Arians vs. LeBeau

[rockonsteel]

A lot people have asked the question of why some of us want BA gone, but are willing to spare DL. I've spent a lot of time reading, posting and thinking about the debates going back and forth regarding whether to blame the offense or the defense for the season failure. I think there's is absolutely a fair share of blame to go around. We won't include ST in this conversation, although we all know they get a nice slice of pie as well. But, people have been calling for Arians' head, myself at the forefront of them. While we do acknowledge the defenses role in the collapse of the team, this season, others refuse to see the offenses role in it. But, the reason people are calling for BA's head and not so much DL, is twofold.

Reason one is track record and resume. DL has a history of fielding top notch, championship caliber defenses, particularly in Pittsburgh, while BA has a history of running pass-happy offenses that don't necessarily produce when it matters most, save for 2008 season, and that's debatable. I'm a member of the "we won the SB in spite of BA" fraternity.

Reason number two, is the defense's problems can be attributed to largely to personnel issues, from injury to loss thru FA to incumbent players performing at levels significantly lower than in the past. Those are not schematic and philosophical problems. In fact those things will expose any possible weaknesses in the best of schemes. You fix that by changing the personnel, not by changing the coordinator. OTOH, the offense's problems were not personnel. They have a ****load of weapons, who were healthy for the most part, most of the season. Many of them had career years. The problems on offense were with philosophy, gameplans, situational football and playcalling. Those things fall squarely on the shoulders of the OC. And that has been his MO. To fix those things, you need a philosophical change. IMO, you usually have to change the person calling the plays to achieve that.


Hope that simplifies it for some of you guys.



Rockon

[Oviedo]

"track record" doesn't get us a single win next season. We don't keep players who can't perform anymore so why keep a coach? Not saying that LeBeau Can't do it, but he has alot to prove IMO next year to regain his reputation as a "genius"

You can't say Lebeau gets a pass because of injuries and personnel issues. Arians has dealt with far more personnel issues than LeBeau over the past three season. The OL itself dwarfs any issues LeBeau has had to deal with. But again, LeBeau gets excuses and Arians gets the lynch mob.

Also, don't underestimate that any personnel issues on the defense are magnified because of choices LeBeau makes with regards to schemes and complexity. It's his job to get the most out of what he has not force them into his predetermined schemes. Round pegs don't fit into square holes. This is why we can't seem to ever get rookies onto the field no mateer how exceptional their talents are, i.e. Troy P. That is a luxury teams can't afford in a salary cap controlled league.

[stlrz d]

Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

(see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?) :HeadBanger

[SteelAbility]

Exactly. The D problems have stemmed from key personnel losses. One of them, Troy, was a !%!^!@#%!#$ candidate for the 08 DPOTY for crying out loud. His replacement was both slow of foot and slow of mind. The other, A. Smith, was an (arguably) top 5 to top 10 run stuffer. His replacement was average at best. A huge chunk of the offensive predictability factor went down the sh*t can with the loss of these guys.

The O problems have primarily stemmed from philosophical issues.

One of these is totally correctable. The other is correctable but only up to a point. When there is a fundamental weakness you can only mask it for so long.

[SteelAbility]

Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

(see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?) :HeadBanger

This is NFL Overreaction Nation where you're only as good as your last fill-in-the-blank.

I find that pretty funny to say the least. :lol:

[Oviedo]

Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

(see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?) :HeadBanger

Hope your right because above all else the Steelers winning it what matters. Hopefully LeBeau has some magic left. My uninformed and ignorant mind just can't figure out what it is when our defense is getting older and our young players can't get on the field.

But let's not kid ourselves what killed us all season was exactly what the Cardinals exposed in the Super Bowl last year when we did have Troy. You saw it last February and then all 2009 and no adjustments, no improvements.

I just have less confidence that Troy coming back solves all the problems. To me would could just fooling ourselves by painting over rotten wood. But we just have to wait and see.

[grotonsteel]

A lot people have asked the question of why some of us want BA gone, but are willing to spare DL. I've spent a lot of time reading, posting and thinking about the debates going back and forth regarding whether to blame the offense or the defense for the season failure. I think there's is absolutely a fair share of blame to go around. We won't include ST in this conversation, although we all know they get a nice slice of pie as well. But, people have been calling for Arians' head, myself at the forefront of them. While we do acknowledge the defenses role in the collapse of the team, this season, others refuse to see the offenses role in it. But, the reason people are calling for BA's head and not so much DL, is twofold.

Reason one is track record and resume. DL has a history of fielding top notch, championship caliber defenses, particularly in Pittsburgh, while BA has a history of running pass-happy offenses that don't necessarily produce when it matters most, save for 2008 season, and that's debatable. I'm a member of the "we won the SB in spite of BA" fraternity.

Reason number two, is the defense's problems can be attributed to largely to personnel issues, from injury to loss thru FA to incumbent players performing at levels significantly lower than in the past. Those are not schematic and philosophical problems. In fact those things will expose any possible weaknesses in the best of schemes. You fix that by changing the personnel, not by changing the coordinator. OTOH, the offense's problems were not personnel. They have a ****load of weapons, who were healthy for the most part, most of the season. Many of them had career years. The problems on offense were with philosophy, gameplans, situational football and playcalling. Those things fall squarely on the shoulders of the OC. And that has been his MO. To fix those things, you need a philosophical change. IMO, you usually have to change the person calling the plays to achieve that.


Hope that simplifies it for some of you guys.

Rockon

My 2 cents on this issue..

Bruce Arians is not great by any means....he is an average O.C IMO but to give Dick Lebeau a free pass this season is ridiculous. NFL will always be what has he done lately...I would say Dick Lebeau has done nothing. People bash BA for unable to adjust...tell me one thing wht adjustment did Dick Lebeau made in Defense this season????

Are you not tired watching 10 yards cushion Defense on 3rd and 3 play?? Steelers play prevent D and get burned all the time.So many times this season players complained they did not get the play. Whose responsibility it is???

People talk about injuries to Troy and Aaron Smith...With due respect to Troy but if your entire defense depends on a SS then i think this Steelers 3-4 D/scheme is a failure.You don't need Troy to get turnovers against Browns/Faiders/Chiefs/Bears. Steelers D made Cutler/Cassell/Brad G look like Joe Montana.I am not saying change to 4-3 because i am not aware what personnel is required for that but if steelers D can't overcome Troy injury then i blame Dick lebeau for not putting players in a position to succeed.
What is the point of these complex schemes when these schemes suck.


Another thing Aaron Smith is close to end of his career. The way Troy plays there is no guarantee that he will be healthy all season long. Dick Lebeau's so called complex schemes do not allow rookies to play. It is coaches responsibility to make playbook simple so that rookies can contribute.Do you think 2010 will be any better unless Steelers make a splash in FA???

And if you are saying players (apart from troy/Lamar and James H) are not capable of making plays then Dick Lebeau get some share of blame since he would have given input to Steelers FO on what kinda players he want.

I think Dick Lebeau's DB requirenment:
Good tackler and good in run support. Ball Hawking ability optional or not required.

No wonder Steelers CB could not get a single turnover in 15 games.

[SteelTorch]

Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

(see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?) :HeadBanger
:Agree

[Oviedo]

A lot people have asked the question of why some of us want BA gone, but are willing to spare DL. I've spent a lot of time reading, posting and thinking about the debates going back and forth regarding whether to blame the offense or the defense for the season failure. I think there's is absolutely a fair share of blame to go around. We won't include ST in this conversation, although we all know they get a nice slice of pie as well. But, people have been calling for Arians' head, myself at the forefront of them. While we do acknowledge the defenses role in the collapse of the team, this season, others refuse to see the offenses role in it. But, the reason people are calling for BA's head and not so much DL, is twofold.

Reason one is track record and resume. DL has a history of fielding top notch, championship caliber defenses, particularly in Pittsburgh, while BA has a history of running pass-happy offenses that don't necessarily produce when it matters most, save for 2008 season, and that's debatable. I'm a member of the "we won the SB in spite of BA" fraternity.

Reason number two, is the defense's problems can be attributed to largely to personnel issues, from injury to loss thru FA to incumbent players performing at levels significantly lower than in the past. Those are not schematic and philosophical problems. In fact those things will expose any possible weaknesses in the best of schemes. You fix that by changing the personnel, not by changing the coordinator. OTOH, the offense's problems were not personnel. They have a ****load of weapons, who were healthy for the most part, most of the season. Many of them had career years. The problems on offense were with philosophy, gameplans, situational football and playcalling. Those things fall squarely on the shoulders of the OC. And that has been his MO. To fix those things, you need a philosophical change. IMO, you usually have to change the person calling the plays to achieve that.


Hope that simplifies it for some of you guys.

Rockon

My 2 cents on this issue..

Bruce Arians is not great by any means....he is an average O.C IMO but to give bad word Lebeau a free pass this season is ridiculous. NFL will always be what has he done lately...I would say bad word Lebeau has done nothing. People bash BA for unable to adjust...tell me one thing wht adjustment did bad word Lebeau made in Defense this season????

Are you not tired watching 10 yards cushion Defense on 3rd and 3 play?? Steelers play prevent D and get burned all the time.So many times this season players complained they did not get the play. Whose responsibility it is???

People talk about injuries to Troy and Aaron Smith...With due respect to Troy but if your entire defense depends on a SS then i think this Steelers 3-4 D/scheme is a failure.You don't need Troy to get turnovers against Browns/Faiders/Chiefs/Bears. Steelers D made Cutler/Cassell/Brad G look like Joe Montana.I am not saying change to 4-3 because i am not aware what personnel is required for that but if steelers D can't overcome Troy injury then i blame bad word lebeau for not putting players in a position to succeed.
What is the point of these complex schemes when these schemes suck.


Another thing Aaron Smith is close to end of his career. The way Troy plays there is no guarantee that he will be healthy all season long. bad word Lebeau's so called complex schemes do not allow rookies to play. It is coaches responsibility to make playbook simple so that rookies can contribute.Do you think 2010 will be any better unless Steelers make a splash in FA???

And if you are saying players (apart from troy/Lamar and James H) are not capable of making plays then bad word Lebeau get some share of blame since he would have given input to Steelers FO on what kinda players he want.

I think bad word Lebeau's DB requirenment:
Good tackler and good in run support. Ball Hawking ability optional or not required.

No wonder Steelers CB could not get a single turnover in 15 games.

Just what I have been saying all along and all valid points that most don't seem to want to rationally address.

Oooops. Got to go. The "Defensive Inquisition" led by the monks from the Order of St LeBeau just spotted me. Got to run fast now!

[cruzer8]

Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

That just doesn't hold water with me.

[Oviedo]

Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

That just doesn't hold water with me.

What do you expect St LeBeau will do differently when he hasn't changed anything in 5 years? I'm just trying to find somebody, anybody who tells me how LeBeau changes and improves the defense beyond Troy and Smith will be back.

[feltdizz]

Ovie is spot on... and funny as hell.

Something is wrong when IKE, Ryan Clark can't get one INT in 15 games. I think getting rid of Kill Switch was a bad move. He may have been undisciplined but that is twice as good as a disciplined yet sluth footed Tyrone Carter.

[grotonsteel]

Exactly. The D problems have stemmed from key personnel losses. One of them, Troy, was a !%!^!@#%!#$ candidate for the 08 DPOTY for crying out loud. His replacement was both slow of foot and slow of mind. The other, A. Smith, was an (arguably) top 5 to top 10 run stuffer. His replacement was average at best. A huge chunk of the offensive predictability factor went down the sh*t can with the loss of these guys.

The O problems have primarily stemmed from philosophical issues.

One of these is totally correctable. The other is correctable but only up to a point. When there is a fundamental weakness you can only mask it for so long.

How about giving Steelers O a better O-line and see what they can do???
Steelers don't have a single player drafted on O-line in Rd1-Rd2.

If D gets a pass because of personnel issue even when they play horrible teams why not Steelers O?????

[cruzer8]

Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

That just doesn't hold water with me.

What do you expect St LeBeau will do differently when he hasn't changed anything in 5 years? I'm just trying to find somebody, anybody who tells me how LeBeau changes and improves the defense beyond Troy and Smith will be back.

You must not be paying very close attention then. He runs a lot of packages that get more LBs and DBs on the field with only one down lineman. He's constantly changing the blitz schemes too. Everything he does is to disguise and confuse.

The only thing I wish he would actually change is the cushion the corners give up on passing downs. I know he has a "bend but don't break, eventually they will make a mistake and we will capitalize" philosophy, but giving up a free 5-7 yards consistently is hard to take if the pressure isn't getting there on time. And actually, there were times this year where I saw Ike right up on the LOS at the snap of the ball.

[grotonsteel]

Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

That just doesn't hold water with me.


No one is saying Dick Lebeau needs to go. But many people here who bash BA for 2009 season give a free pass to Dick Lebeau.

According to them only problem for Steelers is their offense,BA and Big Ben holding the ball too long.

[feltdizz]

Let me clarify I think Ovie is spot on in the critisicm of Lebeau... But he should return. However I think we all get frustrated at the 2 to 3 years it takes to master the D and we witnessed what happens when a vet goes down in the backfield. It makes it frustrating to look at draft day CBs because we know they won't see the field for 2 more years.

Imagine Wallace sitting on the sidelines for 2 years because of the complex scheme.. Ike has stated all the blitzes we have yet to use, the D's playbook being twice as big as the offenses. While it sounds great when the D is rolling, when injuries happen, and in football they will happen... the complexity can become a big problem.

[grotonsteel]

Let me clarify I think Ovie is spot on in the critisicm of Lebeau... But he should return. However I think we all get frustrated at the 2 to 3 years it takes to master the D and we witnessed what happens when a vet goes down in the backfield. It makes it frustrating to look at draft day CBs because we know they won't see the field for 2 more years.

Imagine Wallace sitting on the sidelines for 2 years because of the complex scheme.. Ike has stated all the blitzes we have yet to use, the D's playbook being twice as big as the offenses. While it sounds great when the D is rolling, when injuries happen, and in football they will happen... the complexity can become a big problem.

I am worried about Steelers D in 2010 even when Troy returns.

These complex schemes need to go out. Make it simple for rookies to contribute. Steelers need rookies to contribute unless they make a splash in FA.

[feltdizz]

Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

That just doesn't hold water with me.

What do you expect St LeBeau will do differently when he hasn't changed anything in 5 years? I'm just trying to find somebody, anybody who tells me how LeBeau changes and improves the defense beyond Troy and Smith will be back.

You must not be paying very close attention then. He runs a lot of packages that get more LBs and DBs on the field with only one down lineman. He's constantly changing the blitz schemes too. Everything he does is to disguise and confuse.

The only thing I wish he would actually change is the cushion the corners give up on passing downs. I know he has a "bend but don't break, eventually they will make a mistake and we will capitalize" philosophy, but giving up a free 5-7 yards consistently is hard to take if the pressure isn't getting there on time. And actually, there were times this year where I saw Ike right up on the LOS at the snap of the ball.
Unfortunately we disguised and confused ourselves this year. The number of wide open WR's this year was incredible.

[Oviedo]

Let me clarify I think Ovie is spot on in the critisicm of Lebeau... But he should return. However I think we all get frustrated at the 2 to 3 years it takes to master the D and we witnessed what happens when a vet goes down in the backfield. It makes it frustrating to look at draft day CBs because we know they won't see the field for 2 more years.

Imagine Wallace sitting on the sidelines for 2 years because of the complex scheme.. Ike has stated all the blitzes we have yet to use, the D's playbook being twice as big as the offenses. While it sounds great when the D is rolling, when injuries happen, and in football they will happen... the complexity can become a big problem.

Beware the "Defensive Inquisition!" The monks of the order of St LeBeau will be pursuing you too if you continue to speak such heretical pontifications. Do you prefer the rack, drawn and quartered or just being burnt at the stake?

Save yourself and do your pennance now. Say the following 10 times: "We are a 3-4 defense and thou shalt not question." "We shalt not change because the past hath been good" "All players shall conform or be cast out" "All fans shalt never question St LeBeau"

[SteelAbility]

Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

(see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?) :HeadBanger

Hope your right because above all else the Steelers winning it what matters. Hopefully LeBeau has some magic left. My uninformed and ignorant mind just can't figure out what it is when our defense is getting older and our young players can't get on the field.

But let's not kid ourselves what killed us all season was exactly what the Cardinals exposed in the Super Bowl last year when we did have Troy. You saw it last February and then all 2009 and no adjustments, no improvements.

I just have less confidence that Troy coming back solves all the problems. To me would could just fooling ourselves by painting over rotten wood. But we just have to wait and see.

I'm thinking that what happened in the 4thQ was the result of a D that put out big time for 3 quarters and was tired in the 4th. We weren't going up against an average O in the SB. That was a super high powered O with red hot Fitzgerald averaging 35+ in their 3 playoff games. We held them to 23.

Also on the long TD to Fitzgerald we really got "caught with our pants down" as the FS was some 35 yards off the ball on the opposite side of where the pass was thrown. That was more surprised than exposed.

Also, I shudder to think what the final score would have been with Ty Carter starting for Troy and William Gay in for McFadden.

[feltdizz]

Let me clarify I think Ovie is spot on in the critisicm of Lebeau... But he should return. However I think we all get frustrated at the 2 to 3 years it takes to master the D and we witnessed what happens when a vet goes down in the backfield. It makes it frustrating to look at draft day CBs because we know they won't see the field for 2 more years.

Imagine Wallace sitting on the sidelines for 2 years because of the complex scheme.. Ike has stated all the blitzes we have yet to use, the D's playbook being twice as big as the offenses. While it sounds great when the D is rolling, when injuries happen, and in football they will happen... the complexity can become a big problem.

I am worried about Steelers D in 2010 even when Troy returns.

These complex schemes need to go out. Make it simple for rookies to contribute. Steelers need rookies to contribute unless they make a splash in FA.

I don't don't know... My respect for Lebeau leads me believe Gay was like most first year DB's in our scheme, dazed and confused and always a step behind. Maybe I'm a dreamer though....

[feltdizz]

Let me clarify I think Ovie is spot on in the critisicm of Lebeau... But he should return. However I think we all get frustrated at the 2 to 3 years it takes to master the D and we witnessed what happens when a vet goes down in the backfield. It makes it frustrating to look at draft day CBs because we know they won't see the field for 2 more years.

Imagine Wallace sitting on the sidelines for 2 years because of the complex scheme.. Ike has stated all the blitzes we have yet to use, the D's playbook being twice as big as the offenses. While it sounds great when the D is rolling, when injuries happen, and in football they will happen... the complexity can become a big problem.

Beware the "Defensive Inquisition!" The monks of the order of St LeBeau will be pursuing you too if you continue to speak such heretical pontifications. Do you prefer the rack, drawn and quartered or just being burnt at the stake?

Save yourself and do your pennance now. Say the following 10 times: "We are a 3-4 defense and thou shalt not question." "We shalt not change because the past hath been good" "All players shall conform or be cast out" "All fans shalt never question St LeBeau"

I have been baptized in lake Minnatonga like in Purple Rain... I skipped rocks and ate fish from the River Ohio as a youth... I wallked the windy north side for 3 hours before realizing there was a bus strike. I also endured the Steelers in the 80's.

I am legend.

[Oviedo]

Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

(see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?) :HeadBanger

Hope your right because above all else the Steelers winning it what matters. Hopefully LeBeau has some magic left. My uninformed and ignorant mind just can't figure out what it is when our defense is getting older and our young players can't get on the field.

But let's not kid ourselves what killed us all season was exactly what the Cardinals exposed in the Super Bowl last year when we did have Troy. You saw it last February and then all 2009 and no adjustments, no improvements.

I just have less confidence that Troy coming back solves all the problems. To me would could just fooling ourselves by painting over rotten wood. But we just have to wait and see.

I'm thinking that what happened in the 4thQ was the result of a D that put out big time for 3 quarters and was tired in the 4th. We weren't going up against an average O in the SB. That was a super high powered O with red hot Fitzgerald averaging 35+ in their 3 playoff games. We held them to 23.

Also on the long TD to Fitzgerald we really got "caught with our pants down" as the FS was some 35 yards off the ball on the opposite side of where the pass was thrown. That was more surprised than exposed.

Also, I shudder to think what the final score would have been with Ty Carter starting for Troy and William Gay in for McFadden.

Of course it is Bruce Arians fault.

[SteelAbility]

Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

(see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?) :HeadBanger

Hope your right because above all else the Steelers winning it what matters. Hopefully LeBeau has some magic left. My uninformed and ignorant mind just can't figure out what it is when our defense is getting older and our young players can't get on the field.

But let's not kid ourselves what killed us all season was exactly what the Cardinals exposed in the Super Bowl last year when we did have Troy. You saw it last February and then all 2009 and no adjustments, no improvements.

I just have less confidence that Troy coming back solves all the problems. To me would could just fooling ourselves by painting over rotten wood. But we just have to wait and see.

I'm thinking that what happened in the 4thQ was the result of a D that put out big time for 3 quarters and was tired in the 4th. We weren't going up against an average O in the SB. That was a super high powered O with red hot Fitzgerald averaging 35+ in their 3 playoff games. We held them to 23.

Also on the long TD to Fitzgerald we really got "caught with our pants down" as the FS was some 35 yards off the ball on the opposite side of where the pass was thrown. That was more surprised than exposed.

Also, I shudder to think what the final score would have been with Ty Carter starting for Troy and William Gay in for McFadden.

Of course it is Bruce Arians fault.

Well, I don't see anything about Bruce Arians in there. :P

I do fault Arians for failure to get a TD on the opening drive with 1st AND GOAL FROM THE F^!$%$!@#$!#ing 1. All you need is 9 inches per play ... 9 INCHES PER PLAY. Instead we got cute with handoffs giving the D a chance to get in the backfield when all we needed was sneak, sneak, sneak, score.

[Steeler Mafia]

Are we really still talking about this? :wft

[feltdizz]

Are we really still talking about this? :wft

It's big bidness...

[feltdizz]

In other news... or in Cheater news.. I just heard a pod cast where a guy ask:

How can we think the Pats* D will turn around if Seau is your LB?

I thought it was funny...

[NorthCoast]

Fix the turnover ratio and we will be in the playoffs once again.

We were 27th in takeaways per game and 21st in turnover margin/game (-0.2) vs last season when we were 4th (1.4/game) and 5th (+0.5). And it wasn't because the offense gave it away more this season (almost the same as last on giveaways), it was on the D.

[SteelTorch]

Fix the turnover ratio and we will be in the playoffs once again.

We were 27th in takeaways per game and 21st in turnover margin/game (-0.2) vs last season when we were 4th (1.4/game) and 5th (+0.5). And it wasn't because the offense gave it away more this season (almost the same as last on giveaways), it was on the D.
There was more to it than that. We were terrible on preventing third down conversions - 28th in the league, in fact. I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned that our pass defense was ranked 16th this season as opposed to 1st from '08.

[NorthCoast]

Fix the turnover ratio and we will be in the playoffs once again.

We were 27th in takeaways per game and 21st in turnover margin/game (-0.2) vs last season when we were 4th (1.4/game) and 5th (+0.5). And it wasn't because the offense gave it away more this season (almost the same as last on giveaways), it was on the D.
There was more to it than that. We were terrible on preventing third down conversions - 28th in the league, in fact. I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned that our pass defense was ranked 16th this season as opposed to 1st from '08.

I agree. I am not expecting us to be the D we were in '08 but if we are 1/2 that good, I think we will be fine.

[feltdizz]

Fix the turnover ratio and we will be in the playoffs once again.

We were 27th in takeaways per game and 21st in turnover margin/game (-0.2) vs last season when we were 4th (1.4/game) and 5th (+0.5). And it wasn't because the offense gave it away more this season (almost the same as last on giveaways), it was on the D.
There was more to it than that. We were terrible on preventing third down conversions - 28th in the league, in fact. I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned that our pass defense was ranked 16th this season as opposed to 1st from '08.
People spoke on the pass defense slipping, especially in the 4th quarter, over and over and over again....

but I think some were so focused on another guy to blame.... talking about pass defense was just :Blah :Blah :Blah

[SteelAbility]

Fix the turnover ratio and we will be in the playoffs once again.

We were 27th in takeaways per game and 21st in turnover margin/game (-0.2) vs last season when we were 4th (1.4/game) and 5th (+0.5). And it wasn't because the offense gave it away more this season (almost the same as last on giveaways), it was on the D.
There was more to it than that. We were terrible on preventing third down conversions - 28th in the league, in fact. I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned that our pass defense was ranked 16th this season as opposed to 1st from '08.
People spoke on the pass defense slipping, especially in the 4th quarter, over and over and over again....

but I think some were so focused on another guy to blame.... talking about pass defense was just :Blah :Blah :Blah

Yeah, our offensive 3rd down play was totally rocking this year. :roll:

Another poster pointed out that Troy, in his limited playing time, had 3 INTs ... as much as the CBs had ALL season (3, in the last game of the season). Yeah, the loss of Troy is no excuse. After all cake can taste just as good with Splenda as it does with Sugar. :roll:

Someone's gotta keep the flame ware alive. Flame and blame. That's how it works. :P :wink:

[feltdizz]

Fix the turnover ratio and we will be in the playoffs once again.

We were 27th in takeaways per game and 21st in turnover margin/game (-0.2) vs last season when we were 4th (1.4/game) and 5th (+0.5). And it wasn't because the offense gave it away more this season (almost the same as last on giveaways), it was on the D.
There was more to it than that. We were terrible on preventing third down conversions - 28th in the league, in fact. I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned that our pass defense was ranked 16th this season as opposed to 1st from '08.
People spoke on the pass defense slipping, especially in the 4th quarter, over and over and over again....

but I think some were so focused on another guy to blame.... talking about pass defense was just :Blah :Blah :Blah

Yeah, our offensive 3rd down play was totally rocking this year. :roll:

Another poster pointed out that Troy, in his limited playing time, had 3 INTs ... as much as the CBs had ALL season (3, in the last game of the season). Yeah, the loss of Troy is no excuse. After all cake can taste just as good with Splenda as it does with Sugar. :roll:

Someone's gotta keep the flame ware alive. Flame and blame. That's how it works. :P :wink:

It's too cold to keep playing tennis.. :wink:

[RuthlessBurgher]

Are we really still talking about this? :wft

Shame on me for even opening a thread titled "Arians vs. LeBeau." Before I even clicked on it, I knew it was going to be the same arguments from the same people that I have read in 47 other threads so far, but my stupid @$$ clicked on it anyway. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. :HeadBanger

[SteelAbility]

Are we really still talking about this? :wft

Shame on me for even opening a thread titled "Arians vs. LeBeau." Before I even clicked on it, I knew it was going to be the same arguments from the same people that I have read in 47 other threads so far, but my stupid @$$ clicked on it anyway. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. :HeadBanger

I think I'll start a "Darth Arians/Master LeBeau" post. Arians' will be photoshopped to appear as a hologram with a hoodie, holding a light saber, while Lebeau will appear hunched over and very wise looking, holding a light saber , with a thought bubble that says "Many schemes, we must make." :P

[RuthlessBurgher]

Are we really still talking about this? :wft

Shame on me for even opening a thread titled "Arians vs. LeBeau." Before I even clicked on it, I knew it was going to be the same arguments from the same people that I have read in 47 other threads so far, but my stupid @$$ clicked on it anyway. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. :HeadBanger

I think I'll start a "Darth Arians/Master LeBeau" post. Arians' will be photoshopped to appear as a hologram with a hoodie, holding a light saber, while Lebeau will appear hunched over and very wise looking, holding a light saber , with a thought bubble that says "Many schemes, we must make." :P

And I'll click on that thread too (if only to see a green LeBeau with pointy ears). :mrgreen:

[Oviedo]

Are we really still talking about this? :wft

Shame on me for even opening a thread titled "Arians vs. LeBeau." Before I even clicked on it, I knew it was going to be the same arguments from the same people that I have read in 47 other threads so far, but my stupid @$$ clicked on it anyway. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. :HeadBanger

Shame on you.

Seriously though, what did you expect the responses would be? You just created a free fire zone for the folks who posted the other 252 hate Arians threads.

[feltdizz]

In the other threads someone could blame the OC for the DC or DC for the OC..

yet when you responded to it they claimed you weren't keeping it focused on the OC or DC...

if that makes sense.. LOL!

[Oviedo]

In the other threads someone could blame the OC for the DC or DC for the OC..

yet when you responded to it they claimed you weren't keeping it focused on the OC or DC...

if that makes sense.. LOL!

That's why we should mostly be talking about the draft and the potential college players we can get. Talking about coordinators and coaches is a waste of time.

[feltdizz]

In the other threads someone could blame the OC for the DC or DC for the OC..

yet when you responded to it they claimed you weren't keeping it focused on the OC or DC...

if that makes sense.. LOL!

That's why we should mostly be talking about the draft and the potential college players we can get. Talking about coordinators and coaches is a waste of time.
Talking about the draft is a waste of time too... no one listens to us. *sarcasm*

[SteelTorch]

Fix the turnover ratio and we will be in the playoffs once again.

We were 27th in takeaways per game and 21st in turnover margin/game (-0.2) vs last season when we were 4th (1.4/game) and 5th (+0.5). And it wasn't because the offense gave it away more this season (almost the same as last on giveaways), it was on the D.
There was more to it than that. We were terrible on preventing third down conversions - 28th in the league, in fact. I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned that our pass defense was ranked 16th this season as opposed to 1st from '08.
People spoke on the pass defense slipping, especially in the 4th quarter, over and over and over again....

but I think some were so focused on another guy to blame.... talking about pass defense was just :Blah :Blah :Blah
Why don't you just shut the eff up already? :roll: Nobody here is claiming all of our failures were Bruce Arians' fault, and neither did I. You just seem to think that criticizing Arians automatically means ignoring our other weaknesses. On the other hand, just because we had other weaknesses doesn't mean Arians was free from blame either. Grow up, you big baby. :Binky

[SteelAbility]

Are we really still talking about this? :wft

Shame on me for even opening a thread titled "Arians vs. LeBeau." Before I even clicked on it, I knew it was going to be the same arguments from the same people that I have read in 47 other threads so far, but my stupid @$$ clicked on it anyway. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. :HeadBanger

I think I'll start a "Darth Arians/Master LeBeau" post. Arians' will be photoshopped to appear as a hologram with a hoodie, holding a light saber, while Lebeau will appear hunched over and very wise looking, holding a light saber , with a thought bubble that says "Many schemes, we must make." :P

And I'll click on that thread too (if only to see a green LeBeau with pointy ears). :mrgreen:

Mmmmmmmmm. Much flaming a pathway to the Dark Side is. :mrgreen: