Just sayin...

[Steel Maniac]

How does someone not good at anything have so many wins?

If Sean Payton is so much better than Tomlin where are his multiple rings?

How did NO go 7-9 for 3 straight seasons with Sean Payton if he is so much better?

That’s the problem with these arguments. You praise other coaches like Payton yet ignore all his terrible seasons and non playoff years.

Because Sean Payton had to build a culture as well as a team. He BUILT something!
Did Tomlin have to build a culture and a team? Or did he just walk in and take over the nucleus of a team that won a Super bowl two years prior?

Why did Sean Payton have 7-9 seasons? Because he had to retool his defense; but never in the area of his expertise. But as a good head coach, he did get his defense rebuilt.

Did Tomlin ever get this area of expertise acchomplished????? No.....for 12 years he hasn't been able to draft and have a legit secondary.

Sean Payton is the GM and coach; so yeah, he had a few down seasons but what he had to do coming in the door was waaaaaaaaaaaay more then Tomlin ever has had to do. He's a better coach.

If Sean Payton had become available, we would need to be all over it. Because he knows how to build culture, teams from the ground up. He's proven it. That's why he's better.

[Steel Maniac]

Offense is Payton's specialty.... As a HC, his offense has not only been solid but a bit evolutionary as situations demanded. He has evaluated talent well.

Secondary is Tomlin's specialty....As a HC, the secondary has been pathetic and incompetent. Confused. He is unable to evaluate, draft and develop talent.

They got hired as HC because of their specialty. One looks legit. The other looks like a fraud.

Boom..........

[Oh wow]

Offense is Payton's specialty.... As a HC, his offense has not only been solid but a bit evolutionary as situations demanded. He has evaluated talent well.

Secondary is Tomlin's specialty....As a HC, the secondary has been pathetic and incompetent. Confused. He is unable to evaluate, draft and develop talent.

They got hired as HC because of their specialty. One looks legit. The other looks like a fraud.

Has it really been evolutionary? Brees is a beast but have we ever been like “damn, the Saints run some crazy plays/sets?”

It’s basically breeze throwing crazy back shoulder passes in a dome.

[Oh wow]

Because Sean Payton had to build a culture as well as a team. He BUILT something!
Did Tomlin have to build a culture and a team? Or did he just walk in and take over the nucleus of a team that won a Super bowl two years prior?

Why did Sean Payton have 7-9 seasons? Because he had to retool his defense; but never in the area of his expertise. But as a good head coach, he did get his defense rebuilt.

Did Tomlin ever get this area of expertise acchomplished????? No.....for 12 years he hasn't been able to draft and have a legit secondary.

Sean Payton is the GM and coach; so yeah, he had a few down seasons but what he had to do coming in the door was waaaaaaaaaaaay more then Tomlin ever has had to do. He's a better coach.

If Sean Payton had become available, we would need to be all over it. Because he knows how to build culture, teams from the ground up. He's proven it. That's why he's better.

I get it, regardless of what Tomlin achieves the credit is always going to be given to anyone but him because of our franchises history.

However, you can crown the next guy and shrug at his down years while screaming about Tomlins down years and how it’s all his fault.

On one hand Tomlin wins because our FO has everything in place and is awesome.. but when we lose... it’s not because of our FO or awesome franchise, just Tomlin.

[Mr.wizard]

Payton was also working with a bunch cap space and a high draft pick, he didn't have to build through the draft. Tomlin hasn't had the luxury of going out and spending on big free agents. Because of all the winning seasons we don't get great draft positions, it's tough to find lock down secondary players late in the draft, hell its hard to find them period.

[Mr.wizard]

Don,t get me wrong Sean Payton is great coach.

[Steel Maniac]

Payton was also working with a bunch cap space and a high draft pick, he didn't have to build through the draft. Tomlin hasn't had the luxury of going out and spending on big free agents. Because of all the winning seasons we don't get great draft positions, it's tough to find lock down secondary players late in the draft, hell its hard to find them period.

I can’t buy that Colbert hasn’t been able to not find someone for 12 years. It’s more like we don’t have a coach who really knows how to develop them.

[Captain Lemming]

I can’t buy that Colbert hasn’t been able to not find someone for 12 years. It’s more like we don’t have a coach who really knows how to develop them.

12 years? I dont think so.

Noll, Cowher, Tomlin....here is the complete list of first round Steeler corners.


Noll:
1973 JT Thomas
1975 Dave Brown
1978 Ron Johnson
1987 Rod Woodson (8th pick after a 6-10 season)

Cowher:
1993 Deon Figures
1997 Chad Scott

Tomlin:
2016 Artie Burns

I am 55 years old. Born in 64. Save for a higher pick than Tomlin has EVER HAD (Woodson 8th), this team has NEVER EVER drafted a great corner in the first in the SB era.

Best of the lot was JT Thomas who was "pretty good".

ONE of that list of mostly busts was drafted by Colbert/Tomlin. Artie Burns.

Between Noll and Cowher, the ONLY outstanding 1st round corner was the FIRST CORNER drafted in the 87 draft....
1. Rod Woodson.

When Burns was drafted you had
1. Jalen Ramsey
2. Eli Apple
3. Vernon Hargreaves
4. Willian Jackson III
5. Finally....Artie Burns


Tomlin cant "evaluate" cornerbacks? Give "me" a shot at the first corner in the draft like Noll had.....Ramsey would be a Steeler.

Develop corners?
Tomlins league leading pass defenses (never done by Cowher) featured corners like Ike, Gay, and K Lewis.
Who of those gus was DEVELOPED by Cowher?

Fact is.....drafting DBs past the first half of the first is a crapshoot. Way more misses than hits.....by EVERYBODY.

[hawaiiansteel]

12 years? I dont think so.

Noll, Cowher, Tomlin....here is the complete list of first round Steeler corners.


Noll:
1973 JT Thomas
1975 Dave Brown
1978 Ron Johnson
1987 Rod Woodson (8th pick after a 6-10 season)

Cowher:
1993 Deon Figures
1997 Chad Scott

Tomlin:
2016 Artie Burns

I am 55 years old. Born in 64. Save for a higher pick than Tomlin has EVER HAD (Woodson 8th), this team has NEVER EVER drafted a great corner in the first in the SB era.

Best of the lot was JT Thomas who was "pretty good".

ONE of that list of mostly busts was drafted by Colbert/Tomlin. Artie Burns.

Between Noll and Cowher, the ONLY outstanding 1st round corner was the FIRST CORNER drafted in the 87 draft....
1. Rod Woodson.

When Burns was drafted you had
1. Jalen Ramsey
2. Eli Apple
3. Vernon Hargreaves
4. Willian Jackson III
5. Finally....Artie Burns


Tomlin cant "evaluate" cornerbacks? Give "me" a shot at the first corner in the draft like Noll had.....Ramsey would be a Steeler.

Develop corners?
Tomlins league leading pass defenses (never done by Cowher) featured corners like Ike, Gay, and K Lewis.
Who of those gus was DEVELOPED by Cowher?

Fact is.....drafting DBs past the first half of the first is a crapshoot. Way more misses than hits.....by EVERYBODY.

great points, spot on Cap!

[Northern_Blitz]

12 years? I dont think so.

Noll, Cowher, Tomlin....here is the complete list of first round Steeler corners.


Noll:
1973 JT Thomas
1975 Dave Brown
1978 Ron Johnson
1987 Rod Woodson (8th pick after a 6-10 season)

Cowher:
1993 Deon Figures
1997 Chad Scott

Tomlin:
2016 Artie Burns

I am 55 years old. Born in 64. Save for a higher pick than Tomlin has EVER HAD (Woodson 8th), this team has NEVER EVER drafted a great corner in the first in the SB era.

Best of the lot was JT Thomas who was "pretty good".

ONE of that list of mostly busts was drafted by Colbert/Tomlin. Artie Burns.

Between Noll and Cowher, the ONLY outstanding 1st round corner was the FIRST CORNER drafted in the 87 draft....
1. Rod Woodson.

When Burns was drafted you had
1. Jalen Ramsey
2. Eli Apple
3. Vernon Hargreaves
4. Willian Jackson III
5. Finally....Artie Burns


Tomlin cant "evaluate" cornerbacks? Give "me" a shot at the first corner in the draft like Noll had.....Ramsey would be a Steeler.

Develop corners?
Tomlins league leading pass defenses (never done by Cowher) featured corners like Ike, Gay, and K Lewis.
Who of those gus was DEVELOPED by Cowher?

Fact is.....drafting DBs past the first half of the first is a crapshoot. Way more misses than hits.....by EVERYBODY.

Nice post

Arguments are way better with facts.

[Mr.wizard]

I can’t buy that Colbert hasn’t been able to not find someone for 12 years. It’s more like we don’t have a coach who really knows how to develop them.

I suggest you go look at the defensive rankings under Tomlin they are actually pretty good. If your contention is still we have only had bad secondary players then its even a better coaching job by Tomlin. The draft is a crap shoot especially when you are a winning team which is why uou saw us go out and pick up Hayden, Nelson, Fitzpatrick through free agency. Now we also have some nice secondaty players on the roster, Edmunds, Hilton, Sutton. Also I think even though Burns has been rough I think he gets some redemption this weekend.

[Northern_Blitz]

I suggest you go look at the defensive rankings under Tomlin they are actually pretty good. If your contention is still we have only had bad secondary players then its even a better coaching job by Tomlin. The draft is a crap shoot especially when you are a winning team which is why uou saw us go out and pick up Hayden, Nelson, Fitzpatrick through free agency. Now we also have some nice secondaty players on the roster, Edmunds, Hilton, Sutton. Also I think even though Burns has been rough I think he gets some redemption this weekend.

Maniac,

In case you missed the ranking, they're on pg 9 of this thread.

http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/49599-Just-sayin/page9

[flippy]

Maniac,

In case you missed the ranking, they're on pg 9 of this thread.

http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums...st-sayin/page9

Something happened around 2013 and it's been downhill since for the D. I know Lebeau left after 2014 after 2 subpar seasons on D. But now Mike Tomlin and Keith Butler have had 4 straight bad seasons by historic standards for this team even during the Tomlin era.

IMHO, I think DL deserved more leeway than MT. DL had a lot more success for a longer time than MT. They had some great success together. I think we should have stuck with DL and tried to iron out the issues with him instead of without him.

On the same token, seeing that we didn't get better post DL, I'm not sure canning MT is the current answer either.

Either way, WTF happened in 2013? And why did it take about 5 years to come back from there? I think we're on the verge of becoming a better D this season.

[Steel Maniac]

Maniac,

In case you missed the ranking, they're on pg 9 of this thread.

http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums...st-sayin/page9

Again...we’ve had this discussion. In the 2017 season , when we were 13-3. On paper, we had a wonderful defensive ranking. Because we only faced two legit qbs that year in Brady and Stafford. We had a cup cake schedule so our end of the year stats were wonderful.

This is why “
Stats” do t always tell the whole story. Everybody in here KNOWS our secondary hasn’t been up to snuff for years. That’s what our eyeballs tell us. You can roll out whatever stats you need to help you sleep better at night but you know what our secondary has looked like since TP has left.

Good attempt thou. Appreciate the effort by you.

[Steel Maniac]

I suggest you go look at the defensive rankings under Tomlin they are actually pretty good. If your contention is still we have only had bad secondary players then its even a better coaching job by Tomlin. The draft is a crap shoot especially when you are a winning team which is why uou saw us go out and pick up Hayden, Nelson, Fitzpatrick through free agency. Now we also have some nice secondaty players on the roster, Edmunds, Hilton, Sutton. Also I think even though Burns has been rough I think he gets some redemption this weekend.

Stats dont always tell the whole story. Secondary so good that Blake Bortles scores 17 points in the 4 qtr alone. 17 points....Blake Bortles. See? Stats don’t tell the whole story.

Then go back to the year that manning won with Denver; how did that vaunted secondary perform that year in the playoffs? You see? Seasonal stats dont tell the whole story.