Why this D can't stop anyone in the 4th Q.

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  • lloydroid
    Pro Bowler
    • Aug 2012
    • 2026

    Why this D can't stop anyone in the 4th Q.

    We've had this problem with the D for several years now. Actually, even though Cowher has this amazing stat about him always winning when he is ahead in the 2nd half, there were signs of it then, to some degree. Here is my theory.

    The reason this team's D folds in the later part of the game is because teams have to just throw and throw. And, that is how you beat this D. When teams try to use downs rushing the ball, they mostly fail, leaving them with less downs of throwing the ball. Once teams just use most downs to pass, they get into a rhythm. When going a more traditional attack, they don't get into the rhythm and waste a lot of downs on rushes that don't usually work well vs. this D (or they didn't used to, we will see, McFadden jacked them up.)

    Do you remember the 2001 season? (I think). Our first two opponents had potent passing games and BOTH didn't bother with the rush, pretty much all game (The Tom Brady Patriots and then the Rich Gannon Raiders). Both teams ripped the D to shreds and we couldn't stop them all game. I believe that teams behind in the 4th go into the same mode, of just passing it all over the field, and it works, as that is the way you beat our D. GB did it to us in the Super Bowl as well. As games enter that phase, QBs get rolling and our pass rush gets gassed and that's a bad combination. And, let's be fair, all this chat about how horrible Palmer is, well, that's not entirely true. He is a pro bowl QB and this is his first full year with his new team. Yes, at one point, he was overrated, but he isn't chopped liver either. He has a nice, strong arm and led the AFC in passing heading into this game. Plus, he is very familiar with Pgh's D.

    Any how, that's my theory one why this D often crumbles down the stretch.

    It's not like the players just don't care and quit trying. They want to win more than we want them to win.
  • Slapstick
    Rookie
    • May 2008
    • 0

    #2
    This D is too dependent upon having Troy and Harrison healthy...

    There are other players who can do different things, but we don't emphasize those players schematically...
    Actually, my post was NOT about you...but, if the shoe fits, feel free to lace that &!+€# up and wear it.

    Comment

    • steelz09
      Administrator
      • Jan 2008
      • 4675

      #3
      I disagree to a certain extend. In years past, we did not need to sell out to stop the run. We could play our base 3-4 and teams never had a chance of a running attack. Now, teams can run on us AND throw on us.
      Tomlin: Let's unleash hell and "mop the floor" with the competition.

      Comment

      • steelz09
        Administrator
        • Jan 2008
        • 4675

        #4
        Originally posted by Slapstick
        This D is too dependent upon having Troy and Harrison healthy...

        There are other players who can do different things, but we don't emphasize those players schematically...

        True....but being too dependent on a 31 and 34 y/o is just plain stupid and that has been the case for several years. What is our record without Troy in the lineup again?
        Tomlin: Let's unleash hell and "mop the floor" with the competition.

        Comment

        • lloydroid
          Pro Bowler
          • Aug 2012
          • 2026

          #5
          Originally posted by steelz09
          I disagree to a certain extend. In years past, we did not need to sell out to stop the run. We could play our base 3-4 and teams never had a chance of a running attack. Now, teams can run on us AND throw on us.
          Yea, I was speaking in our history. Today could be a different deal, with us just sucking vs. the rush from age and missing former players. Our D really crumbled down the stretch of games in all of 2009. So, we weren't as old then and still could never defend a lead. There must be a reason.

          Comment

          • NorthCoast
            Legend
            • Sep 2008
            • 26636

            #6
            Originally posted by steelz09
            I disagree to a certain extend. In years past, we did not need to sell out to stop the run. We could play our base 3-4 and teams never had a chance of a running attack. Now, teams can run on us AND throw on us.
            agreed. the loss of A. Smith was the beginning of the end for the run D. Guy pretty much dominated everyone he faced. The Steelers have to bring safety help up to the line on a regular basis now to stop the run. Makes it easy for the offense to show one look, then change based on the safety position. Easy yards....

            Comment

            • lloydroid
              Pro Bowler
              • Aug 2012
              • 2026

              #7
              Originally posted by steelz09
              True....but being too dependent on a 31 and 34 y/o is just plain stupid and that has been the case for several years. What is our record without Troy in the lineup again?
              We are basically a .500 team without TP in the line up. Maybe below it now.

              Comment

              • lloydroid
                Pro Bowler
                • Aug 2012
                • 2026

                #8
                Originally posted by NorthCoast
                agreed. the loss of A. Smith was the beginning of the end for the run D. Guy pretty much dominated everyone he faced. The Steelers have to bring safety help up to the line on a regular basis now to stop the run. Makes it easy for the offense to show one look, then change based on the safety position. Easy yards....
                Also, there is no way Hampton can be as effective as he was in year's past. No way. That is a huge factor as well. It has got to be.

                Comment

                • skyhawk
                  Hall of Famer
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 3732

                  #9
                  I agree!

                  The year that Beady and Gannon torched the Steelers was 2002.

                  Comment

                  • steelz09
                    Administrator
                    • Jan 2008
                    • 4675

                    #10
                    Originally posted by lloydroid
                    Also, there is no way Hampton can be as effective as he was in year's past. No way. That is a huge factor as well. It has got to be.
                    Originally posted by NorthCoast
                    agreed. the loss of A. Smith was the beginning of the end for the run D. Guy pretty much dominated everyone he faced. The Steelers have to bring safety help up to the line on a regular basis now to stop the run. Makes it easy for the offense to show one look, then change based on the safety position. Easy yards....
                    Yup.

                    I understand guys can't play forever and their play declines as they age.

                    The bad news is that our defensive players are continuing to age and we are trying to replace them with inferior players. It's not like we haven't spent high picks on defense. It's that these high picks are not developing and performing at the level their expected. That might work when it's 1 player. You can disguise it. Right now, we are weak at multiple positions.
                    Tomlin: Let's unleash hell and "mop the floor" with the competition.

                    Comment

                    • lloydroid
                      Pro Bowler
                      • Aug 2012
                      • 2026

                      #11
                      Originally posted by steelz09
                      Yup.

                      I understand guys can't play forever and their play declines as they age.

                      The bad news is that our defensive players are continuing to age and we are trying to replace them with inferior players. It's not like we haven't spent high picks on defense. It's that these high picks are not developing and performing at the level their expected. That might work when it's 1 player. You can disguise it. Right now, we are weak at multiple positions.
                      Weak at S sans Troy.
                      Weak at CB. Ike is only solid one and he is getting old.
                      Weak at OLB with 92 out.
                      Weak at DL? Maybe.
                      IDK, I think we are even weak at ILB; Timmons misses tackles all day long.

                      Are things really this bleak? They might be.

                      Comment

                      • papillon
                        Legend
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 11340

                        #12
                        Originally posted by lloydroid
                        We are basically a .500 team without TP in the line up. Maybe below it now.
                        James Harrison is the heart and soul of the defense; Troy is the play maker of the defense (by and large) without one the defense can get by, but will typically need a good effort from the offense to win, without both the offense has no room for error almost every possession needs to turn into points and that's untenable.

                        The defense needs both and they need them for 2 or 3 more years to be competitive and hopefully draft or develop some talent on defense. The other players seem to be playing as if Troy and James are in the game and waiting for them to make a play or cause the quarterback make a bad decision.

                        Pappy
                        sigpic

                        The 2025 Pittsburgh Steeler draft

                        1.21 - Derrick Harmon, DT, Oregon - Nick Emmanwori, S, S. Carolina
                        3.83 - Kaleb Johnson, RB, Iowa - DJ Giddens, RB, Kans St
                        3.123 - Will Howard, QB, OSU
                        4.156 - JJ Pegues, DT, Ole Miss
                        5.185 - Clay Webb, OG, Jack St
                        7.229 - Tyrion Ingram-Dawkins, DT, Georgia

                        "Football is a physical game, well, it used to be anyways" - Mel Blount

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                        • DukieBoy
                          Hall of Famer
                          • May 2008
                          • 3488

                          #13
                          According to Trib articles on-line this morning, our D schemes are very predictable, apparently. After running the same defense for so many years, it has become easy to read and know what the defense is doing. Palmer recognized what the defense would do, audibled to the play for the long TD run, for one example. Apparently, same with blitz packages, very easy to recognize and anticipate.





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                          • Oviedo
                            Legend
                            • May 2008
                            • 23824

                            #14
                            Originally posted by DukieBoy
                            According to Trib articles on-line this morning, our D schemes are very predictable, apparently. After running the same defense for so many years, it has become easy to read and know what the defense is doing. Palmer recognized what the defense would do, audibled to the play for the long TD run, for one example. Apparently, same with blitz packages, very easy to recognize and anticipate.
                            I read that too, however for any of us who watch every game that shouldn't be a surprise. Even sitting in our living rooms we can typically predict who is going to blitz with at least a 80% accuracy for pretty much any game. I'm sure the professionals who study film can do much better.

                            Palmer's statement about the predictability of our blitzes goes a long way to explain why last season we had the lowest sack total in 21 years.
                            Last edited by Oviedo; 09-25-2012, 07:59 AM.
                            "My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"

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                            • phillyesq
                              Legend
                              • May 2008
                              • 7568

                              #15
                              Palmer called 11 audibles on 57 plays -- calling an audible on less than 20% of plays does not indicate that the entire defensive scheme is predictable.

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