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Thread: Why fans don't like this draft.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    You were commenting about what the screen shot says.

    They bin the results by category and then bin the players based on their relative position at different drills. Then they color code them. Notice how some are green (all of Humphrey's, most of Green's). Some are yellow (Green's agility). Some are Red (Green's size).

    They also give a ranking for each of the 4 metrics (Size / Explosion / Speed / Agility).

    Humphries scores in those categories: Great / Elite / Great / Great
    Green's scores in those categories: Very Poor / Elite / Elite / Good

    Looks like you are looking more at the raw numbers and I'm looking more at the coloring and binning they do. From this I think it's probably something like:

    Size: Humphrey >>>> Green
    Explosion: Humphrey ~ Green
    Speed: Humphrey < Green
    Agility: Humphrey >> Green

    So they weren't "the same" for Speed. Although the colors seem to imply that the difference is less for speed than agility.

    And they also give an OVERALL GRADE. And 10 > 9.23 (although both scores are high which is what I said in my post). And if they neglected size, it looks to me like they'd have about the same grade with Green being somewhat faster and Humphrey being more agile (despite being bigger).

    Your argument seemed to be that Green was a significantly better athlete than Humphrey. The actual data suggests otherwise.

    Even if you drop out the size (which probably matters for OL), they are probably about equal. With Humphry better in agility and Green faster in the 40. I think one of those characteristics is more important for linemen, and it's not 40 time.



    As above, I think your argument was something like (1) "Green is more athletic than Humphrey", and that (2) "The RAS supports that argument."

    The reason it stood out right away is that I remembered hearing that Humphrey got a 10 on the relative athletic score (which measures athleticism). And that 10 is the best score possible. That's why I posted these images.

    So, your argument seems to be incorrect. But they are probably fairly comparable which is something I didn't know right when the pick was made (I think I saw NorthCoast post the RAS for Green the next day).

    I am not arguing that Humphrey is a better athlete. Just that he's not a worse athlete.

    Also, if we're establishing facts: Humphrey played C for 3 years in the NCAA. Green played for 4 games. That's the main point I was making when saying "Green has more risk attached to him than Humphrey did".



    Size is usually inversely proportional to speed and agility. I can tell you from experience that eating chicken nuggets tends to decrease speed and agility (but increases at least one kind of explosiveness <insert poop emoji>).

    My guess is that Big Dan's speed and agility scores aren't what Humphrey's and Green's are. I also guess that you know that this argument is ridiculous.

    You're the one arguing that one of these guys is significantly more athletic than the other. I said that's not true and the Humphrey is graded as being slightly more athletic (despite Green being very athletic too).

    I certainly understand that size isn't everything. But I also think that Green will be the shortest C in the league if he becomes a starter. Maybe it doesn't matter much when you're talking about 0.5". But maybe it does if no one else makes it.

    Or maybe it's a real detriment, but Green has other factors that allow him to overcome the disadvantage. But it's hard to say too much about that because he's only played 4 games at the position in college.

    That doesn't mean that he'll fail. But I think it certainly means that he's got more risk attached to him than a 3 year starter that was consistently graded as the #2 C in the draft (or sometimes #1* because of Dickerson's injury).



    I certainly hope that you are correct here. It is true that I hadn't heard much and maybe not anything about Green. I imagine that's true for lots of us (had you heard about him as a C in the NFL before we picked him that way?).

    So I think it's natural to see the both responses we're getting to this pick. And I think both are probably based on lies we're telling ourselves.

    Option (1): I never heard of this guy and I wanted Humphrey in the 2nd or Meinerz in the 3rd. Because I never heard / though about this guy he's going to be bad.

    You are correct that I probably fall more into this camp and that the thinking isn't right.

    Option (2): The Steelers picked this guy and they have more information than me and most draft prognosticators so they must be right.

    I think there are people here that fall in this camp and they're wrong too. I think they would be closer to being right if the argument was Green vs. Meinerz.

    As always, the only real answer with the draft is "we have to wait and see". But we tend to want answers now. I don't see how anyone can think there is less risk with Green over Humphrey though.
    going to be lazy and not chunk up the response

    yes, i was looking at the ACTUAL performance in those categories... I struggle with rating where one player out-performs in 5 of 8 categories, but 2 more categories (height and weigh) are factored in and makes the other guy "more athletic". Especially when weighing more is a plus... look at that category - that's seriously weird, you have to admit. Think about it's actually saying that if Green packed on a few pounds, he'd be a better prospect - because his 40, 20, and 10 wouldn't suffer much. That he, too could be a statistical 10.0... And by that, my argument isn't ridiculous - it's actually a pretty good example of the flaws in the grading system - which makes it brilliant, if ya ask me. LMAO

    Don't get me wrong, analytics SHOULD play a role. But, you can't blindly look at those numbers because like any statistics, they can be manipulated. Otherwise, we'd have a league full of Tony Mandarich's. Instead, those numbers should point you in a general direction, but you gotta WATCH the guy to see if the same measurements = Hines Ward or Markus Wheaton

    Now, if you're going to put words in my mouth, I'll flip it and say that YOU said Creed was significantly more athletic than Green. I didn't say *significantly*. What i did say was that the difference was enough that Green was clearly a better fit.

    Like i said, length absolutely is a factor of how you'll play the position, but even that isn't everything (See: Paxton Lynch, Brock Osweiler). But, where we clearly disagree is weight as a factor of athleticism (Aaron Donald and his 300 lbs aint the same as everyone else's 300 lbs). Hell, i'd rather see body fat might make more sense. Otherwise, if i run, cut, jump, catch, block, tackle better, well, then I'm better. And it doesn't matter if I'm 305 or 350...

    Having said all of that, we're both splitting hairs here. (I dont think it was this thread) but, i've said that I would have been ok with Creed as the pick simply because 0 sacks as a pass blocker is a phenomenal thing. But, i watched his tape and he simply stalemates, whether in the run game or pass game. It's fine in the pass game because you're trying to keep him away from the QB. In the run game, you're kinda leaving the LOS clogged if you're not moving guys.
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    3. Kelvin Joseph, CB, Kentucky

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel Buchsbaum View Post
    Who are you referring too? Which posters? You know that Creed would have been a busted pick, but give Green a maybe. That;s rich. Creed proved to be a house of a blocker at the senior bowl and in clips. He worked out unusually well at his pro day showing speed and leaping ability people didn't think he had, so here goes your agility theory. If you like stats he didn't give up a sack last season, meanwhile others questioned green as a Pass blocker. I think Green is lacking in height, weight and has short arms, a not so attractive tripple and I'm right. Better than what we have, sure. A long term answer, I think not.

    If you want a real powerhouse who can move, Meinerz should have been the pick.

    https://www.si.com/college/oklahoma/football/creed-humphreys-monster-pro-day-performance-was-like-watching-frankenstien
    you realize his speed and leaping ability were not as good as Greens, right?

    .... carry on.
    2013 MNF Executive Champion!

    Najee Harris, YASS!!
    2021 Day2 Mock
    2. Landon Dickerson, C, Alabama
    3. Kelvin Joseph, CB, Kentucky

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJ-STEELER View Post
    so you don't think its an important position? cool
    TEs are a dime a dozen. The elite guys are absolute difference makers (Kelce, Kittle, Waller, etc). Does Freir compare to those guys? I don't think so. So unless you think he can be a top 5-10 TE in the league, you don't spend that 2nd round pick on him. Better off going with plug and play guys like Ebron, Hunter Henry, Austin Hooper, etc

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrapin View Post
    TEs are a dime a dozen. The elite guys are absolute difference makers (Kelce, Kittle, Waller, etc). Does Freir compare to those guys? I don't think so. So unless you think he can be a top 5-10 TE in the league, you don't spend that 2nd round pick on him. Better off going with plug and play guys like Ebron, Hunter Henry, Austin Hooper, etc
    why doesn't he "compare" to those guys? what are you basing that on?

    what exactly were kelce, kittle and waller coming out of college? a 3rd, a 5th and a 6th round draft choice?

    his measurables are actually very similar.
    height, weight, arm size (fry half inch shorter), hands (slightly bigger then kecle and kittle) speed (less then .1 slower then kelce)

    if those 3 are the standard to what teams want from their TEs , the steelers did a pretty good job in drafting someone who looks (physically) like a carbon copy....and at pick 55 overall

    not top 10 overall (like ebron) or 35th overall like henry.
    the high second round (maybe the first ) is where a lot of draft pundits thought fry should have gone.
    its a steal they were able to get him at #55. that was great value while addressing a need

  5. #55
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    here's kelce's draft tape as a senior vs. fry tape in this thread as a juinor

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerOfDeVille View Post
    going to be lazy and not chunk up the response

    yes, i was looking at the ACTUAL performance in those categories... I struggle with rating where one player out-performs in 5 of 8 categories, but 2 more categories (height and weigh) are factored in and makes the other guy "more athletic". Especially when weighing more is a plus... look at that category - that's seriously weird, you have to admit. Think about it's actually saying that if Green packed on a few pounds, he'd be a better prospect - because his 40, 20, and 10 wouldn't suffer much. That he, too could be a statistical 10.0... And by that, my argument isn't ridiculous - it's actually a pretty good example of the flaws in the grading system - which makes it brilliant, if ya ask me. LMAO

    Don't get me wrong, analytics SHOULD play a role. But, you can't blindly look at those numbers because like any statistics, they can be manipulated. Otherwise, we'd have a league full of Tony Mandarich's. Instead, those numbers should point you in a general direction, but you gotta WATCH the guy to see if the same measurements = Hines Ward or Markus Wheaton

    Now, if you're going to put words in my mouth, I'll flip it and say that YOU said Creed was significantly more athletic than Green. I didn't say *significantly*. What i did say was that the difference was enough that Green was clearly a better fit.

    Like i said, length absolutely is a factor of how you'll play the position, but even that isn't everything (See: Paxton Lynch, Brock Osweiler). But, where we clearly disagree is weight as a factor of athleticism (Aaron Donald and his 300 lbs aint the same as everyone else's 300 lbs). Hell, i'd rather see body fat might make more sense. Otherwise, if i run, cut, jump, catch, block, tackle better, well, then I'm better. And it doesn't matter if I'm 305 or 350...

    Having said all of that, we're both splitting hairs here. (I dont think it was this thread) but, i've said that I would have been ok with Creed as the pick simply because 0 sacks as a pass blocker is a phenomenal thing. But, i watched his tape and he simply stalemates, whether in the run game or pass game. It's fine in the pass game because you're trying to keep him away from the QB. In the run game, you're kinda leaving the LOS clogged if you're not moving guys.
    So what you are saying is size doesn't matter, it's what you do with it that counts?

    There was another Steeler that was deemed too small to play in the NFL at his position. Lambert played at around 220 lbs back when it was normal for LBs to tip the scales at 240/260 lbs.

    And your point on stalemating is spot on. Saw too much of that from the Steelers OL last season. They need more than stalemates. Dotson-Green-DD should win some battles this season.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJ-STEELER View Post
    so you don't think its an important position? cool
    What’s wrong with gentry?
    I remember lots of fans telling everyone how great he was going to be.
    Update:
    In the last decade, 25% of the league has won a super bowl(the Steelers aren't one of them) and now 50% have as many or more playoff wins as the Steelers.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    What’s wrong with gentry?
    I remember lots of fans telling everyone how great he was going to be.
    yeah, I remember Steel Maniac telling us how dangerous Gentry was going to be "down the seams."
    Steel Maniac predicted no RBs would be chosen in the 1st round, so of course we selected:

    1(24) Najee Harris RB Alabama


  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Blitz View Post
    But the Steelers have kind of forced us to wear 1 year glasses by bringing Ben back on a 1 year dummy contract.

    Ding ding ding. And that explains the first 2 picks. I did not support the decision to bring Ben back, but once that decision was made I suppose I am all for drafting skilled offensive players who can support the win now strategy, however ill-advised that strategy was. I don't think this will end well, but am hoping I am wrong.

  10. #60
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    Just to point out Green has more then 4 games at center as I heard on depot podcast. I think he had to do it in more then a few games but did not start the game at center. Probably a good stat to find is how many snaps he has had at center. The depot guy probably said it in the podcast and I can’t remember or missed it.
    Now that stat does not matter Vs Creed. But Vs the whitewater kid it does. Less projection of Green being a center.

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