Dan Moore is the worst tackle in football

[pfelix73]

I don't care much about PFF's ranking system, or even if Moore is the worst starting tackle in the NFL ... but the eye test tells me his play has not been nearly good enough, and that's a problem

somehow, we have to get this OL fixed

I would suggest that you dvr some games and go back a day later and re watch the OL. Re watch how they are overmatched with 6-7 defenders. and also re watch how some of the RBs are missing assignments to help pass block. Warren missed one Monday night which led to a sack, but Moore was probably the blamed one. Watch how when the Steelers go with a 3 or 4 WR set, they (OL) get much better blocking with 5 on 4 or 5 on 5. Use that eye test and re watch the games and you might come away thinking that damn, the OC might really be the reason for all of the 'problems'

[Buzz]

I would suggest that you dvr some games and go back a day later and re watch the OL. Re watch how they are overmatched with 6-7 defenders. and also re watch how some of the RBs are missing assignments to help pass block. Warren missed one Monday night which led to a sack, but Moore was probably the blamed one. Watch how when the Steelers go with a 3 or 4 WR set, they (OL) get much better blocking with 5 on 4 or 5 on 5. Use that eye test and re watch the games and you might come away thinking that damn, the OC might really be the reason for all of the 'problems'

I believe the OC is the biggest reason for the problems, for sure
but it's apparent to me that the OL is not as good as we were led to believe coming into this season

[Joel Buchsbaum]

I would suggest that you dvr some games and go back a day later and re watch the OL. Re watch how they are overmatched with 6-7 defenders. and also re watch how some of the RBs are missing assignments to help pass block. Warren missed one Monday night which led to a sack, but Moore was probably the blamed one. Watch how when the Steelers go with a 3 or 4 WR set, they (OL) get much better blocking with 5 on 4 or 5 on 5. Use that eye test and re watch the games and you might come away thinking that damn, the OC might really be the reason for all of the 'problems'

You are right to blame the OC some. But he doest block players, kick the football, throw the football, or executive the plays. Does he? No, but some of the players who do that on the Steelers, well suck.

IMO, the Steelers problems on offense roughly 70% players and 30% coaching. Now the coaching is a weakness , but our Tackle play and our Quarterback play flat out stink. Agreed?

A smart defensive coach loads up the box when playing bad OT's and QB's really limiting the ground game! Now an offensive coach can do something about it by playing his best line up vs. the run and players like Washington and Jones who are better run blocking. And playing a more explosive back to take advantage of it. He can play more 2 TE sets to help give Pickett more time and slow down the pass rush. He can call some screen plays to keep the DE's honest form rushing the passer, and ripping our tackles. And he can call play action, to expose a defense that is too aggressive and burn them. I call it football Jujutsu type of coaching. Tomlin and Canada suck, I tell you or anyone who's willing to listen.

[WindyCitySteel]

At least part of this is because PFF doesn't adjust for expectations vs. quality of competition (at least that's my understanding). I don't know how many of Moore's snaps were against Bosa and Garrett. But I wouldn't be surprise if he has a higher %age of snaps against elite edge rushers than any other OT in the league.

I don't think he's a great OT. But I don't think he's the worst OT in the league either.

Everyone grades a 50 if you factor in expectations and quality of competition. And how do you baseline that quality measurement if you have to grade with bias? This is like the old week 1 joke that all the 1-0 teams are overrated because they beat a bunch of winless teams.

Grading the execution of a play without preconceived notions and bias is exactly the kind of grading you should want. Moore's grades should improve against lesser EDGE rushers, should they be lowered in those cases?

[WindyCitySteel]

I believe the OC is the biggest reason for the problems, for sure
but it's apparent to me that the OL is not as good as we were led to believe coming into this season

I was never sold on anyone on that line being better than average, save for Seaumalo, and that was just on what I read, never watched him play.

[NorthCoast]

Not weighting for plays that have massive impact is another thing that many might argue with re: PFF.

It tells you who was consistently better.

But if you score a DTD, you give your team a ~90% chance to win. That matters more than getting a bunch of pressures without getting home. But that's not how PFF grading works.

Which is fine. It's good to know who is consistently making good plays. But so often pro sports is about whether or not you made the big impact play. That was the difference in the game on Monday. TJ and Highsmith both scored (and God we needed it).

Basically, AH won the game for us.

If I had to pick one metric, I'd pick something like EPA that tries to quantify impact of a player on the win / loss. But we don't have to pick just one metric. I think PFF is a good tool if we don't try to pretend it's the only thing that matters or that it provides the answer to a question it doesn't really ask.

Aside: Windy, what was KP's PFF grade in weeks 1 and 2?

They also don't account for opponent strength, an obvious flaw. Playing Bosa, then Garrett can put half the LTs at the bottom of the chart. Next up, Maxx Crosby... not a slouch either. It's the same argument people use with Pickett. Looks terrible against good defenses, looks ok against average.

KP is ranked 31st in the NFL (just in front of Bryce Young) by PFF. So at least he's not last but quite a fall from PFF's last season's ranking.

[WindyCitySteel]

They also don't account for opponent strength, an obvious flaw.

Why is that a flaw? That's like saying your grade should be artificially raised in Advanced Calculus and Quantam Physics classes because they're harder, and lowered in African Studies.

The grades are the grades.

[feltdizz]

PFF is ridiculously flawed.

If Garrett “wins” his one on one but doesn’t make a tackle or hit on the QB he is still rewarded more than Watt and Highsmith who have sacks, INT’s and fumble recoveries.

Ask yourself this question.

Who’s performances would you rather have last game?

Garrett
Highsmith
Watt

[NorthCoast]

Why is that a flaw? That's like saying your grade should be artificially raised in Advanced Calculus and Quantam Physics classes because they're harder, and lowered in African Studies.

The grades are the grades.

It's fine if you treat the grade as an absolute but when you are ranking against others it makes a big difference.

[feltdizz]

They also don't account for opponent strength, an obvious flaw. Playing Bosa, then Garrett can put half the LTs at the bottom of the chart. Next up, Maxx Crosby... not a slouch either. It's the same argument people use with Pickett. Looks terrible against good defenses, looks ok against average.

KP is ranked 31st in the NFL (just in front of Bryce Young) by PFF. So at least he's not last but quite a fall from PFF's last season's ranking.

Told yall Pickett would be better than the 2023 first pick at QB

[WindyCitySteel]

PFF is ridiculously flawed.

If Garrett “wins” his one on one but doesn’t make a tackle or hit on the QB he is still rewarded more than Watt and Highsmith who have sacks, INT’s and fumble recoveries.

Ask yourself this question.

Who’s performances would you rather have last game?

Garrett
Highsmith
Watt

If Garrett jaked on a pass rush and a fumble bounced to him so he could waltz into the end zone untouched, would you call it a great play on his part?

[WindyCitySteel]

They also don't account for opponent strength, an obvious flaw. Playing Bosa, then Garrett can put half the LTs at the bottom of the chart. Next up, Maxx Crosby... not a slouch either. It's the same argument people use with Pickett. Looks terrible against good defenses, looks ok against average.

KP is ranked 31st in the NFL (just in front of Bryce Young) by PFF. So at least he's not last but quite a fall from PFF's last season's ranking.

Does Kenny get the strength of competition pass from you guys, or is that reserved for Dan Moore?

[feltdizz]

If Garrett jaked on a pass rush and a fumble bounced to him so he could waltz into the end zone untouched, would you call it a great play on his part?

I listed Watt AND Highsmith

who forced that fumble? Highsmith

who had a sack last game? Watt.

and yes, if Garrett scooped a fumble and scored the TD that won the game I would call it a great play if I was a Stains fan.

[feltdizz]

Does Kenny get the strength of competition pass from you guys, or is that reserved for Dan Moore?

agreed.

but a few have pointed out that we have played 2 great defenses so far so at least some are acknowledging it.

[Northern_Blitz]

Why is that a flaw? That's like saying your grade should be artificially raised in Advanced Calculus and Quantam Physics classes because they're harder, and lowered in African Studies.

The grades are the grades.

IMO, it depends on the question you are asking.

PFF is asking "how consistent was play X in a given game (that I think they can subdivide into different categories i.e. run / pass, maybe even zone vs. man?)".

Other metrics ask "how will did player X do in a given situation vs an average of all players in that same situation".

This is why there's no one metric that works for everything. Because there are different questions to ask.

I'm in the middle of listening to All Things Covered. I get that PP is biased in this situation, but he doesn't seem to know which plays PFF graded as being a catch against him. I assumed that if you had a subscription, they'd tell you that (they may not have a sub)? Like "PP gave up N catches on plays i=1 to N, that happened at times A,B,C,D,E?".

He threw out some possible options for what they may have been and was talking about his assignment. He seems to suggest that maybe PFF graders for that game don't understand how responsibilities in zone concepts work. Of course, he's a player and has his own biases.

Does PFF just do something like "closest defender to the ball gave up the catch?"

The interesting part is PP says to BM, let's get some PFF guys on here and we can talk about it. BM says "we can make that happen". I think that would be very interesting. To have a long form discussion between players and PFF graders to talk about how it works and really break down where players feel like there are shortcomings. If PFF handled that kind of discussion well, I think it would (1) make more fans appreciate what they do and (2) help fans understand what their methods are and what question they are trying to ask (although they certainly benefit from those who think PFF grades are the answer to all questions).

My guess is that PFF would go full Peter Hotez on an invite like that, but who knows? They have their own podcast now, so maybe they would see an opportunity like this as a way to drive more traffic to their content (and ultimately sell more subs).