Should the Steelers force Lebeau out?

[papillon]

There is also a report out there that we had more faith in Allen...

Economics were involved but who knows if we kept him on the sideline too long. Lewis also gave Lake a ton of credit in helping to break down the playbook. We drafted Lewis so of course we thought he had something special but once again... when a player does well it's all DL but if he fails it's all on him.

The question was how many players did we let go that flourished once they left... not how many left due to cap space.

Actually, I wouldn't give Lebeau the credit for developing him, that would be Lake, but Lebeau is that one that plays him or not with input from Lake. Players don't get benched for no good reason or because the DC is a HOF coach or the player is a rookie, they get benched because they can't handle their assignments, throwing the tantrum only exacerbated the process.

Economics had a big affect on his not signing, the same as economics had a big affect on re-signing Gay, because he was inexpensive.

As I said before, Lebeau can stay or go, the same with Haley, if they go, the new hire will know enough about football to put a good product on the field. You don't get to coach in the NFL without knowing a little something about the game. My debate with all the "Lebeau must go" crowd is that everyone thinks its a slam dunk that the defense will be better once he's gone and the defense has had two down years, really? If someone held a gun to my head and asked me if his replacement will be able to maintain the excellence that DL has maintained while he been the DC for Pittsburgh, I would select "No way" as my answer.

Is there a DC that has had the same success over the past 8 years or however many you want to count that DL has had? Which team has maintained a defense in the top 10 as often as the Steelers? Seattle? Uh-huh 49ers? Uh-Huh Anyone in the AFC East? That's a joke Giants? Maybe Dallas, Skins and Eagles? Nope NFC South? LOL Etc., you get the idea

Pappy

[Oviedo]

Pap--nothing is a slam dunk about being better, but I think the issue is that many of feel we need to get some new perspectives and a willingness to make changes some of which may be radical.

As an example, just look at our own offense. Ben plays stubborn and the offense stumbles, the OL can't produce holes, Ben keeps hitting the ground, etc. Now look at the last 6 games. Ben embraces change and plays within Haley's system, the OL is a non issue and protects, the running game starts to produce, the Steelers win.

There just seems to be no appetitie for a fundamental change on defense or even the willingness to consider it. The NFL is not the NFL of 2002-2006. Sure there is some minor change stuff around the edges but is it really working when we see a four year trend with decreasing sacks, decreasing INTs, more big plays given up, etc. All this from a defense that is supposedly predicated on pressure, forcing mistakes and getting turnovers as designed by LeBeau. None of that is happening anymore. Why? Is it the players? Only to some extent but what are you going to do, wait 4-5 years to hopefully get just the right players like we had five years ago? You have the players you have so you have to adjust to play to their strengths.

[NorthCoast]

Troy told Shark the easiest way to learn the D is to learn every positions assignments... IMO that is freaking crazy.

Exactly what B Bellichick expects of his players. So we have two HOF candidate coaches against your opinion....

[NorthCoast]

The eye test tells me he has such disdain for rookies, that he doesn't even TRY to develop them, unless the Rooneys tell him he has to, which was the case with JJ. They were so in love with that pick that I am sure DL was told to do everything he could to get him playing ASAP, which turned out to be too early as they ended up benching him.

Such disdain that he played a rookie MLB for half the season.....

and before you say "only because he had to", think again. Could have forced the team to go find an aged vet on the street, since he has all the hiring firing power on defense according to some

[flippy]

We lose Harrison, Smitty, Hampton, Farrior, Lewis, and Foote over the last few years. Woodley's play falls off a cliff. And many of our other defenders are getting long in the tooth. We haven't drafted particularly well recently.

Add it all up and we want to blame Lebeau's scheme and play calling cause he's old. C'mon. I'm not buying it.

If Lebeau was the problem we'd have heard someone say something about him by now as much as the Steelers are covered and not a peep from anyone.

[NorthCoast]

....The problem with your stance is our timetable for developing players was longer back when we had some of those players. In this new NFL we no longer have the luxury....

........

Since Seattle is being held up as the new model for building a defense let me ask how long it took for that defense to pass the "eyeball test"? It certainly wasn't great 3 yrs ago. Wasn't even as good as the Steeler's defense 2 yrs ago. The fact is that it required all the pieces coming together just last season. And let's see how long they can stay there once they start picking at the bottom of the draft like the Steelers have done for a decade. It's the consistency of the Steelers defense that we have been spoiled by as fans. Very few other teams have had such perenial success. If DL had never fielded a great defense or hadn't had one for 4 yrs straight, then I wouldn't argue his firing. But 2 yrs with all the loss in player leadership?... no way a make a call that quickly.

[pittpete]

In todays NFL teams don't have time to develop talent over 3 years.
It took 3 years for Keenan Lewis to be a fit in this defense.
When was the last time we had a young player develop in this defense?
We havn't and thats the problem.
Heyward sat behind a mediocre and below often average Ziggy Hood.
Ziggy Hood never panned out and who knows how good Cam would've been if he started day 1?
Relying on aging veterans while not allowing rooks to contribute has put us in this situation and the DC gets no blame?
Without injuries to Woodley and Foote you know we wouldn't have seen Jones and Williams.
Will Allen gets cut then resigned when younger players are there and the cycle continues.
The #1 defensive ranking means absolutely nothing when you can't sack/pressure the QB or cause turnovers.
We have some good picks in the upcoming draft and we need these guys to contribute sooner rather than later.
Let Butler takeover, LeBeau won't be around next year.

[thor75]

We lose Harrison, Smitty, Hampton, Farrior, Lewis, and Foote over the last few years. Woodley's play falls off a cliff. And many of our other defenders are getting long in the tooth. We haven't drafted particularly well recently.

Add it all up and we want to blame Lebeau's scheme and play calling cause he's old. C'mon. I'm not buying it.

If Lebeau was the problem we'd have heard someone say something about him by now as much as the Steelers are covered and not a peep from anyone.

very well said

[NorthCoast]

In todays NFL teams don't have time to develop talent over 3 years.
It took 3 years for Keenan Lewis to be a fit in this defense.
When was the last time we had a young player develop in this defense?
We havn't and thats the problem.
Heyward sat behind a mediocre and below often average Ziggy Hood.
Ziggy Hood never panned out and who knows how good Cam would've been if he started day 1?
Relying on aging veterans while not allowing rooks to contribute has put us in this situation and the DC gets no blame?
Without injuries to Woodley and Foote you know we wouldn't have seen Jones and Williams.
Will Allen gets cut then resigned when younger players are there and the cycle continues.
The #1 defensive ranking means absolutely nothing when you can't sack/pressure the QB or cause turnovers.
We have some good picks in the upcoming draft and we need these guys to contribute sooner rather than later.
Let Butler takeover, LeBeau won't be around next year.

You are making the assumption that all players develop at the same rate. The lights don't all come on at the same time, that's just human nature. Using your strategy, the Steelers never have the services of JHarrison for example, took too long to develop. The SEA defense was pathetic 3 yrs ago. Using your example, they need to turn over their players now that they have 3 yrs under their belt. Watch and see how many of their draft picks get significant playing time next season, with all these great players on the field in front of them.

[Shoe]

Let's also remember the logjam of coaches, that keeping an old Lebeau on creates. You think Butler will continue to sit and wait indefinitely? You think the golden coach Carnell Lake will eschew coordinator positions, to remain as our DB coach? Jerry Olsavsky, someone who I personally have thought would make an excellent coach someday, is taking interviews now.

[papillon]

Pap--nothing is a slam dunk about being better, but I think the issue is that many of feel we need to get some new perspectives and a willingness to make changes some of which may be radical.

As an example, just look at our own offense. Ben plays stubborn and the offense stumbles, the OL can't produce holes, Ben keeps hitting the ground, etc. Now look at the last 6 games. Ben embraces change and plays within Haley's system, the OL is a non issue and protects, the running game starts to produce, the Steelers win.

There just seems to be no appetite for a fundamental change on defense or even the willingness to consider it. The NFL is not the NFL of 2002-2006. Sure there is some minor change stuff around the edges but is it really working when we see a four year trend with decreasing sacks, decreasing INTs, more big plays given up, etc. All this from a defense that is supposedly predicated on pressure, forcing mistakes and getting turnovers as designed by LeBeau. None of that is happening anymore. Why? Is it the players? Only to some extent but what are you going to do, wait 4-5 years to hopefully get just the right players like we had five years ago? You have the players you have so you have to adjust to play to their strengths.

I'm just not a guy to change something just for the sake of changing it. If you have a short term plan and a long term plan, you stay the course. There is absolutely no empirical evidence that shows Lebeau doesn't make adjustments and changes, that his age and physical health are keeping him from putting in the necessary time to be successful and that he hates rookies and won't play them. What I'm pretty sure we have seen is a very fair man that requires a player to actually out perform the guy in front of him and if he can't, then he doesn't get on the field, it's really that simple.

As I've said, if Lebeau goes, it won't make a difference to me, personally, I think the organization will be weaker for pushing him out rather than allowing him to retire on his own. He has pride, but he's also a company guy and I get the feeling that if he feels he's the problem he'll be the first to get out of the way and let someone else take over. At this point, he believes he can help make the team better, I tend to agree, for now.

Pappy

[pittpete]

Using your strategy, the Steelers never have the services of JHarrison for example, took too long to develop.

Northcoast what are you talking about, wasn't JH an undrafted FA?
Was Harrison going to start over Porter or Gildon?
IIRC they were still both productive OLb's in 2002.
Read my post again, i said younger players need to be counted on sooner than 3 years.
Ike and Clark were dog**** this year, what young CB and safety saw the field?
We resigned Allen because he knows the scheme right...
He had 1 nice game and was average the rest of the way.
Kiesel goes down and who comes back in but the human slide Ziggy Hood.
Lets just leave it at LeBeau can't coach forever and forever should be now IMO.

[feltdizz]

Since Seattle is being held up as the new model for building a defense let me ask how long it took for that defense to pass the "eyeball test"? It certainly wasn't great 3 yrs ago. Wasn't even as good as the Steeler's defense 2 yrs ago. The fact is that it required all the pieces coming together just last season. And let's see how long they can stay there once they start picking at the bottom of the draft like the Steelers have done for a decade. It's the consistency of the Steelers defense that we have been spoiled by as fans. Very few other teams have had such perenial success. If DL had never fielded a great defense or hadn't had one for 4 yrs straight, then I wouldn't argue his firing. But 2 yrs with all the loss in player leadership?... no way a make a call that quickly.

Pete Carroll was hired in 2010.... the reason people are pointing to Seattle is because they made a drastic change in a short period of time. They didnt do it with a bunch of 1st rounders, they did it with late rounders and cast offs in FA.

I'm not concerned with being #1 in ypg or even ppg. I'm more concerned with being physical, getting pressure and creating TO's....

Last year or 2 years ago we were #1 in a few stats but even Stevie Wonder could see our D didn't pass the eye test.

[phillyesq]

Ike and Clark were dog**** this year, what young CB and safety saw the field?What young corner did they have on the roster? None. Schmarko Thomas saw time, then got hurt, then was replaced by Will Allen, who played pretty well.

We resigned Allen because he knows the scheme right...
He had 1 nice game and was average the rest of the way. What better option was there? With Schmarko hurt, who else should have been playing?

Kiesel goes down and who comes back in but the human slide Ziggy Hood. Again, what better option was there?

Lets just leave it at LeBeau can't coach forever and forever should be now IMO.

This post seems long on complaints and short on solutions. We see all these complaints, but no solutions. It's not like the Steelers played Clark while blocking a first round pick from playing. They didn't have much else. Same with corner. After Ike, Gay and Cortez Allen, they had nobody.

[papillon]

Pete Carroll was hired in 2010.... the reason people are pointing to Seattle is because they made a drastic change in a short period of time. They didnt do it with a bunch of 1st rounders, they did it with late rounders and cast offs in FA.

I'm not concerned with being #1 in ypg or even ppg. I'm more concerned with being physical, getting pressure and creating TO's....

Last year or 2 years ago we were #1 in a few stats but even Stevie Wonder could see our D didn't pass the eye test.

I'm not sure who the castoff is on their defense, but they have 2-1st round picks, a second, a third, 1-UDFA and the rest are 4th thru 6th, they certainly have drafted well late and Sherman is the best example as a 5th round selection. Thomas, Sherman, Irvin and Bryant are going to want to get paid, along with Wilson and Lynch. Let's see how good they are in a couple years, if their DC is awesome as many think he is because they are the "defense du-jour"

Until a defense can string together 8-10 years of excellence I'm not getting excited about how great they are. They are great now, hell, next year could be different. The Steelers have been consistently good for so long that when they have down years the fans lose their minds.

Two years of Steeler sub-standard defense while in transition and fans are going fruit loops and while this is certainly on the coaching staff and FO the 2008 and 2009 drafts were horrible. You can't make lemonade out of oranges, poor drafting and players not being able to out perform the player in front of them have led the defense to where it is now, not Lebeau. In 2008 and 2009 the following players were on the field defensively and only Farrior and Smith would be considered long in the tooth at 34 and 33: Harrison, Farrior, Woodley, Polamalu, Taylor, Clark, Hampton, Gay (drafted Burnett to replace), Smith which of those players at that time was a rookie going to outperform? Gay, maybe. You don't just add youth for the sake of adding youth, they have to be able to play and out perform the player in front of them.

The reality is that ages 28-32 are the prime years for great players, you don't just start putting rookies in front of them when they are playing their best football.

All I'm hearing is they played the vets too long, can't change, blah, blah, blah...they played the vets too long because they were the best option to win football games and at the end of the day, that's the goal of a football team.

Pappy