A theory about why we win or lose

[feltdizz]

1st. I never realized a 20 'yard pass play is considered deep.
2nd. The only one of those QBs listed who would dink and dunk all game is Brady. The other 2 won't and never have done it a whole game. They throw down the field. (Peyton's prime)

3rd point. Does Brady dink and dunk to likes of nix and spaeth? And will Johnson??? No
Their coaches put them in a position to succeed. They aren't lining up in jumbo packages and telling tom to hit the likes of offensive stalwarts we have in our packages.
As much as it was a bad reason to throw a late int in that bengals game. Will Johnson was equally at fault for not coming back to the ball. Should have been a reception had he done so. At the least an inc pass.
So I ask you, why is someone who was so bad at that aspect out in a pass pattern that late in the game??
Do you think the defense really cares if the steelers come out and pass the ball in those sets? I doubt it, They are easily defensed.

4th. You (not specifically you) complain about forcing the ball to one of the best Wrs in the game when covered on the int. then go complain why he goes to a struggling receiver on 3rd and 15 and on 4th down.
What if AB was covered like everyone says he was on the int? Just how many other options are left?
Can't pass to AB cause that will be 'forcing the ball'. Can't pass to wr2 because he's struggling. Can't pass to the TE unless the defense blows a coverage because he's not quick/fast enough to beat man to man coverage.
Should he pass it to himself?

Do you know how many f***ing times Rodgers, Peyton, and tom tom throw the ball to a player that has a defender draped all over him.
Be it back shoulder shoulder or Down the seam just clearing the defending players helmet because he isn't turned around. Most of the times their receivers make the play, as do the Steeler receivers.

enough of this bs hes "forced the ball". That INT pass intended for AB is a pass play that happens all the time with those other QBs.
If AB comes up with that ball, no one is saying anything


Lastly, I've seen Brady fail like that just to the jets a handful of times over the years. Add in the Ravens, and we're wayyy past the 1 or 2 times 'he eva did it" (Boston accent)

1. I agree

3. Yes, Brady dinks and dunks to whoever is OPEN. The Pats have a pretty stinky WR corps outside of the white midgets and Gronk. He has thrown to players who are on a Nix and Spaeth level this year and in other years as well. Both INT's to FB's this year are passes Ben should have never thrown. There was little reward and we were ahead in both games if I'm not mistaken. Those are forced passes.

and lastly, I dont th7nk I hafe ever seen Brady fall to a 4 win Jets team when they needed a W to make the playoffs.

[Sword]

Game plan ...Game plan... that is why!!! and assuming it's going to be easier to play a sub-par team.


You cannot waste a bunch of time running down the field then, get no points and then expect this below average backfield to play lights out.
on 4th down they should have kicked the field goal or for god sake tricked the **** out of birds by faking the run on first and would have been an easy pass..
hell Ben could have taken it to the corner.


Why are they not doing the game plan like last year when Ben Threw 6TD against the Ravens? pass ..pass pass... then run...


With this team you have to pass to establish the run!!! period!!!

[RuthlessBurgher]

Brady dinks and dunks to whoever is OPEN. The Pats have a pretty stinky WR corps outside of the white midgets and Gronk. He has thrown to players who are on a Nix and Spaeth level this year and in other years as well.

Yeah, Tom Brady has thrown 8 career TD passes to DE/LB Mike Vrabel.

[papillon]

1st. I never realized a 20 'yard pass play is considered deep.
2nd. The only one of those QBs listed who would dink and dunk all game is Brady. The other 2 won't and never have done it a whole game. They throw down the field. (Peyton's prime)

3rd point. Does Brady dink and dunk to likes of nix and spaeth? And will Johnson??? No
Their coaches put them in a position to succeed. They aren't lining up in jumbo packages and telling tom to hit the likes of offensive stalwarts we have in our packages.
As much as it was a bad reason to throw a late int in that bengals game. Will Johnson was equally at fault for not coming back to the ball. Should have been a reception had he done so. At the least an inc pass.
So I ask you, why is someone who was so bad at that aspect out in a pass pattern that late in the game??
Do you think the defense really cares if the steelers come out and pass the ball in those sets? I doubt it, They are easily defensed.

4th. You (not specifically you) complain about forcing the ball to one of the best Wrs in the game when covered on the int. then go complain why he goes to a struggling receiver on 3rd and 15 and on 4th down.
What if AB was covered like everyone says he was on the int? Just how many other options are left?
Can't pass to AB cause that will be 'forcing the ball'. Can't pass to wr2 because he's struggling. Can't pass to the TE unless the defense blows a coverage because he's not quick/fast enough to beat man to man coverage.
Should he pass it to himself?

Do you know how many f***ing times Rodgers, Peyton, and tom tom throw the ball to a player that has a defender draped all over him.
Be it back shoulder shoulder or Down the seam just clearing the defending players helmet because he isn't turned around. Most of the times their receivers make the play, as do the Steeler receivers.

enough of this bs hes "forced the ball". That INT pass intended for AB is a pass play that happens all the time with those other QBs.
If AB comes up with that ball, no one is saying anything


Lastly, I've seen Brady fail like that just to the jets a handful of times over the years. Add in the Ravens, and we're wayyy past the 1 or 2 times 'he eva did it" (Boston accent)

If 20 yards isn't deep then why do I see statistics about the number of 20+ yard completions during games? That's a deep pass that was ill-advised particularly with DW staring him in the face with no one within 10 yards. He forced it deep when there was no need, impatient, IMO.

You have a point about the quarterbacks I have to concede that to you. I did some research and found the following. Ben statistically is as good as all of them.

Player/YPA/INT
Brady/7.5/150
Manning/7.7/251
Ben/7.9/145
Rodgers/8.0/64

Based on what I've watched over the years it is still my contention that Ben forces balls deep more than the others, of course, I don't watch the others every Sunday so my perspective is probably a bit slanted. IMO, I would take any of the others against a 2 deep safety look over Ben, I still think its his Achilles heel and will always believe that because patience isn't a virtue with Ben. He makes it exciting and I love that, as I've said many times, Steeler football has never been this exciting and its because of Ben, sometimes it's good exciting and sometimes it's bad exciting. The Ravens game was bad exciting.

Tom Brady has been throwing to a bunch no name receivers for years and has made them look good including fullbacks, tailbacks or any other back in the game. The one thing that he has had over every other QB for the past 6 years is Gronk. When Brady had a great receiver (Moss) the offense was considered one of the best of all time. This year is a good example of it, the analysts are talking about Brady getting back Amendola and Edelman as if these guys are going to the HOF, when in fact neither has even made a pro-bowl.

First let me just say that I wasn't complaining (I try not to complain, but to critique and generate a discussion, not a p1ssing match) about Ben throwing to struggling receivers, it was simply my opinion that those two throws were poor decisions given the game situation. My biggest complaint is taking a high risk, high reward option over low risk, medium reward option when you have 2 plays to make 15 yards to extend the game. In Ben's defense on those plays the Ravens had all the underneath receivers covered. This offense is capable of converting a 4th and 7 or 8 fairly routinely, trying a couple fly patterns to two receivers that are struggling on that day is far more risky than is necessary, IMO. Maybe that's a Haley problem,I don't know, but the Steelers, IMO, should have been trying to find a way to 15 yards and get back in front of the sticks. Actually, this would have been the time to force it into AB and hope he makes a play if he's covered, at least he's capable of making the play for you. Bryant and Wheaton haven't shown that ability yet.

Blaming Will Johnson for that late INT is ridiculous and he was running a route that wasn't any type of comeback route, so for him to change his momentum and come to Ben would be nearly impossible for a large man. That ball should have found its way into the cheap seats, while not ideal, it would have been better than throwing it behind a fullback that has 2 receptions on the year. You really going to try and defends that throw? The options he had left were to throw the effing thing OOB and go back to the huddle for the next play, don't throw it to the Broncos and give them life. I have no control over whether the coaches put players in a good position to succeed or not. All I can do is watch the execution and see the outcome.

As far as other options when everyone is covered, well, when that happens a punt is part of the game and as distasteful as it is to put the Steeler defense on the field it is better than giving up field position with an INT.

Maybe Brady did fail more than 1 or 2 times not many more though, Ben seemingly after starting his career making a living thriving in critical situations has become very average over the past few years in those times. I know I have stated on here in threads that I would rather be trailing and Ben have the ball than to be leading and the defense on the field even when the defense was very good. Ben was that good during crunch time, now I only want him to have the ball because the defense is so bad, its almost a guarantee that they will fail late in a game trying to prohibit a game tying or winning score.

I had little faith that Ben was going to be able generate a drive to win the Ravens game this past weekend. Maybe it was the play calling, maybe it was coaching, maybe it was the personnel, maybe it was poor decision making, maybe it was lack of play making, but whatever the reason I didn't believe that the drive would be successful.

Pappy

[Shawn]

Only 3 other QB's have more INT's and Ben has missed 4 games this year.

Ben over the course of his career has been money. Anyone who doesn't see this doesn't want to see it. If you want to take a snap shot of Ben's career and define his career by it...more power to you. I understand the frustration. Ben has had some ****ty games this year. He cost us the last game no doubt. But, defining a man's career by a injured filled season isn't prudent or productive.

[Shawn]

I would agree Ben has a propensity to be a cowboy and force the ball at times. Game managers don't do that. Game managers play like Alex Smith. The things that make Ben great are also the things that get him into trouble.

[Slapstick]

Don't knock Alex Smith. His team has a playoff spot assured...and, if you look at his playoff games, he plays really well in the post season...

[Shawn]

Don't knock Alex Smith. His team has a playoff spot assured...and, if you look at his playoff games, he plays really well in the post season...

Not a knock...just an observation.

[feltdizz]

Ben over the course of his career has been money. Anyone who doesn't see this doesn't want to see it. If you want to take a snap shot of Ben's career and define his career by it...more power to you. I understand the frustration. Ben has had some ****ty games this year. He cost us the last game no doubt. But, defining a man's career by a injured filled season isn't prudent or productive.

Ben WAS money... but he hasnt been money lately and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out.

You sqw game manager and got beside yourself. I said fans shouldnt have been so angry over a stupid label when he was winning playoff games and superbowls.

Ben is a HOFer and a top 10 QB butwhat the hell does that have to do with critiquing his game this year or his play under Haley since we havent seen a playoff victory in 4 or 5 years?

Fans have no problem wanting Tomlin FIRED but we cant even discuss Ben's bad games without hearing about his career.

No one is asking for a trade we are just calling it how we see it.

[feltdizz]

I would agree Ben has a propensity to be a cowboy and force the ball at times. Game managers don't do that. Game managers play like Alex Smith. The things that make Ben great are also the things that get him into trouble.

Game managers still throw INT's... they also make the playoffs and win.

You guys always saw that label as a knock on Ben but since he now has to carry the load due to a bad defense we see its much harder than fans imagined. Fans who were upset at that label claimed Ben could win a SB throwing it 40 to 50 times a game if you just gave him weapons and an OL.

Well, we gave him a tall WR, another WR who is considered the best in the game, a beast of a RB and a solid back up this year and we havent turned the corner.

IMO there was never a problem with throwing 26 to 30 times a game and letting the D do the heavy lifting. But ans wanted more... winning playoff games with a middle of the pack offense wasnt enough.

Silly labels...

[SS Laser]

Heavy lifting from the defense?

Sad part is you actually believe that.

HI CRASH! any way yes heavy lifting = INT's or 3 and outs. Giving Ben back the ball. Under Haley IMO Ben is much better when not "under the gun" With BA he was better under the gun. When this offense 2015 gets some Extra series they score 30 points. No extra series and making Ben work for it = loss.

[feltdizz]

Heavy lifting from the defense?

Sad part is you actually believe that.

yes, the defense scored a lot of points and created short fields for our offense early in Ben's career.

We also had 2 years where our O didn't score a TD for 10 straight qtrs.

Ben even said he was embarassed for the offense a few times.

It was still an explosive offense that always turned it on at the right time in the playoffs but we definitely had a ton of help from a great defense when we went deep in the playoffs.

[Shawn]

Game managers still throw INT's... they also make the playoffs and win.

You guys always saw that label as a knock on Ben but since he now has to carry the load due to a bad defense we see its much harder than fans imagined. Fans who were upset at that label claimed Ben could win a SB throwing it 40 to 50 times a game if you just gave him weapons and an OL.

Well, we gave him a tall WR, another WR who is considered the best in the game, a beast of a RB and a solid back up this year and we havent turned the corner.

IMO there was never a problem with throwing 26 to 30 times a game and letting the D do the heavy lifting. But ans wanted more... winning playoff games with a middle of the pack offense wasnt enough.

Silly labels...

As bad of a year you say Ben has had...and as bad as this defense is...we will likely end the year 10-6, after Ben was injured for 4 games, lost our Pro Bowl RB and Center...and our starting LT. That isn't carrying a team? Interesting.

[feltdizz]

As bad of a year you say Ben has had...and as bad as this defense is...we will likely end the year 10-6, after Ben was injured for 4 games, lost our Pro Bowl RB and Center...and our starting LT. That isn't carrying a team? Interesting.

If we make the playoffs itd carrying the team.

You dont get praise for missing the playoffs and going 5 years without a playoff win.

[NJ-STEELER]

1. I agree

3. Yes, Brady dinks and dunks to whoever is OPEN. The Pats have a pretty stinky WR corps outside of the white midgets and Gronk. He has thrown to players who are on a Nix and Spaeth level this year and in other years as well. Both INT's to FB's this year are passes Ben should have never thrown. There was little reward and we were ahead in both games if I'm not mistaken. Those are forced passes.

and lastly, I dont th7nk I hafe ever seen Brady fall to a 4 win Jets team when they needed a W to make the playoffs.

He has the biggest mismatch in the game today in gronk. His 2 midgets white guys look to be around the same size as AB and Wheaton. Edleman was even drafted the same round as AB.
Why is AB great and Edelman just another guy?


But you missed the point. He's throwing to those guys in multiple Wr sets. Forcing the defense to play in Nickle and dime packages.... A game plan to dictate what the defense will see all game
What we should have done with the Ravens.

Re: jets
I thought he meant the jets In general. Not just when they're bad.