attempt to give a general picture of our situation with Free Agents (Unrestricted and Restricted), salary cap, and realities of signing or re-signing players. This first post will be facts (although I do round numbers a little—I’ll leave sharpening the pencil to Omar, I get my info from Over the Cap and Spotrac), and my posts thereafter will be my opinions. Maybe this will get us on the same “reality” page when we say “franchise Bud” and sign a bunch of other people too (I can try, right?!). Also remember when you cut a “contributing” player you need to find a player in the draft or as a FA to replace them, and our draft picks are limited this year. Here we go (apologies for the length of the post):

Unrestricted FA: Finney, Burns, Shazier, Dupree, Davis, Hargrave, Vannett, Canaday, Matakevich

Restricted FA: Hilton, Feiler, Dangerfield, Banner

We also have a “Team Option” on Vance McDonald for ~$7.1M; cutting him saves ~$5.5M

The Exclusive Rights FAs (Whyte, Cain, etc.) don’t matter (they matter, but not in this example context) as we sign them to compete at low cost.

Potential Cuts to clear cap space: Barron $5M+; Chickillo $5M; Foster $4M; McCullers $1.5M, Nix $1M; Holton $0.735M; Switzer $0.735M; Berry $1.8M

Unlikely Cuts: Roethlisberger $8.5M; Pouncey $5M

Keepers (those that have been tossed around as potential cuts): Tuitt (lose cap space if we cut him); Vince Williams (very little savings); Haden save $7M; Heyward $9.5M; Villanueva $5M

Potential restructures/extensions: Villanueva, Heyward, DeCastro

With the current projection of ~$10M increase in the cap, the Steelers will have about $5M cap space. From that we will sign a (smaller) rookie class for about $5M. Voila, no cap space.

So, make the likely cuts-Barron, Chickillo, Foster= $14M Restructure Villanueva & Heyward= $5M

Cut Nix, McCullers, Holton & Switzer=$4M Total of all these moves: $23M

Signing Players—who do you want to keep? For RFA, the 2020 tenders are $4.7M for a 1st rounder, $3.3M for a 2nd rounder, and $2.1M for an original round (from draft). Since neither Feiler and Hilton were drafted, there is no compensation if the sign elsewhere unless you give them a 1st or 2nd tender; Banner would get a 4th rounder (Dangerfield is left off as MEH). Keeping Feiler and Hilton at 2nd round tenders and Banner at 4th will cost your $3.3.M + $3.3M + $2.1M= $8.7M of that $23M—down to $14.3M

Franchise Tag for LBs in 2020= $16.2M (already don’t have enough to Franchise Bud)

Veteran Minimum if we keep Shazier in 2020= $0.82M

What other FAs do we keep? Hargrave (too expensive); Vannett, Canaday, Finney? All these guys eat more of that cap, and we always like to keep a few million $ cap space available for in-season acqusitions when guys get hurt.

As I said, I rounded a few numbers here to illustrate where we are and how difficult it will be to keep guys we want and stay within the cap, and preserve future cap space for the Watt’s and Fitzpatrick’s of the world. These were only examples I threw out—I will give my opinion/wants in future posts once I see some reaction from others.

Question.

Where is the savings from AB's contract? Can you explain whats going on with all of that? I thought 20 million came off the books this year.

**Northern_Blitz** · 01-03-2020, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by pfelix73

Question.

Where is the savings from AB's contract? Can you explain whats going on with all of that? I thought 20 million came off the books this year.

I think AB's contract is off the books for next year.

But, we also lose the accrued space from Bell's holdout that we had this year.

There is no extra benefit for us next year from AB or from Bell.

**Northern_Blitz** · 01-03-2020, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by SteelerMaine83

There’s been a lot of talk here on who we can and can’t keep, who we need to cut, what our salary cap situation is, etc. This is an attempt to give a general picture of our situation with Free Agents (Unrestricted and Restricted), salary cap, and realities of signing or re-signing players. This first post will be facts (although I do round numbers a little—I’ll leave sharpening the pencil to Omar, I get my info from Over the Cap and Spotrac), and my posts thereafter will be my opinions. Maybe this will get us on the same “reality” page when we say “franchise Bud” and sign a bunch of other people too (I can try, right?!). Also remember when you cut a “contributing” player you need to find a player in the draft or as a FA to replace them, and our draft picks are limited this year. Here we go (apologies for the length of the post):

Unrestricted FA: Finney, Burns, Shazier, Dupree, Davis, Hargrave, Vannett, Canaday, Matakevich

Restricted FA: Hilton, Feiler, Dangerfield, Banner

We also have a “Team Option” on Vance McDonald for ~$7.1M; cutting him saves ~$5.5M

The Exclusive Rights FAs (Whyte, Cain, etc.) don’t matter (they matter, but not in this example context) as we sign them to compete at low cost.

Potential Cuts to clear cap space: Barron $5M+; Chickillo $5M; Foster $4M; McCullers $1.5M, Nix $1M; Holton $0.735M; Switzer $0.735M; Berry $1.8M

Unlikely Cuts: Roethlisberger $8.5M; Pouncey $5M

Keepers (those that have been tossed around as potential cuts): Tuitt (lose cap space if we cut him); Vince Williams (very little savings); Haden save $7M; Heyward $9.5M; Villanueva $5M

Potential restructures/extensions: Villanueva, Heyward, DeCastro

With the current projection of ~$10M increase in the cap, the Steelers will have about $5M cap space. From that we will sign a (smaller) rookie class for about $5M. Voila, no cap space.

So, make the likely cuts-Barron, Chickillo, Foster= $14M Restructure Villanueva & Heyward= $5M

Cut Nix, McCullers, Holton & Switzer=$4M Total of all these moves: $23M

Signing Players—who do you want to keep? For RFA, the 2020 tenders are $4.7M for a 1st rounder, $3.3M for a 2nd rounder, and $2.1M for an original round (from draft). Since neither Feiler and Hilton were drafted, there is no compensation if the sign elsewhere unless you give them a 1st or 2nd tender; Banner would get a 4th rounder (Dangerfield is left off as MEH). Keeping Feiler and Hilton at 2nd round tenders and Banner at 4th will cost your $3.3.M + $3.3M + $2.1M= $8.7M of that $23M—down to $14.3M

Franchise Tag for LBs in 2020= $16.2M (already don’t have enough to Franchise Bud)

Veteran Minimum if we keep Shazier in 2020= $0.82M

What other FAs do we keep? Hargrave (too expensive); Vannett, Canaday, Finney? All these guys eat more of that cap, and we always like to keep a few million $ cap space available for in-season acqusitions when guys get hurt.

As I said, I rounded a few numbers here to illustrate where we are and how difficult it will be to keep guys we want and stay within the cap, and preserve future cap space for the Watt’s and Fitzpatrick’s of the world. These were only examples I threw out—I will give my opinion/wants in future posts once I see some reaction from others.

Great post.

I agree with lots of the cut list you have. But, I think I would probably get rid of McDonald and keep McCullers and Holton (good on ST, but sucks as a WR).

I think that puts us at $26M and change with the restructures.

Maybe we keep Vance, but I don't think he's worth the contract. I would rather have Bud and let Ben make whoever we have a TE better than they are with good QB play (that's what franchise guys are supposed to do, right?)

I agree with your tenders. That puts us at close to $18M.

Maybe we do end up cutting McC and Holton to save the extra $2.25. Let's say that puts us at $20M.

This would let us franchise Bud, but we probably couldn't do anything else (maybe a one or two scrap heap guys for $1M each?).

I agree that keeping Bud will be really tough. And I don't think we can keep him long term because we have other contract coming up. Unless he takes a sweetheart deal, and I don't think anyone would do that when they have the option for a massive payday.

**SteelerMaine83** · 01-03-2020, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Steel Maniac

I think we need for the cap to up significantly (to it's highest guesstimation) for us to have a realistic chance to do what we want to do.

At best the cap will only go up another $2m from what I assumed here—10 m to 12m. That still gives us a little more room, but I doubt that happens.

**SteelerMaine83** · 01-03-2020, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Northern_Blitz

I think AB's contract is off the books for next year.

But, we also lose the accrued space from Bell's holdout that we had this year.

There is no extra benefit for us next year from AB or from Bell.

100% true. If we still had AB and Bell, Mason would be our starter and half the D would be gone to accommodate their cap hit, haha. No effect on our 2020 cap, other than not counting against it.

**SteelerMaine83** · 01-03-2020, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Northern_Blitz

Great post.

I agree with lots of the cut list you have. But, I think I would probably get rid of McDonald and keep McCullers and Holton (good on ST, but sucks as a WR).

I think that puts us at $26M and change with the restructures.

Maybe we keep Vance, but I don't think he's worth the contract. I would rather have Bud and let Ben make whoever we have a TE better than they are with good QB play (that's what franchise guys are supposed to do, right?)

I agree with your tenders. That puts us at close to $18M.

Maybe we do end up cutting McC and Holton to save the extra $2.25. Let's say that puts us at $20M.

This would let us franchise Bud, but we probably couldn't do anything else (maybe a one or two scrap heap guys for $1M each?).

I agree that keeping Bud will be really tough. And I don't think we can keep him long term because we have other contract coming up. Unless he takes a sweetheart deal, and I don't think anyone would do that when they have the option for a massive payday.

Thanks. Actually, I just provided examples as a way to see how one choice may preclude another, given relative costs for different moves. These are not necessarily what I think will happen or what I would do.

However, I’d like to keep Bud but a $16m + Franchise Tag is too high (to me), it kills our ability to do other things with those guys we’d like to keep.

As I said in a different post, to keep Dupree we need a long term contract that gives him a big signing bonus (which gets prorated over the length is f the contract) so that he gets good money upfront but keeps our cap hit low for two years (when Ben’s contract gets done). I’d propose an 8 yr, $128m contract ($16m per year) with a $28m signing bonus (a hit of 3.5m per year, prorated). You could then give him salaries of 2m and 3m in the first two years—Bud gets 33m for the first two years but our cap hits are only 5.5k and 6.5 m for each year. Gives me a more room to sign others we want to keep this year, and recognizes the dip in QB spending in two years. We can do the same with Watt next year, and Minkah the year after. Bud will have a contract that pays him 16m + for the first five years and let’s us cut him years 6, 7 or 8 with a savings in cap space. Essentially a five year contract that gives us options to keep him in the latter years if we have the money and if the level of play is still acceptable.

**whatever** · 01-03-2020, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by SteelerMaine83

Thanks. Actually, I just provided examples as a way to see how one choice may preclude another, given relative costs for different moves. These are not necessarily what I think will happen or what I would do.

However, I’d like to keep Bud but a $16m + Franchise Tag is too high (to me), it kills our ability to do other things with those guys we’d like to keep.

As I said in a different post, to keep Dupree we need a long term contract that gives him a big signing bonus (which gets prorated over the length is f the contract) so that he gets good money upfront but keeps our cap hit low for two years (when Ben’s contract gets done). I’d propose an 8 yr, $128m contract ($16m per year) with a $28m signing bonus (a hit of 3.5m per year, prorated). You could then give him salaries of 2m and 3m in the first two years—Bud gets 33m for the first two years but our cap hits are only 5.5k and 6.5 m for each year. Gives me a more room to sign others we want to keep this year, and recognizes the dip in QB spending in two years. We can do the same with Watt next year, and Minkah the year after. Bud will have a contract that pays him 16m + for the first five years and let’s us cut him years 6, 7 or 8 with a savings in cap space. Essentially a five year contract that gives us options to keep him in the latter years if we have the money and if the level of play is still acceptable.

Good post.
Maybe that's the only way we keep Bud.
You'd have to work fast on that situation. Tell Bud here's the deal. Take the contract or leave. No time to play games and let others leave waiting to figure out Bud.
The problem is doing this for Bud, Watt and Fitz really puts us in a bad postion a number of years down the road, especially if we stumbled upon a franchise qb that we need to pay.
We aren't know for kicking the can or having tons of dead money.

**SteelerMaine83** · 01-03-2020, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by steeler_george

Thanks for making me depressed just in time for the weekend! lol

Looks like we might be forced into making a drastic cut or trade...Pouncey? Heyward? Haden? AV? give up on Bud and Hargrave?

Sorry George. Not trying to depress anyone. I actually think there is hope, it just depends on what you value most is really the point of laying out the facts.

Like keeping Bud and Hargrave. Going to take a lot, going to require cutting some players we’d like to keep. Personally, I’d like to keep both players but Bud is more crucial in my mind. Hargrave just plays less snaps—he’s out more than 50%of the passing downs, so I’d get a pure run-stuffer (Benito Jones maybe) later in the draft to give me 15-20 run stuffing snaps a game and use Alualu and a developing Buggs the other snaps that Hargrave would typically have. Not ideal, but let’s us keep guys like Feiler, Hilton, Banner, maybe Vannett. Depends on what you value most—no right, no wrong. I can make arguments for/against any move, haha.

**SteelerMaine83** · 01-03-2020, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by whatever

Good post.
Maybe that's the only way we keep Bud.
You'd have to work fast on that situation. Tell Bud here's the deal. Take the contract or leave. No time to play games and let others leave waiting to figure out Bud.
The problem is doing this for Bud, Watt and Fitz really puts us in a bad postion a number of years down the road, especially if we stumbled upon a franchise qb that we need to pay.
We aren't know for kicking the can or having tons of dead money.

If you give good signing bonuses upfront, make the last years “cuttable”, as well like the Bud example, you can stumble on that 1st round franchise QB , pay them rather inexpensively for 4 years, then ramp their contract up as the others wind down. Bud would be in year 6 of his contract by the time we get the QB after Ben retires.

I do agree though, Bud needs to get this deal and sign it before FA even comes. That’s why I propose such an aggressive deal.

**pittpete** · 01-03-2020, 11:39 PM

With Tuitt coming back theres no need to overpay for Hargrave
Maybe we get a long term deal with Bud so the tag is not a definite
Foster $4,000,000
Barron 5,250,000
Chick $5,000,000
Berry $1,800,000
part time TE McDonald $5,672,500
Thats almost 22 million right there

**whatever** · 01-04-2020, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by SteelerMaine83

If you give good signing bonuses upfront, make the last years “cuttable”, as well like the Bud example, you can stumble on that 1st round franchise QB , pay them rather inexpensively for 4 years, then ramp their contract up as the others wind down. Bud would be in year 6 of his contract by the time we get the QB after Ben retires.

I do agree though, Bud needs to get this deal and sign it before FA even comes. That’s why I propose such an aggressive deal.

I can see doing that for a player or 2, but 4,5 or 6 is alot if dead cap and really puts you at risk of AB types that will force their way out.
That seems to be the mentality of the new guys.

**steeler_george** · 01-04-2020, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by pittpete

With Tuitt coming back theres no need to overpay for Hargrave
Maybe we get a long term deal with Bud so the tag is not a definite
Foster $4,000,000
Barron 5,250,000
Chick $5,000,000
Berry $1,800,000
part time TE McDonald $5,672,500
Thats almost 22 million right there

I think those is cap cuts are enough to sign Bud and maybe 2 other of our priority FAs ( Feiler and Hilton), add a few contract extensions ( ex. Heyward, Nelson) we should be able to get 1 or 2 "Steeler" FA plug players till the draft (a starting TE, NT, and G/C depth)

Add in the carried over 2M from 2019 and raise in cap, that should be enough to sign our 2020 draft class and a few depth/role players that we have to resign.

Reality: Salary Cap and making decisions

Reality: Salary Cap and making decisions

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