I don't get the hype over Minter

[Captain Lemming]

Well then, maybe they belong with the Patriots...

Embarrassed to say I had to stare at this for some time before I got it.

[SS Laser]

I think Timmons is best when he's playing in the box instead of dropping into coverage. Did you notice at the end of the season when Troy was playing, Lebeau wasn't dropping Timmons into coverage as much and we were able to create turnovers.

Timmons doesn't always have to blitz, but the threat always has to be there. That will force guys to account for him so their QB doesn't get killed.

And that's why I'd like another LB with Timmons' skillset playing next to him. That way you don't know who's dropping and who's covering. Heck, Woodley was pushing 300 lbs and DL still has him dropping to cover RBs/TEs regularly. And he's often adequate.

The reality is the guy next to Timmons is gonna drop half the time and have to cover WRs/TEs/RBs. So a guy like Minter would have been a much better fit 5-10 years ago. Now he doesn't offer the same value.

And given Tomlin's track record, he like LBs with athleticism and he likes positional flexibility.

I agree Flippy! Timmons in the box scares QB's. Kind of like Troy does. But with Timmons in the box no need for Troy to be faking it (out of position) or being in the box. I want another Timmons like ILB. Think this was the idea for Spence. He is just so much a unknown now. He had the skills to cover coming in but does he now? I think there will be a few athletic ILB or OLB that can play 3-4 ILB in rounds 3-7. Split time with Foote this year and learn. Maybe get lucky and he be a ok back up at OLB? That way if Spence can come back and shine it would not be a wasted pick. Or Timmons can still back up OLB with Spence and drafted ILB playing the middle.

[feltdizz]

This is one of the reasons I hate the combine. People start seeing times, height/weight, etc. and make decisions on players. Look at the player's tape and talk to the player. That's how you rank them. Maybe, and I say maybe, use the stats from the combine as a tie-breaker. What the guy does on the field during games determines what kind of player he is. Not, as they say, what he does in gymn shorts.

ehhh I think for the most part the combine does it's role... every once and a while a work out warrior moves up and a good player falls but it's not that common.

I think a bigger concern is all the mid major players who get left out because they didn't have a certain name on the front of their jersey.

[steelsnis]

I regurgitate every time I read one of Lloydroid's 8,000 threads...

[steelz09]

This is the problem I have with 40 times. A guy like Dion Jordan tested very well. At 6'6 240 lbs, that guy is going to get manhandled by a LT. I'm just as impressed with Minter running a 4.8 at 6'1 247lbs as I am with Dion Jordan.

Dion Jordan should probably gain another 25 pounds with his frame. Will he run a 4.6 with 25 extra pounds? Doubtful. So, what does that mean? That means that by the time Jordan is NFL-ready from a size standpoint, he'll likely be slower than Minter.

I said the same thing about Hightower last year. I said the same thing about Timmons when he was drafted. He was quick and fast but he was to small and it showed especially for an ILB. Timmons is now NFL size and it shows. Can Timmons run the same time he ran in the NFL Combine with his added weight? No way. Do you honestly think Timmons could run faster than a 4.8 at his current size. I HIGHLY doubt it. Put that into perspective when you put a preference on a faster undersized player compared to a slower but NFL-ready (from a size perspective) player..

[Dee Dub]

This is the problem I have with 40 times. A guy like Dion Jordan tested very well. At 6'6 240 lbs, that guy is going to get manhandled by a LT. I'm just as impressed with Minter running a 4.8 at 6'1 247lbs as I am with Dion Jordan.

Dion Jordan should probably gain another 25 pounds with his frame. Will he run a 4.6 with 25 extra pounds? Doubtful. So, what does that mean? That means that by the time Jordan is NFL-ready from a size standpoint, he'll likely be slower than Minter.

I said the same thing about Hightower last year. I said the same thing about Timmons when he was drafted. He was quick and fast but he was to small and it showed especially for an ILB. Timmons is now NFL size and it shows. Can Timmons run the same time he ran in the NFL Combine with his added weight? No way. Do you honestly think Timmons could run faster than a 4.8 at his current size. I HIGHLY doubt it. Put that into perspective when you put a preference on a faster undersized player compared to a slower but NFL-ready (from a size perspective) player..

Yeah and what you will get out of Dion Jordan will more than likely be what Seattle got out of Bruce Irvin....8 sacks...and nothing else (10 solo tackles all year).

[lloydroid]

I regurgitate every time I read one of Lloydroid's 8,000 threads...

Who is forcing you to read them?

[Dee Dub]

Who is forcing you to read them?

Suggestion..go youtube the LSU-Florida game (20 tackles-17 solo, 2 sacks), this past year or the Texas A & M game (who had a great O-line-12 tackles, 1 sack, 1 INT), or the Clemson game (19 tackles).

For the season (in the SEC), he had 130 tackles, 15 tackles for loss, 4 sacks, 1 INT, 6 PD's, 1 FF.

Sorry man...I am impressed. Big time.

[Keyplay1]

Interesting. It sounds like you might have taken a look at the article in SS Laser's thread Winners and Losers where he posted a link to an evaluation system that was in a Bleacher Report.

There was little response. I think I know why. Usually those systems are real technical and gobbledegooky. But I took a look at it anyhow and actually it was quite simple. It was in 3 parts. Part 2 is 1st since it is very common.

2.. He added the Reps, vert jump, and the broad jump. Simple enough. This is also very popular and is usually called the KEI. [Kirwan Explosion Index] A Score of 70 is considered real good for the bigger guys. DL OL LB.

1. He then averaged the 40, short shuttle and 3cone for these players. Explained in the article.

"The first component is the Dynamic Speed Average, or DSA. This measurement determines the complete speed of a prospect by averaging the times between their 40-yard dash (straight-line speed), three-cone drill (change-of-direction ability) and short shuttle (lateral speed/stop-and-go). This number is a more complete representation of a player's actual football speed than any one drill in a vacuum."

Okay, still simple enough except for all the fancy labeling. Between the KEI and the attempt to determine actual football speed that should be more than enough to get a very valid measure of a players athletic ability.

But then, he had to go to a step 3. Now the gobbledegooky crap came in. He has some method of including the weights, height etc. It definitely changed some results. And IMO was not necessay since most players in each grouping are similar in size. Although, it did make sense in the WR grouping since these players range from 5-8 168 pds to 64-5etc but even then you could simple regroups them according to size for evaluating purposes.

Conclusion. I don't think anyone read the article. But actually of the 21 players he measures. Almost everyone that was a winner was a player well regarded on the board, and actually some of the losers were also players rapped here. So maybe must watching players is the best system after all.

But if someone could see the value of including the size factor maybe that would be the edge in truly ranking players.

SteelZ09 seemed to include the #3 size factor in his post. He also replied to the "Winners and losers" thread. Maybe that is where he got that idea?

[Keyplay1]

Maybe this will be clearer?

Conclusion. I don't think anyone read the article. But actually of the 21 players he measures. Almost everyone that was a winner was a player well regarded on the board, and actually some of the losers were also players rapped here. So maybe must watching players is the best system after all.


But if someone could see the value of including the size factor maybe that would be the edge in truly ranking players.


SteelZ09 seemed to include the #3 size factor in his post. He also replied to the "Winners and losers" thread. Maybe that is where he got that idea?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Keyplay1]

Well that seemed to work, might as well try and finish it.

"[COLOR=#373737][FONT=Droid Sans]The first component is the Dynamic Speed Average, or DSA. This measurement determines the complete speed of a prospect by averaging the times between their 40-yard dash (straight-line speed), three-cone drill (change-of-direction ability) and short shuttle (lateral speed/stop-and-go). This number is a more complete representation of a player's actual football speed than any one drill in a vacuum."


Okay, still simple enough except for all the fancy labeling. Between the KEI and the attempt to determine actual football speed that should be more than enough to get a very valid measure of a players athletic ability.


But then, he had to go to a step 3. Now the gobbledegooky crap came in. He has some method of including the weights, height etc. It definitely changed some results. And IMO was not necessay since most players in each grouping are similar in size. Although, it did make sense in the WR grouping since these players range from 5-8 168 pds to 64-5etc but even then you could simple regroups them according to size for evaluating purposes.

[lloydroid]

Suggestion..go youtube the LSU-Florida game (20 tackles-17 solo, 2 sacks), this past year or the Texas A & M game (who had a great O-line-12 tackles, 1 sack, 1 INT), or the Clemson game (19 tackles).

For the season (in the SEC), he had 130 tackles, 15 tackles for loss, 4 sacks, 1 INT, 6 PD's, 1 FF.

Sorry man...I am impressed. Big time.

OK, I watched some of the vids. He did make a lot of plays, but I did also see a back or WR outrun him on the outside, leaving him in the dust in not in position to lay a finger on them. I am guessing you will tell me it's not his role to catch any ball carriers on the outside, and maybe you are right. I am just saying I have seen NFL ILBs make those plays, including Timmons, on a regular basis. Even Ray Lewis, with his 4.7 speed (not bad, but not great) make plays on the outside, running down a ball carrier trying to go outside and then upfield.

[Dee Dub]

OK, I watched some of the vids. He did make a lot of plays, but I did also see a back or WR outrun him on the outside, leaving him in the dust in not in position to lay a finger on them. I am guessing you will tell me it's not his role to catch any ball carriers on the outside, and maybe you are right. I am just saying I have seen NFL ILBs make those plays, including Timmons, on a regular basis. Even Ray Lewis, with his 4.7 speed (not bad, but not great) make plays on the outside, running down a ball carrier trying to go outside and then upfield.

lloydroid, WR's are suppose to outrun LB's. And for the most part so are RB's. Look, Minter played in the best conference in all of college football and he raked up tackles and big plays. He is always going to be better coming forward/downhill than he is going away/sideline but if he played for the Steelers he would be next to one of the best pursuit LB's in the game. It would be a great fit. And of course I feel the same about T'eo. But we all know that.

[lloydroid]

lloydroid, WR's are suppose to outrun LB's. And for the most part so are RB's. Look, Minter played in the best conference in all of college football and he raked up tackles and big plays. He is always going to be better coming forward/downhill than he is going away/sideline but if he played for the Steelers he would be next to one of the best pursuit LB's in the game. It would be a great fit. And of course I feel the same about T'eo. But we all know that.

At this point, I am willing to concede you might be right; you have watched him a lot more than I have. The only reason I doubted him, is the seemingly visible slow speed I watched him run the 40. I just thought good NFL LBs ran faster than that. But if what you say is true, he will be a tackling machine in the middle of the field, and won't be relied on to cover too much, or make tackles on plays that go outside.

[Dee Dub]

At this point, I am willing to concede you might be right; you have watched him a lot more than I have. The only reason I doubted him, is the seemingly visible slow speed I watched him run the 40. I just thought good NFL LBs ran faster than that. But if what you say is true, he will be a tackling machine in the middle of the field, and won't be relied on to cover too much, or make tackles on plays that go outside.

The reality of it is that there are a lot of good NFL ILB's who ran 4.75 or above at their combine. The 40 isnt nearly as important for that position as the 3 cone drill and the two shuttle drills.

D'Qwell Jackson 4.79
Curtis Lofton 4.79
Stephen Tulloch 4.84
Lance Briggs 4.75
Lofa Tatupu 4.83
Barrett Rudd 4.75
James Laurinaitis 4.76
Vontaze Burfict 4.93