We can stop waiting for a 2008 type of D

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  • sick beats
    Pro Bowler
    • Dec 2013
    • 2144

    We can stop waiting for a 2008 type of D

    We (me included) have been whining about our porous D that we have been seeing the last few seasons, THIS one included. Harrison came out and said, "It is the players, not Lebeau" who are the reason for such a soft D. Cowher came out and said this D was soft. But you know what? They are all wrong.

    This D may not be among the top in the league. But, that's not relevant. The fact is ANY D can be made to look soft, because with the rules and the refs' interpretation (obviously, in accordance with the NFL powers) we will no longer see ANY defenses that can hold today's offenses to 10 points or less on a steady basis.

    What we say yesterday is a case where, even though the D gave up 30+ points, it was still a modern-day version of playing good D. The formula of a D consistently holding opponents to 14 or less points, and the offense scoring 20, no longer wins in today's NFL. So, since it's not realistic to consistently win in such a fashion, it's time to scrap that model. It's not sustainable. The Colts came in as the #3 D in the NFL. All Ben did was torch them for 522 yards and 6 TDs. Does that mean the Colts' D is terrible? Nope. It just means they faced an offense that kept the ball all day. The Colts will have other days where the D keeps their opponents score down; but today, no such D exists that can do that every week.

    The truth is, an effort like we saw yesterday, against a franchise QB, will now be considered decent. I said early on that we have to score 35+ to win the game. We won't every week; we played the #1 O and won't every week. The point is, we need a new paradigm to judge what is and what is not a decent D. In hindsight, even though we gave up 34 points, the D was not all that bad, all things considered; they hit Luck all day long, mostly bottled up the run, and even got some turn overs. If we need our D told opponents under 20 points to win, then we can expect losing. That model simply doesn't exist any longer (unless playing the very worst teams). So don't expect it to. We are seeing record points, record come backs, etc. We will need offensive output to put up 30+ points, or we can expect to lose.
  • Captain Lemming
    Legend
    • Jun 2008
    • 16041

    #2
    Originally posted by sick beats
    We (me included) have been whining about our porous D that we have been seeing the last few seasons, THIS one included. Harrison came out and said, "It is the players, not Lebeau" who are the reason for such a soft D. Cowher came out and said this D was soft. But you know what? They are all wrong.

    This D may not be among the top in the league. But, that's not relevant. The fact is ANY D can be made to look soft, because with the rules and the refs' interpretation (obviously, in accordance with the NFL powers) we will no longer see ANY defenses that can hold today's offenses to 10 points or less on a steady basis.

    What we say yesterday is a case where, even though the D gave up 30+ points, it was still a modern-day version of playing good D. The formula of a D consistently holding opponents to 14 or less points, and the offense scoring 20, no longer wins in today's NFL. So, since it's not realistic to consistently win in such a fashion, it's time to scrap that model. It's not sustainable. The Colts came in as the #3 D in the NFL. All Ben did was torch them for 522 yards and 6 TDs. Does that mean the Colts' D is terrible? Nope. It just means they faced an offense that kept the ball all day. The Colts will have other days where the D keeps their opponents score down; but today, no such D exists that can do that every week.

    The truth is, an effort like we saw yesterday, against a franchise QB, will now be considered decent. I said early on that we have to score 35+ to win the game. We won't every week; we played the #1 O and won't every week. The point is, we need a new paradigm to judge what is and what is not a decent D. In hindsight, even though we gave up 34 points, the D was not all that bad, all things considered; they hit Luck all day long, mostly bottled up the run, and even got some turn overs. If we need our D told opponents under 20 points to win, then we can expect losing. That model simply doesn't exist any longer (unless playing the very worst teams). So don't expect it to. We are seeing record points, record come backs, etc. We will need offensive output to put up 30+ points, or we can expect to lose.

    I agree, essentially defense alone will not win THIS TEAM games.
    We don't have the horses on defense to be great on that side.
    But this is not a LEAGUE thing it is a TEAM thing.
    Example....Super Bowl

    However, our offense is superior to our defense by a WIDE MARGIN.

    WE go as far as our offense can take us.
    Last edited by Captain Lemming; 10-27-2014, 03:26 PM.
    sigpic



    In view of the fact that Mike Tomlin has matched Cowhers record I give him the designation:

    TCFCLTC-
    The Coach Formerly Considered Less Than Cowher

    Comment

    • sick beats
      Pro Bowler
      • Dec 2013
      • 2144

      #3
      Originally posted by Captain Lemming
      I agree, essentially defense alone will not win THIS TEAM games.
      We don't have the horses on defense to be great on that side.
      But this is not a LEAGUE thing it is a TEAM thing.
      Example....Super Bowl

      However, our offense is superior to our defense by a WIDE MARGIN.

      WE go as far as our offense can take us.
      I believe it is both: THIS team has to win on O, AND, the league in general has to. The rules just make it far too easy for teams to race down field, unless they are really lacking with offensive talent, such as the Jags. If this were NOT a league wide trend, tell me what D exists - THIS YEAR - that wins on D without an offense that can score 30?

      The top Ds are Det., SF, KC, Denver. How many games that those teams play, can they expect to win only scoring 17? A few, but it's not the norm. Good teams have to score at least in the steady high 20's if they expect to have a winning record. Det. has the #1 D and they still have to score in the 20's to win most games.

      Comment

      • Slapstick
        Rookie
        • May 2008
        • 0

        #4
        Seattle's D in the SB is the reason for the emphasis on illegal contact and PI calls...when you are allowed to mug the WR, any D can look great...
        Actually, my post was NOT about you...but, if the shoe fits, feel free to lace that &!+€# up and wear it.

        Comment

        • Captain Lemming
          Legend
          • Jun 2008
          • 16041

          #5
          Originally posted by sick beats
          I believe it is both: THIS team has to win on O, AND, the league in general has to. The rules just make it far too easy for teams to race down field, unless they are really lacking with offensive talent, such as the Jags. If this were NOT a league wide trend, tell me what D exists - THIS YEAR - that wins on D without an offense that can score 30?

          The top Ds are Det., SF, KC, Denver. How many games that those teams play, can they expect to win only scoring 17? A few, but it's not the norm. Good teams have to score at least in the steady high 20's if they expect to have a winning record. Det. has the #1 D and they still have to score in the 20's to win most games.
          Interestingly though among the winningest teams are the best defenses.
          You said D rank is not relevant. It is. A bottom feeder defense cannot be carried by an offense consistently.

          Ben had the best game of his life to get the win and yesterday's game giving up 34 WAS NOT a modern version of good defense.
          Detroit has had offense FOR YEARS and is vastly improved not on offense but because of defense.
          Last edited by Captain Lemming; 10-27-2014, 03:57 PM.
          sigpic



          In view of the fact that Mike Tomlin has matched Cowhers record I give him the designation:

          TCFCLTC-
          The Coach Formerly Considered Less Than Cowher

          Comment

          • WindyCitySteel
            Legend
            • Nov 2011
            • 15684

            #6
            Agree with Lemming. Because our offense hogged the ball, the defense only had to defend for 20:17. In that time, they gave up 454 yards, 7 20+ yard plays, and 34 points. They did score ten of their own, however, and hopefully that can start happening more often.

            I don't see this team being a serious championship contender until they can plug some of the leaks on defense.

            Comment

            • WindyCitySteel
              Legend
              • Nov 2011
              • 15684

              #7
              The Cowboys and Steelers are similar teams this year - they need to keep their defenses off the field and score a lot. The league would probably kill for a Dallas/Pittsburgh Super Bowl. The punters wouldn't have to dress.

              Comment

              • Captain Lemming
                Legend
                • Jun 2008
                • 16041

                #8
                Originally posted by WindyCitySteel
                The Cowboys and Steelers are similar teams this year - they need to keep their defenses off the field and score a lot. The league would probably kill for a Dallas/Pittsburgh Super Bowl. The punters wouldn't have to dress.
                Those are the best ones. That would be awesome
                sigpic



                In view of the fact that Mike Tomlin has matched Cowhers record I give him the designation:

                TCFCLTC-
                The Coach Formerly Considered Less Than Cowher

                Comment

                • sick beats
                  Pro Bowler
                  • Dec 2013
                  • 2144

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Slapstick
                  Seattle's D in the SB is the reason for the emphasis on illegal contact and PI calls...when you are allowed to mug the WR, any D can look great...
                  I agree, which, in turn, is another way of saying the NFL isn't content until no D can shut down and win a ring. They do not want defense domination; they want the air filled with footballs. They were already on this path, but seeing that Seattle and SF were still winning with D and rushing, they tilted the table even more this season.

                  Comment

                  • sick beats
                    Pro Bowler
                    • Dec 2013
                    • 2144

                    #10
                    Originally posted by WindyCitySteel
                    Agree with Lemming. Because our offense hogged the ball, the defense only had to defend for 20:17. In that time, they gave up 454 yards, 7 20+ yard plays, and 34 points. They did score ten of their own, however, and hopefully that can start happening more often.

                    I don't see this team being a serious championship contender until they can plug some of the leaks on defense.
                    My point is: What teams are left that don't have leaks on D? I see no solid Ds compared to year's past. Not even last year. Every team gives up big plays consistently now.

                    Comment

                    • feltdizz
                      Legend
                      • May 2008
                      • 27532

                      #11
                      Originally posted by WindyCitySteel
                      Agree with Lemming. Because our offense hogged the ball, the defense only had to defend for 20:17. In that time, they gave up 454 yards, 7 20+ yard plays, and 34 points. They did score ten of their own, however, and hopefully that can start happening more often.

                      I don't see this team being a serious championship contender until they can plug some of the leaks on defense.
                      these rule changes make it damn near impossible to shut a god team down. IMO that was a pretty good defensive display and timely penalties kept drives alive.

                      I think regardless of how great a D plays it will come down to the offense.

                      Seattle
                      San Fran
                      Carolina

                      I don't think these D's dropped because they stopped playing good D.
                      Steelers 27
                      Rats 16

                      Comment

                      • sick beats
                        Pro Bowler
                        • Dec 2013
                        • 2144

                        #12
                        Originally posted by feltdizz
                        these rule changes make it damn near impossible to shut a god team down. IMO that was a pretty good defensive display and timely penalties kept drives alive.

                        I think regardless of how great a D plays it will come down to the offense.

                        Seattle
                        San Fran
                        Carolina

                        I don't think these D's dropped because they stopped playing good D.
                        I think it's a combination of the further tilting the table for Os and these teams losing some players to injuries, free agency and suspensions. But they would have dropped some just from the tilting of the table in itself.

                        Comment

                        • Mr.wizard
                          Legend
                          • May 2014
                          • 6686

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Captain Lemming
                          Interestingly though among the winningest teams are the best defenses.
                          You said D rank is not relevant. It is. A bottom feeder defense cannot be carried by an offense consistently.

                          Ben had the best game of his life to get the win and yesterday's game giving up 34 WAS NOT a modern version of good defense.
                          Detroit has had offense FOR YEARS and is vastly improved not on offense but because of defense.
                          His point was even though defenses rank as the best in the league they are not dominant units. Which if you compare the defenses of today with years past is probably true.

                          Comment

                          • sick beats
                            Pro Bowler
                            • Dec 2013
                            • 2144

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Mr.wizard
                            His point was even though defenses rank as the best in the league they are not dominant units. Which if you compare the defenses of today with years past is probably true.
                            Yes. Even just 1 year ago, there was a vast difference. The two best teams were SF and Seattle, and they happened to have two of the best defenses, to be sure. But the NFL got its way and now even the best Ds are not able to contain offenses like they did previously. I think our D did play pretty well and still gave up 34. That is the era we are in.

                            Comment

                            • Mr.wizard
                              Legend
                              • May 2014
                              • 6686

                              #15
                              Originally posted by sick beats
                              Yes. Even just 1 year ago, there was a vast difference. The two best teams were SF and Seattle, and they happened to have two of the best defenses, to be sure. But the NFL got its way and now even the best Ds are not able to contain offenses like they did previously. I think our D did play pretty well and still gave up 34. That is the era we are in.
                              It comes down to turnovers and forcing field goals, with the rules and the efficiency of most nfl offenses its really hard to shut teams down.

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