Harrison Says He Won't Take a Paycut--Bye James!

[fezziwig]

It might be a fluke that James Harrison has had his share of injuries these last two seasons. The Steelers gambled in my opinion on Aron Smith and to me it failed. They have also been rolling the dice with Colon and failed. If I was to feel we should get rid of James Harrison it is only due to being worried if he can make it through a season. As mentioned on the above post or two, I'd take a 85% James Harrison over anyone on our team.
And you guys are right as rain, the old guys are still better than the young guys but at some point, you need to allow the youth their chance and learn if they can get the job done.

I'd rather go 6-10 knowing we are trying to improve our team rather than going 8-8 or 10-6 with knowing that, we are skating on thin ice with guys that should retire or are no longer the long term future. My way of thinking is we may have found some young guys that have finally taken control of the team, their career and improved or we get higher draft picks and eventually we will be a power house again.

Skirting each season as a 500 team plus or minus a game or two either way doesn't build a good team, it just keeps you at 500 for seasons to come.

[papillon]

That is fair Pap. You know I am not one of the "I told you so" guys. We have all been spot on and a "shade" off. lol

Doesn't matter who is right or wrong here. If you are right, the Steelers failed miserably on draft choice and talent evaluating that will set the team back. We are talking about 2 first rounders and a second. You miss sometimes but the Steelers are good early. They players in waiting have been on the roster 3 or more years so that is alot of wasted time and resources if your theory is true. I don't believe that is the case but we will see. Players are not kept on the Steelesr roster simply as roster fillers. They have potential or can contribute.

The arrow on this team is not going up because of any of the guys being thrown around as cuts. A year younger they showed an 8-8. The teams ceiling for 2013 is set by the guys behind the starters who will replace them or the draft class. That is the whole reason they are in the "cut" conversation if someone is behind them. They are older and the gap has closed. Their salary and the Steelers cap situation makes them a candidate. This team is sitting between 7-9 & 9-7 with and without the vets everyone wants to hold on to. The window is that close. To keep a "fan favorite" vet you lose a young talent. You are washing the talent for a year or two but hurting the teams future.

I keep hearing from everyone about a young guy not being able to take a vets spot so that makes them garbage...Give up on him! I will start off by saying all of them signed their last contract with nobody in place behind them with certainty. That is a huge part of my evalution process on what is going to transpire. The Steelers had the "luxury" over the last several drafts to take the BPA because they didn't have many holes on their roster and were competing. The drafted guys at positions to learn behind very productive vets. If it is close, the vets are going to start. It would take ALOT to unseat a vet at the beginning or middle of a contract. The business side of the game will tell you when it is time. Until that time, you are building a talented deep roster that contends almost every year. BUT....At some point the scale tilts...And the change has to be made to transition & stay competive. That time comes at the end of the contract and when the player is in decline.

I mentioned in another post about the starters in place each year after Cowher's last year. Stability & low turnover has been the key to their success. 11-2012, 16-2011, 16-2010, 18-2009, 19-2008, & 20-2007. That was the core run. 50% of the starters were still in place last year from Cowher. That can't last forever. People are taking to heart the name on the back of the jersey. It isn't about that. We will all luv and respect them if they move on. It is about what is best for the organization now & the future. You never sacrifice the future for NOW to be a successful organization. You always have to consider the future for the now. We have seen what happens if you don't. You create "Gaps" of production that goes years & years. The Steelers have always lived by that philosophy. When the time comes and that decision that we all hate has to be made....They make it on the future. We didn't think there was a chance they would let Woodson, Lake, Faneca, LLoyd, or Thigpen leave via FA. We sure the hell didn't think the Steelers would cut our heroes like Kirkland, Porter, Farrior, or Ward. The Steelers are right in the middle of it again...Over their heads. They don't have the ability to hold on to all their young talent.... But they will scramble to try.

I don't think this is a case of going younger just to go younger. I think in most cases it is a matter of going younger because the gap has closed based on the vets decline and the salary cap issues makes it a must. Simply saying he is the "Best Option" would mean something if they all got the same paycheck. It is a business..No matter how you look at it. So "The Right Option" makes more sense. A 2013 35 year old Harrison couting 10 mil or a 25 year old Worilds counting $985,000 against the cap. The production gap has been narrowed significantly. Now add in the fact that keeping Harrison may cost you Lewis or other URFA and not give you a clear evaluation on Worilds for his next contract. So now you offer Worilds less than he thinks he is worth and goes elsewhere and flurishes. Or the more damaging thing, you offer Worilds too much based on what you think he could be (Because he doesn't have a full year starting) and it turns out to be a mistake. If I'm playing one game and need an OLB the "Best Option" is Harrison. If I'm trying to run an organization and I am faced with above... the "Right Option" would be Worilds.

JPN, I can't disagree with anything you say here. The business side of the game in this instance is causing the Steelers to probably make personnel decisions that they may not want to make this year when it comes to the veterans. I suffered through the 80s and the non competitiveness of the team after the HOFers retired or finally couldn't compete any longer. Unfortunately, while the majority of this crop of veterans aren't HOFers they are very good football players compared to those waiting to take over (IMO) and I fear the same. The only difference this time is that the Steelers do have a quarterback in place that is a proven winner.

In the next 3 to 4 weeks the Steelers will have to reveal their hand to a degree. I believe they have to be under the cap limit on or near March 14th. We'll know a lot at that point about the team and the draft in all likelihood.

Pappy

[Eich]

I'm not sure Cowher could have won another Super Bowl let alone made it to two Super Bowls like Tomlin. Cowhers days as a Steeler coach seemed to be running on fumes. He had his favorite players and I commend him for being in their corner but, I doubt we would have ever learned what a sensation James Harrison would be had Cowher remained on the team. I doubt we would have had the players that won our last Super Bowl, plugged in at the time as starters under Cowher.
Obviously it's just my guess and maybe they were a franchise of destiny at that time with or without Bill.

With Art II being more aggressive in my opinion to win Super Bowls and to see results quicker than Art Sr. and Dan Rooney, I think they will calculate for a new had coach a little faster the next time they see their team/teams not making the grade.

The reason why I say this is, at the end of the 2003 season Art II was interviewed ( a quick in passing interview ) and asked what he thought about the season and the new season ahead of us/them for 2004. Art II quickly snapped back with, " I'm ready to win the Super Bowl " We should be winning Super Bowls " (Something to those words) He was ticked off and he didn't hold back with his emotions. I never gave him much thought on the like and dislike meter but after that, I like and respect Art II. When he fired Arians and I think it was on him,, when he fired Arians I knew this guy can see where the problems were at with our offense.

It just so happened Cowher won a Super Bowl the following season in 2004.

Just a minor correction: 15-1 in 2004 with Rookie Ben. Super Bowl in 2005. Retired after poor 8-8 showing in 2006, where Ben nearly died.

[Oviedo]

JPN, I can't disagree with anything you say here. The business side of the game in this instance is causing the Steelers to probably make personnel decisions that they may not want to make this year when it comes to the veterans. I suffered through the 80s and the non competitiveness of the team after the HOFers retired or finally couldn't compete any longer. Unfortunately, while the majority of this crop of veterans aren't HOFers they are very good football players compared to those waiting to take over (IMO) and I fear the same. The only difference this time is that the Steelers do have a quarterback in place that is a proven winner.

In the next 3 to 4 weeks the Steelers will have to reveal their hand to a degree. I believe they have to be under the cap limit on or near March 14th. We'll know a lot at that point about the team and the draft in all likelihood.

Pappy

I'm not sure that we can write off the players who are waiting to step in. We don't know until they get a chance. People forget that in Porter's last year while Harrison got some spot playing time in 16 games he had "Zero" sacks and then in his first year as a starter he had 8.5. IMO Worilds is already further ahead in his development than Harrison was in the same situation. In spot playing time Worilds had 5 sacks in 2012. I think that everyone looks at 2008 and Harrison's 16 sacks and act like he's had that every year. He has had three consecutive years of 16, 10, and 10.5 sacks, but he has not hit double digits for two years now and has played a total of just 24 games in two years. Sorry, but that is player at the end of his career.

[fezziwig]

Just a minor correction: 15-1 in 2004 with Rookie Ben. Super Bowl in 2005. Retired after poor 8-8 showing in 2006, where Ben nearly died.

Yep your correct and thanks. But the point is, Art II spoke his mind with being upset and the following year the Steelers defeated the Seahawks in the Super Bowl. I wish he would gripe more when asked. Might be good mojo

[papillon]

I'm not sure that we can write off the players who are waiting to step in. We don't know until they get a chance. People forget that in Porter's last year while Harrison got some spot playing time in 16 games he had "Zero" sacks and then in his first year as a starter he had 8.5. IMO Worilds is already further ahead in his development than Harrison was in the same situation. In spot playing time Worilds had 5 sacks in 2012. I think that everyone looks at 2008 and Harrison's 16 sacks and act like he's had that every year. He has had three consecutive years of 16, 10, and 10.5 sacks, but he has not hit double digits for two years now and has played a total of just 24 games in two years. Sorry, but that is player at the end of his career.

I'd go along with that except Harrison played 13 games this year, missed the first month and took the next 6 games to get back to being James. He didn't get hurt the rest of the year and as you know from watching him over the years he doesn't play at half speed ever. He was stout in the running game and getting pressure on the quarterback regardless of what the one media rag says. He never was real good in coverage in large spaces, but on a condensed field (red zone) he was good at reading the short passing game.

I admit, I love James Harrison's style and attitude and he's one of my favorites of all time. I also know that his time is over with the Steelers and it isn't because of his production. I fully believe that in 2013 and 2014 he will get double digit sacks, 4 or 5 FF, 70-80 tackles and its doubtful that he gets an INT in either season. I wish it was for the Steelers, but its highly unlikely. I'll miss James Harrison.

Pappy

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

JPN, I can't disagree with anything you say here. The business side of the game in this instance is causing the Steelers to probably make personnel decisions that they may not want to make this year when it comes to the veterans. I suffered through the 80s and the non competitiveness of the team after the HOFers retired or finally couldn't compete any longer. Unfortunately, while the majority of this crop of veterans aren't HOFers they are very good football players compared to those waiting to take over (IMO) and I fear the same. The only difference this time is that the Steelers do have a quarterback in place that is a proven winner.

In the next 3 to 4 weeks the Steelers will have to reveal their hand to a degree. I believe they have to be under the cap limit on or near March 14th. We'll know a lot at that point about the team and the draft in all likelihood.

Pappy

It will be an anxious time over the month...Even for us fans. I think you are spot on with the cuts even last year. Even the case of not re-signing vets. They all could have or would contribute in some capacity but the business side of football makes in almost impossible. Who wouldn't like to have the football player Harrison on this roster? If there is some years left in him....The Steelers could benefit even if in a rotation or reserve capacity. If $$$$ & FA wasn't the issues, you could find a way. Harrison won't take a pay cut and restructuring doesn't look like the answer. Add in the fact you have a 2nd rounder behind him 10 years younger headed for FA with not certainty because of lacks of snaps & starts to grow....It is a win-lose. Can't blame Harrison standing his ground and whatever happens won't change my feeling about him.