Why 2013 Will Be the Defining Year for Pittsburgh Steelers’ Troy Polamalu

[skyhawk]

Woodson got burned constantly. He was so aggressive. But you were ok with it because he was the best CB/S of his time. Same with Troy.

Is it apples vs oranges between Troy and Lott? Lott changed the position forever. Undoubtedly one of the best ever. Troy is all that put into the modern player. I think I will enjoy what both are right now and not compare and contrast them. During the 3 SBs the Steelers went to recently we all know what made that defense great (Harrison was also great during his MVP season as well). No way the Steelers get to 3 SB's without #43.

And going back to Rod Woodson, if he were 100% healthy that SB game in January 1996 - the Steelers beat the Cowboys. (let's not foget Woodson's natural position was S, not CB. He showed his worth with any team he played with making it to 3 total super bowls. He also didn't lead the NFL in INT's until his final year at age 37 so stats don't always tell the whole story).

[Captain Lemming]

Looking at the stats, there's really no comparison. I'm with you.

Correct

But when you watch their highlight reels, there's no comparison either in the other direction.

Yeah you can say the same about Blake Griffin being "better" than Larry Bird, based on who has better highlights.
Swann better that Rice? Same deal.
You cannot judge "better" over a decade based on 5 minutes of highlights.

As I said earlier, Troy has one maybe two interceptions that are truly amazing. But Lott actually MADE more picks and it aint close. What actually matters HOW spectacularly you make picks, or making more picks?

They also have played in different eras. So it's tough to compare. Was Lott physically just ahead of the game and had an advantage 30 years ago? Guys are so much bigger and faster now. How would Lott's game translate into the modern game?
I think it's easier to compare stats of guys that played in the same era. But when you start crossing eras it gets tougher to really know what the stats mean.

Fact is Lott had a corners speed, so he would be a very fast safety, even today. His size would be fine in todays game. Heck Reed has big int numbers today, why not Lott who was both bigger and FASTER than Reed?

And if we're looking at impact, Troy may be the key player that enabled arguably the best defensive season in NFL history.

The only year that was put in that conversation was 2008. SILLY compared to the 76 Steelers, but let's look at that season and see WHO was the key figure.

James Harrison was league DPOY that season with what was the best OLBer season since Lawrence Taylor.
Harrison got 22 votes, but Troy was close right?
Harrison was followed by:
D Ware 13 votes
ED REED got 8 votes (Troy not voted the best SAFETY never mind comparing him to JH)
Then came Troy with all of TWO votes.

That year was Troys best season, NOT 2010 when he was DPOY.
Harrison was the better, more valuable player BY FAR, in Troys best season.

In the SB that season James Harrison's int gave the cushion we needed so that when Troy and the rest got TORCHED in the second half the game was in reach for Ben to save.
I mentioned Troy and his "risk reward" tendancies. Watch that game and you will see that "risk" contributed to the Cards taking a lead.

I'm not knocking Lott by any means. I can't. His numbers speak for themselves. On that same note, I've seen many greats over the years play live football games and I've never seen a player live that covers the ground that Troy does. It's like he plays on a different level than everyone around him. And if you sent him back 30 years, he'd probably look 4x as fast as everyone else.

But the truth is that HE IS NOT that much faster than everyone else. He just STARTS before everyone else. Dude is 30 yards deep and is SPRINTING towards the LOS before the ball is snapped. Everyone looks slow but it is because he is top speed when they are just starting to move. This leads to spectacular plays true. It also leads to him blowing past runners, whiffing on tackles, trailing a receiver when he guessed wrong etc.

As I said earlier if he is so fast that he can go from centerfield to the backfield at the snap the dude can run a 2 or 3 second 40. It aint possible.

And reality check.....Troy makes a tackle in the backfield about every third game on average. FACT.

Perhaps opposing offenses look at the "style" and avoid Troy at all costs thus limiting his opportunities? So while he definitely can't win on stats, maybe the "style" is worth more than the stat sheet implies?

LOL now that is just reaching dude.
Fact is, Safety is the ONE POSITION that you cannot avoid. They have too much freedom. Troy has the most freedom I have ever seen a safety have.

Didn't Lott also play CB at the beginning of his career? So he had a little bit of a different skillset. Perhaps we should be comparing Lott to Woodson since those guys both started at CB and ended up at S?

Entirely different scenario.
When Woodson lost a step, he was moved to safety.
Lott was was moved during his prime despite being a probowler at corner because he IS a safety (what he played in college).

You cannot compare the two because Woodson was a natural corner while Lott was the prototype safety. Each was better at their natural position.

If you want to make a case that Troy is the GOAT, you gotta compare him to the king.

That king is Ronnie Lott.

[Shoe]

For Troy to ascend to Ronnie Lott status, he's going to have a rebirth in the coming year(s).
If he slowly flames out from this point forward, he will be thought of more in line of a Bob Sanders (although certainly above Sanders) than a Ronnie Lott.

He has to re-emerge (one more time) as an impact player. If he comes out this year and gives another 29 tackles, 1 INT, 0 FF performance, he won't ever be considered with the all-time greats.

[flippy]

If you want to make a case that Troy is the GOAT, you gotta compare him to the king.

That king is Ronnie Lott.

Your king never had to deal with taking guys out of a game with the athleticism of TO to Antonio Gates week in and week out. The NFL is completely different. Nearly every team has a WR/TE or 2 that are athletic freaks. Either they are fast as lightning or they are big as bears. Lott never saw that in his day. He was as big and fast as any of the offensive players he faced.

Troy doesn't have that luxury.

[Captain Lemming]

Your king never had to deal with taking guys out of a game with the athleticism of TO to Antonio Gates week in and week out. The NFL is completely different. Nearly every team has a WR/TE or 2 that are athletic freaks. Either they are fast as lightning or they are big as bears. Lott never saw that in his day. He was as big and fast as any of the offensive players he faced.

Troy doesn't have that luxury.

Yes, Troy doesnt have that luxury. Is THAT why Troy makes fewer picks in a pass happy league?
Is that why Troy makes fewer tackles? Is his mind so consumed with athletic tight ends that he is les prolific.

Why do we assume Lott who would be our tallest starting safety cant cover todays tight ends?

Would LT not be able to be great today? Could Deon not cover todays bigger receivers?

WOULD 6'3" MEL BLOUNT not be able to cover todays receivers because he never faced that kind of size (well you had an occasional tall skinny like Harold Carmichael, but no Megatron).

Tell me 250 pound Mike Webster would be a smaller not as strong Legurski today, we can talk.

But there is no basis to assume a player with todays size would be handicapped.

If we drafted a young Ronnie Lott in April nobody would say dude is too small to cover tight ends.

Flippy you keep referring to "highlights".

Did you watch actual Niner games? Are you too young, or were the games not shown there?

As I said ealier, I saw a TON of Niners where I lived.

Lotts greatest skill is that he was ALWAYS around the ball. He was even better than Troy (who shares this talent) at that. Troy reads and anticipates very well but he commits SO early he takes himself plays too. Additionally, whether it was how he tackled or how he covered, Lott was way more sound fundamentally.

Making more plays, always being around the ball, sound fundamentals do not a sportcenter highlight make. But they matter because you are a factor in more plays.

If you go by "highlights" James Farrior was a scrub and Kendrell Bell was better.

I think you can describe the two this way:

Troy is AMAZING while Lott was close to FLAWLESS in how he played the position.

Both are great but the guy who makes MORE plays, has more picks, creates more fumbles, and is a much more sound and sure tackler, was better than the hairy human highlight film.

[flippy]

I've seen some 49er games usually if they were the 4 oclock game of the week when the Steelers werent playing at the same time or playoff games. I always thought Lott was good. But he never stood out as the most memorable player on the team. Most of my 49ers memories were of Montana, Young, and Rice.

I've also never seen the 49ers live and I think it's nearly impossible to see most of what any DB is doing on tv unless they show a different angle on a replay. The first game I saw Troy live at Heinz was when I realized how special he is. I think seeing some players in person is the only way to appreciate how good a player someone is. If I had seen Lott live, maybe I'd have more of an appreciation, but I haven't.

Troy may not have Lott like stats, but I've never seen any player have Troy's type of impact on a game. The only thing we really have to judge most DBs is their highlights and stats because the broadcast focuses on the ball and unfortunately most of what a DB does isn't know by watching a game on tv.

[Captain Lemming]

I've seen some 49er games usually if they were the 4 oclock game of the week when the Steelers werent playing at the same time or playoff games. I always thought Lott was good. But he never stood out as the most memorable player on the team. Most of my 49ers memories were of Montana, Young, and Rice. I've also never seen the 49ers live and I think it's nearly impossible to see most of what any DB is doing on tv unless they show a different angle on a replay. The first game I saw Troy live at Heinz was when I realized how special he is. I think seeing some players in person is the only way to appreciate how good a player someone is. If I had seen Lott live, maybe I'd have more of an appreciation, but I haven't.

I hear ya

Troy may not have Lott like stats, but I've never seen any player have Troy's type of impact on a game. The only thing we really have to judge most DBs is their highlights and stats because the broadcast focuses on the ball and unfortunately most of what a DB does isn't know by watching a game on tv.

Flippy, "impact on the game" for a safety generally produce STATS. I guess a lockdown corner can be pretty invisible but a safety has more freedom to go to the action.

Interceptions- impact the game
Forced fumbles impact the game
Returns for touchdowns - impact the game
Separating a receiver from the ball- Impacts the game
Every single tackle impacts the game

I listed 5 DIFFERENT CATEGORIES and Lott bests TP in EVERY SINGLE QUANTIFIABLE WAY.

What has greater "impact" more total ints or fewer spectacular ones that we see over and over again?

Lott created TEN TURNOVERS in twenty playoff game. A turnover every other game. How does Troy have a greater impact than that? I mention stats because they matter. You cannot ignore them while saying Troy makes more of an impact.

Ditto with tackles. Troy makes an amazing backfield tackle 3 or 4 times a season.

Lott made more tackles.......and they LITERALLY made a greater "impact"

Quote
In Super Bowl XXIII, Ickey Woods, the Bengals' powerful running back, found out just how hard a Ronnie Lott hit could be. Early on, Woods was running for big gains against the San Francisco defense. After the Bengals' first series, Lott came to the sidelines and announced, "Don't worry about Ickey, I'm going to put his fire out." According to Ray Rhodes, who coached San Francisco's secondary, Lott hit Woods with such force that "it just knocked Ickey's spark right out of him. The game turned right then because Ickey just didn't run with the same authority after that."

Lott literally, ended a star running backs desire to compete IN THE SUPERBOWL.

THAT MY FRIEND is making an impact.

Check the video, legal hit EVEN TODAY:

[Jooser]

Troy will be DMVP this season on the way to #7.

There ya go folks, no more debate on the subject as the truth has already been spoken.

[Oviedo]

I love Polamalu but Lott would get my vote as better. I think Troy gets overhyped a bit because of the hair and the way he moves all over the defense---many time taking him out of position to make plays. Lott was a much better tackler than Troy could ever hope to be and he could generate more turnovers (double the career INTs).

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Whichever side of the Lott/Troy debate you fall on, one thing for sure.. USC produces some pretty good safeties.

[flippy]

Interceptions- impact the game
Forced fumbles impact the game
Returns for touchdowns - impact the game
Separating a receiver from the ball- Impacts the game
Every single tackle impacts the game

I listed 5 DIFFERENT CATEGORIES and Lott bests TP in EVERY SINGLE QUANTIFIABLE WAY.

Troy has 4 TDs in 114 starts to Lott's 5 TDs in 189, so Troy is on pace in one of the categories to surpass Lott. Total tackles for Troy of 648 to Lott's 1146 is nearly identical with Troy projected to be at 1174 in 189 games. Troy's on a 50 INT pace to Lott's 62. Not to bad considering 23 of Lott's INTs came when he played CB.

The 5th category of pass defenses wasn't tracked in Lott's era, so that's not a stat we can compare.

Another category in Troy's favor is sacks. He's at 10 to Lott's 8.5 over his career. I'm sure Troy also has more QB pressures and probably has a better pace of tackles for loss which are 2 more impact categories I can't verify.

Another thing to consider is these 2 guys didn't play the same position for very long. Lott played 5 years at LCB, 7 years at FS., and 2 at SS whereas Troy has played SS his entire career.

Another thing to factor in all of this is the rest of the defensive units. Troy doesn't have to make as many tackles because he's been surrounded by great players throughout his career. Who else did Lott play with? I remember Charles Haley being dominant around that time, but can't think of any others that stick out off the top of my head? As a last line of defense, you get stats when your teammates in front of you don't make plays. Lott may have had a lot more opportunities given the quality of the unit he played on.

Both guys have their pluses and minuses, but I'm not sure it's as clear one is better than the other. The only thing Lott has for certain is more games at this point. The stat rate is fairly close if Troy ends up playing as many games.

[Oviedo]

Troy has 4 TDs in 114 starts to Lott's 5 TDs in 189, so Troy is on pace in one of the categories to surpass Lott. Total tackles for Troy of 648 to Lott's 1146 is nearly identical with Troy projected to be at 1174 in 189 games. Troy's on a 50 INT pace to Lott's 62. Not to bad considering 23 of Lott's INTs came when he played CB.

The 5th category of pass defenses wasn't tracked in Lott's era, so that's not a stat we can compare.

Another category in Troy's favor is sacks. He's at 10 to Lott's 8.5 over his career. I'm sure Troy also has more QB pressures and probably has a better pace of tackles for loss which are 2 more impact categories I can't verify.

Another thing to consider is these 2 guys didn't play the same position for very long. Lott played 5 years at LCB, 7 years at FS., and 2 at SS whereas Troy has played SS his entire career.

Another thing to factor in all of this is the rest of the defensive units. Troy doesn't have to make as many tackles because he's been surrounded by great players throughout his career. Who else did Lott play with? I remember Charles Haley being dominant around that time, but can't think of any others that stick out off the top of my head? As a last line of defense, you get stats when your teammates in front of you don't make plays. Lott may have had a lot more opportunities given the quality of the unit he played on.

Both guys have their pluses and minuses, but I'm not sure it's as clear one is better than the other. The only thing Lott has for certain is more games at this point. The stat rate is fairly close if Troy ends up playing as many games.

Lott also had his 63 INTs in an era of much less passing and Troy will never reach 50 INTs. He won't be healthy and on the field enough to even get close. I'd be surprised if he gets 40.

Lott's durability in a much more physical era just totally tips the scales in his favor when comparing to Troy.

[hawaiiansteel]

I love Polamalu but Lott would get my vote as better.

as much as I love Troy, I have to agree with you on this:

Ronnie Lott's Accomplishments: 10x Pro Bowl, 8x All-Pro Team, 4x Super Bowl Champion, NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team, 1980s All-Decade Team, 1990s All-Decade Team

[flippy]

Lott also had his 63 INTs in an era of much less passing and Troy will never reach 50 INTs. He won't be healthy and on the field enough to even get close. I'd be surprised if he gets 40.

Lott's durability in a much more physical era just totally tips the scales in his favor when comparing to Troy.

You do realize they play 2 different positions? Lott played a lot more in coverage at FS/CB while Troy spent more time in the box at SS. And at the pace he's on, if he does get to 50 INTs, he'd only be the second SS to reach 50 INTs in his career. The other being Donnie Shell. All the top guys in terms of INTs are FSs and CBs. It's crazy to compare a SS's INT numbers to a FS/CB.

Re: Lott's durability, he only played 16 games in 5 out of his 14 years in the league. And surprisingly his best health was at the end of his career. The less durable Troy has played 16 games 4 out of 9 years.

Although, I'm sure some would argue that Ronnie would have had his calf amputated if it was a problem cause he was so tough

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

It appears that Troy will not be considered the greatest safety of all time regardless of what this season brings.

It also appears that he is already worthy of being in the conversation - so, suffice to say that he is already a top 5 of all time.

Which means that 2013 will not be a career defining year. His place in history is already set - one of the greatest, but not number 1.

So the article that started this 3 page discussion is wrong!!!