Dan Moore is the worst tackle in football

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  • WindyCitySteel
    Legend
    • Nov 2011
    • 14048

    Dan Moore is the worst tackle in football

    According to PFF. Big Ben says he's "killing it", though. Passive aggressive shot at Pickett?

    Former Pittsburgh Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger retired after the 2021 season. The Steelers have played 19 games since then. And yet you look at the starting offense, and already there are only four players remaining—WR Diontae Johnson, TE Pat Freiermuth, and Roethlisberger’s two offensive tackles, LT Dan Moore Jr. and RT Chukwuma Okorafor. That’s a […]
  • papillon
    Legend
    • Mar 2008
    • 11238

    #2
    Ben loves his offensive linemen, always did and always will.

    Pappy
    sigpic

    The 2024 Pittsburgh Steeler draft

    1.20 - Troy Fautanu, T, Washington
    2.51 - Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia
    3.84 - Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan
    3.98 - Payton Wilson, LB, UNC
    4.119 - Mason McCprmick, OG, S. Dakota St
    7.178 - Logan Lee, DT, Iowa
    7.195 -

    "Football is a physical game, well, it used to be anyways" - Mel Blount

    Comment

    • Captain Lemming
      Legend
      • Jun 2008
      • 15722

      #3
      Originally posted by WindyCitySteel
      According to PFF. Big Ben says he's "killing it", though. Passive aggressive shot at Pickett?

      https://steelersdepot.com/2023/09/yo...ay-vs-garrett/
      I know. With his allowing his man to excel beyond his normal pff greatness with one tackle and ZERO PRESSURES he let Myles Garret have a better game than TJ or Highsmith.



      Yes you read that right. Per pff Garrett and his one tackle was the best defender IN THE GAME.

      But what do I know. Me and BEN ROETHLISBERGER don’t know Jack as we did not chart every play like those pff experts we just used COUNTING STATS like sacks and touchdowns.

      It is the subtle nuances that go unseen by your average fan that Myles does SO WELL that wins games.
      Last edited by Captain Lemming; 09-20-2023, 01:28 PM.
      sigpic



      In view of the fact that Mike Tomlin has matched Cowhers record I give him the designation:

      TCFCLTC-
      The Coach Formerly Considered Less Than Cowher

      Comment

      • Captain Lemming
        Legend
        • Jun 2008
        • 15722

        #4
        Originally posted by Captain Lemming
        I know. With his allowing his man to excel beyond his normal pff greatness with one tackle and ZERO PRESSURES he let Myles Garret have a better game than TJ or Highsmith.



        Yes you read that right.
        But what do I know. Me and BEN ROETHLISBERGER don’t know Jack as we did not chart every play like those pff experts we just used COUNTING STATS like sacks and touchdowns.

        It is the subtle nuances that go unseen by your average fan that Myles does SO WELL that wins games.
        Oh this thread was such a mistake Windy… we gone have fun with this.
        sigpic



        In view of the fact that Mike Tomlin has matched Cowhers record I give him the designation:

        TCFCLTC-
        The Coach Formerly Considered Less Than Cowher

        Comment

        • flippy
          Legend
          • Dec 2008
          • 17088

          #5
          I really think the problem is the PFF guys don’t necessarily know the play call and player’s responsibility on a given play.

          I would trust Ben would have a better idea of the play call and a lot more context and would trust his call on Moore over PFF.

          It’s near impossible to grade someone vs what is expected of them without know exactly what was expected on a play.
          sigpic

          Comment

          • steelguin
            Backup
            • Oct 2016
            • 115

            #6
            Originally posted by flippy
            I really think the problem is the PFF guys don?t necessarily know the play call and player?s responsibility on a given play.

            I would trust Ben would have a better idea of the play call and a lot more context and would trust his call on Moore over PFF.

            It?s near impossible to grade someone vs what is expected of them without know exactly what was expected on a play.
            They grade him as bad all the time however, he kept Bosa and Garett off the stat sheet.

            Comment

            • flippy
              Legend
              • Dec 2008
              • 17088

              #7
              Originally posted by steelguin
              They grade him as bad all the time however, he kept Bosa and Garett off the stat sheet.
              Seems like that?s his primary goal.

              and I didn?t notice Dan getting a ton of help. And Isaac seems to be playing poorly next to him which isn?t helping.

              I would say his play is mixed. He gives effort, isn?t the most athletic/fast guy but in general he?s ok in pass pro.

              run blocking might not be his forte and the biggest reason to be excited for Broderick to get in the mix sooner than later.

              I also understand not wanting Broderick to have to deal with Bosa and Garrett immediately that could hurt his confidence if he would have struggled.
              sigpic

              Comment

              • SteelerOfDeVille
                Legend
                • May 2008
                • 8823

                #8
                Originally posted by flippy
                Seems like that?s his primary goal.
                I would think that it should be, right?
                2013 MNF Executive Champion!

                DeVille's final Mock
                1.20 - Tailiese Fuaga, OT, Oregon St
                2.51 - Zach Frazier, C, WVU
                3.84 - Luke Mccaffery, WR, Rice
                3.98 - Andru Phillips, CB, Kentucky
                4.117 - Maason Smith, DT, LSU
                6.178 - Travis Glover, OT, Ga State
                6.195 - Dillon Johnson, RB, Washington

                Comment

                • WindyCitySteel
                  Legend
                  • Nov 2011
                  • 14048

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Captain Lemming
                  I know. With his allowing his man to excel beyond his normal pff greatness with one tackle and ZERO PRESSURES he let Myles Garret have a better game than TJ or Highsmith.



                  Yes you read that right. Per pff Garrett and his one tackle was the best defender IN THE GAME.

                  But what do I know. Me and BEN ROETHLISBERGER don’t know Jack as we did not chart every play like those pff experts we just used COUNTING STATS like sacks and touchdowns.

                  It is the subtle nuances that go unseen by your average fan that Myles does SO WELL that wins games.
                  Moore lost just about every single pass rush battle with Garrett, it's not Garrett's fault they got the ball out fast.

                  Actually, it is.

                  TJ loafed on his pass rush on the TD play and thus was in position for an easy scoop and untouched score when the ball bounced to him.

                  This isn't FFL, it's a cumulative grade of EVERY snap.
                  Last edited by WindyCitySteel; 09-20-2023, 09:06 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Northern_Blitz
                    Legend
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 22297

                    #10
                    At least part of this is because PFF doesn't adjust for expectations vs. quality of competition (at least that's my understanding). I don't know how many of Moore's snaps were against Bosa and Garrett. But I wouldn't be surprise if he has a higher %age of snaps against elite edge rushers than any other OT in the league.

                    I don't think he's a great OT. But I don't think he's the worst OT in the league either.

                    Comment

                    • Northern_Blitz
                      Legend
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 22297

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Captain Lemming
                      I know. With his allowing his man to excel beyond his normal pff greatness with one tackle and ZERO PRESSURES he let Myles Garret have a better game than TJ or Highsmith.



                      Yes you read that right. Per pff Garrett and his one tackle was the best defender IN THE GAME.

                      But what do I know. Me and BEN ROETHLISBERGER don’t know Jack as we did not chart every play like those pff experts we just used COUNTING STATS like sacks and touchdowns.

                      It is the subtle nuances that go unseen by your average fan that Myles does SO WELL that wins games.
                      Not weighting for plays that have massive impact is another thing that many might argue with re: PFF.

                      It tells you who was consistently better.

                      But if you score a DTD, you give your team a ~90% chance to win. That matters more than getting a bunch of pressures without getting home. But that's not how PFF grading works.

                      Which is fine. It's good to know who is consistently making good plays. But so often pro sports is about whether or not you made the big impact play. That was the difference in the game on Monday. TJ and Highsmith both scored (and God we needed it).

                      Basically, AH won the game for us.

                      If I had to pick one metric, I'd pick something like EPA that tries to quantify impact of a player on the win / loss. But we don't have to pick just one metric. I think PFF is a good tool if we don't try to pretend it's the only thing that matters or that it provides the answer to a question it doesn't really ask.

                      Aside: Windy, what was KP's PFF grade in weeks 1 and 2?
                      Last edited by Northern_Blitz; 09-20-2023, 10:05 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Northern_Blitz
                        Legend
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 22297

                        #12
                        Originally posted by WindyCitySteel
                        Moore lost just about every single pass rush battle with Garrett, it's not Garrett's fault they got the ball out fast.

                        Actually, it is.

                        TJ loafed on his pass rush on the TD play and thus was in position for an easy scoop and untouched score when the ball bounced to him.

                        This isn't FFL, it's a cumulative grade of EVERY snap.
                        Which is the good thing about PFF. And one of the things that makes it imperfect.

                        Every choice in a model is a trade off.

                        No model is perfect.

                        You want to look at the inputs from all the models to average out the biases. And before you say PFF isn't biased, there is bias built into every methodology. I like that it's objective. And that it grades every play. And that it gives a number to evaluate a player.

                        But we shouldn't confuse the PFF grade with the answer to: "how valuable was the player in that game" (which is maybe the most important question to ask). The value of the consistency probably depends a lot on the position too. Pickens mostly had a bad game. But his TD is a big part of the win. Outside of the TD and the sack, maybe MG had a better game than TJ. But the TD and the sack were huge plays that (1) put 6 points on the board that we all know the O wasn't going to get and (2) gets them into 4th down and 14 with 1:00 in the half so they have to settle for a FG.

                        Those are hugely impactful plays that TJ made even if he had a lower win rate than Garrett. Those two plays alone are worth at least 6 points with some probability that they were worth another 4...or at least 3 times the increased probability of a miss at 55 yards vs. 48 if it was just an incompletion. Garret had a better win rate, but he never got home on the QB. Even though Kenny (like Watson) isn't particularly good at avoiding sacks.

                        Comment

                        • Northern_Blitz
                          Legend
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 22297

                          #13
                          Originally posted by SteelerOfDeVille
                          I would think that it should be, right?
                          Yep.

                          "Look, Moore. We know that you're not as talented as Bosa or Garrett. Your job going into these first two games is to make sure that these guys don't win the game for them."

                          This is certainly the same type of advice that the Browns OTs got re: TJ and maybe even Highsmith. Imagine if going into the game, someone told them "All you have to do is not let their top 2 edge rushers score 2 DTDs and we win an easy one." <-- Note: this is basically what every team will be saying until Kenny / Najee / Canada show that we have an offense that is going to at least get positive yardage in every quarter of the game (0/2 on that score so far this season).

                          Comment

                          • Oviedo
                            Legend
                            • May 2008
                            • 23592

                            #14
                            Moore faced two of the NFL?s defensive stars in Boss and Garrett?how did they do?

                            that is the only evaluation that matters
                            "My team, may they always be right, but right or wrong...MY TEAM!"

                            Comment

                            • Buzz
                              Legend
                              • Dec 2017
                              • 7957

                              #15
                              I don't care much about PFF's ranking system, or even if Moore is the worst starting tackle in the NFL ... but the eye test tells me his play has not been nearly good enough, and that's a problem

                              somehow, we have to get this OL fixed

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