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Thread: Arians vs. LeBeau

  1. #1

    Arians vs. LeBeau

    A lot people have asked the question of why some of us want BA gone, but are willing to spare DL. I've spent a lot of time reading, posting and thinking about the debates going back and forth regarding whether to blame the offense or the defense for the season failure. I think there's is absolutely a fair share of blame to go around. We won't include ST in this conversation, although we all know they get a nice slice of pie as well. But, people have been calling for Arians' head, myself at the forefront of them. While we do acknowledge the defenses role in the collapse of the team, this season, others refuse to see the offenses role in it. But, the reason people are calling for BA's head and not so much DL, is twofold.

    Reason one is track record and resume. DL has a history of fielding top notch, championship caliber defenses, particularly in Pittsburgh, while BA has a history of running pass-happy offenses that don't necessarily produce when it matters most, save for 2008 season, and that's debatable. I'm a member of the "we won the SB in spite of BA" fraternity.

    Reason number two, is the defense's problems can be attributed to largely to personnel issues, from injury to loss thru FA to incumbent players performing at levels significantly lower than in the past. Those are not schematic and philosophical problems. In fact those things will expose any possible weaknesses in the best of schemes. You fix that by changing the personnel, not by changing the coordinator. OTOH, the offense's problems were not personnel. They have a ****load of weapons, who were healthy for the most part, most of the season. Many of them had career years. The problems on offense were with philosophy, gameplans, situational football and playcalling. Those things fall squarely on the shoulders of the OC. And that has been his MO. To fix those things, you need a philosophical change. IMO, you usually have to change the person calling the plays to achieve that.


    Hope that simplifies it for some of you guys.



    Rockon

  2. #2
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    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    "track record" doesn't get us a single win next season. We don't keep players who can't perform anymore so why keep a coach? Not saying that LeBeau Can't do it, but he has alot to prove IMO next year to regain his reputation as a "genius"

    You can't say Lebeau gets a pass because of injuries and personnel issues. Arians has dealt with far more personnel issues than LeBeau over the past three season. The OL itself dwarfs any issues LeBeau has had to deal with. But again, LeBeau gets excuses and Arians gets the lynch mob.

    Also, don't underestimate that any personnel issues on the defense are magnified because of choices LeBeau makes with regards to schemes and complexity. It's his job to get the most out of what he has not force them into his predetermined schemes. Round pegs don't fit into square holes. This is why we can't seem to ever get rookies onto the field no mateer how exceptional their talents are, i.e. Troy P. That is a luxury teams can't afford in a salary cap controlled league.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  3. #3
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    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

    We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

    (see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?)

  4. #4
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    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    Exactly. The D problems have stemmed from key personnel losses. One of them, Troy, was a !%!^!@#%!#$ candidate for the 08 DPOTY for crying out loud. His replacement was both slow of foot and slow of mind. The other, A. Smith, was an (arguably) top 5 to top 10 run stuffer. His replacement was average at best. A huge chunk of the offensive predictability factor went down the sh*t can with the loss of these guys.

    The O problems have primarily stemmed from philosophical issues.

    One of these is totally correctable. The other is correctable but only up to a point. When there is a fundamental weakness you can only mask it for so long.

  5. #5
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    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    Quote Originally Posted by stlrz d
    Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

    We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

    (see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?)
    This is NFL Overreaction Nation where you're only as good as your last fill-in-the-blank.

    I find that pretty funny to say the least.

  6. #6
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    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    Quote Originally Posted by stlrz d
    Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

    We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

    (see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?)
    Hope your right because above all else the Steelers winning it what matters. Hopefully LeBeau has some magic left. My uninformed and ignorant mind just can't figure out what it is when our defense is getting older and our young players can't get on the field.

    But let's not kid ourselves what killed us all season was exactly what the Cardinals exposed in the Super Bowl last year when we did have Troy. You saw it last February and then all 2009 and no adjustments, no improvements.

    I just have less confidence that Troy coming back solves all the problems. To me would could just fooling ourselves by painting over rotten wood. But we just have to wait and see.
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  7. #7
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    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    Quote Originally Posted by rockonsteel
    A lot people have asked the question of why some of us want BA gone, but are willing to spare DL. I've spent a lot of time reading, posting and thinking about the debates going back and forth regarding whether to blame the offense or the defense for the season failure. I think there's is absolutely a fair share of blame to go around. We won't include ST in this conversation, although we all know they get a nice slice of pie as well. But, people have been calling for Arians' head, myself at the forefront of them. While we do acknowledge the defenses role in the collapse of the team, this season, others refuse to see the offenses role in it. But, the reason people are calling for BA's head and not so much DL, is twofold.

    Reason one is track record and resume. DL has a history of fielding top notch, championship caliber defenses, particularly in Pittsburgh, while BA has a history of running pass-happy offenses that don't necessarily produce when it matters most, save for 2008 season, and that's debatable. I'm a member of the "we won the SB in spite of BA" fraternity.

    Reason number two, is the defense's problems can be attributed to largely to personnel issues, from injury to loss thru FA to incumbent players performing at levels significantly lower than in the past. Those are not schematic and philosophical problems. In fact those things will expose any possible weaknesses in the best of schemes. You fix that by changing the personnel, not by changing the coordinator. OTOH, the offense's problems were not personnel. They have a ****load of weapons, who were healthy for the most part, most of the season. Many of them had career years. The problems on offense were with philosophy, gameplans, situational football and playcalling. Those things fall squarely on the shoulders of the OC. And that has been his MO. To fix those things, you need a philosophical change. IMO, you usually have to change the person calling the plays to achieve that.


    Hope that simplifies it for some of you guys.

    Rockon
    My 2 cents on this issue..

    Bruce Arians is not great by any means....he is an average O.C IMO but to give Dick Lebeau a free pass this season is ridiculous. NFL will always be what has he done lately...I would say Dick Lebeau has done nothing. People bash BA for unable to adjust...tell me one thing wht adjustment did Dick Lebeau made in Defense this season????

    Are you not tired watching 10 yards cushion Defense on 3rd and 3 play?? Steelers play prevent D and get burned all the time.So many times this season players complained they did not get the play. Whose responsibility it is???

    People talk about injuries to Troy and Aaron Smith...With due respect to Troy but if your entire defense depends on a SS then i think this Steelers 3-4 D/scheme is a failure.You don't need Troy to get turnovers against Browns/Faiders/Chiefs/Bears. Steelers D made Cutler/Cassell/Brad G look like Joe Montana.I am not saying change to 4-3 because i am not aware what personnel is required for that but if steelers D can't overcome Troy injury then i blame Dick lebeau for not putting players in a position to succeed.
    What is the point of these complex schemes when these schemes suck.


    Another thing Aaron Smith is close to end of his career. The way Troy plays there is no guarantee that he will be healthy all season long. Dick Lebeau's so called complex schemes do not allow rookies to play. It is coaches responsibility to make playbook simple so that rookies can contribute.Do you think 2010 will be any better unless Steelers make a splash in FA???

    And if you are saying players (apart from troy/Lamar and James H) are not capable of making plays then Dick Lebeau get some share of blame since he would have given input to Steelers FO on what kinda players he want.

    I think Dick Lebeau's DB requirenment:
    Good tackler and good in run support. Ball Hawking ability optional or not required.

    No wonder Steelers CB could not get a single turnover in 15 games.
    Steelers Draft
    Rd 1: Mike Evans - WR
    Rd 2: Kyle Van Noy - ILB/OLB
    Rd 3c: Philip Gaines - CB
    Rd 4: Taylor Hart - DE
    Rd 5: Justin Ellis - DT
    Rd 5c:Xavier Grimble -TE

  8. #8
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    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    Quote Originally Posted by stlrz d
    Ovie, he had one bad season for Christ's sake.

    We all know you have a big stiffy for the 4-3 and can't wait for LeBeau to hit the bricks so someone else will put in a 4-3...but he's had ONE bad season....

    (see what happens when a story is posted about the Raiders targeting Arians...and it turns out to be from bleacher report?)

  9. #9
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    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    Quote Originally Posted by grotonsteel
    Quote Originally Posted by rockonsteel
    A lot people have asked the question of why some of us want BA gone, but are willing to spare DL. I've spent a lot of time reading, posting and thinking about the debates going back and forth regarding whether to blame the offense or the defense for the season failure. I think there's is absolutely a fair share of blame to go around. We won't include ST in this conversation, although we all know they get a nice slice of pie as well. But, people have been calling for Arians' head, myself at the forefront of them. While we do acknowledge the defenses role in the collapse of the team, this season, others refuse to see the offenses role in it. But, the reason people are calling for BA's head and not so much DL, is twofold.

    Reason one is track record and resume. DL has a history of fielding top notch, championship caliber defenses, particularly in Pittsburgh, while BA has a history of running pass-happy offenses that don't necessarily produce when it matters most, save for 2008 season, and that's debatable. I'm a member of the "we won the SB in spite of BA" fraternity.

    Reason number two, is the defense's problems can be attributed to largely to personnel issues, from injury to loss thru FA to incumbent players performing at levels significantly lower than in the past. Those are not schematic and philosophical problems. In fact those things will expose any possible weaknesses in the best of schemes. You fix that by changing the personnel, not by changing the coordinator. OTOH, the offense's problems were not personnel. They have a ****load of weapons, who were healthy for the most part, most of the season. Many of them had career years. The problems on offense were with philosophy, gameplans, situational football and playcalling. Those things fall squarely on the shoulders of the OC. And that has been his MO. To fix those things, you need a philosophical change. IMO, you usually have to change the person calling the plays to achieve that.


    Hope that simplifies it for some of you guys.

    Rockon
    My 2 cents on this issue..

    Bruce Arians is not great by any means....he is an average O.C IMO but to give bad word Lebeau a free pass this season is ridiculous. NFL will always be what has he done lately...I would say bad word Lebeau has done nothing. People bash BA for unable to adjust...tell me one thing wht adjustment did bad word Lebeau made in Defense this season????

    Are you not tired watching 10 yards cushion Defense on 3rd and 3 play?? Steelers play prevent D and get burned all the time.So many times this season players complained they did not get the play. Whose responsibility it is???

    People talk about injuries to Troy and Aaron Smith...With due respect to Troy but if your entire defense depends on a SS then i think this Steelers 3-4 D/scheme is a failure.You don't need Troy to get turnovers against Browns/Faiders/Chiefs/Bears. Steelers D made Cutler/Cassell/Brad G look like Joe Montana.I am not saying change to 4-3 because i am not aware what personnel is required for that but if steelers D can't overcome Troy injury then i blame bad word lebeau for not putting players in a position to succeed.
    What is the point of these complex schemes when these schemes suck.


    Another thing Aaron Smith is close to end of his career. The way Troy plays there is no guarantee that he will be healthy all season long. bad word Lebeau's so called complex schemes do not allow rookies to play. It is coaches responsibility to make playbook simple so that rookies can contribute.Do you think 2010 will be any better unless Steelers make a splash in FA???

    And if you are saying players (apart from troy/Lamar and James H) are not capable of making plays then bad word Lebeau get some share of blame since he would have given input to Steelers FO on what kinda players he want.

    I think bad word Lebeau's DB requirenment:
    Good tackler and good in run support. Ball Hawking ability optional or not required.

    No wonder Steelers CB could not get a single turnover in 15 games.
    Just what I have been saying all along and all valid points that most don't seem to want to rationally address.

    Oooops. Got to go. The "Defensive Inquisition" led by the monks from the Order of St LeBeau just spotted me. Got to run fast now!
    Playing Fantasy Football does not qualify you to be the in the front office or on the coaching staff of the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are professionals and you are not!

  10. #10

    Re: Arians vs. LeBeau

    Who exactly is giving the D a pass?

    They have a stake in the blame as well. What I see is people saying that LeBeau had one bad season. And other people saying he should be gone after one bad season.

    That just doesn't hold water with me.

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